Atheism and humanism are completely contradictory

Author: Conservallectual

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3RU7AL
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@K_Michael
"ignorance exists in the map, not in the territory. If I am ignorant about a phenomenon, that is a fact about my own state of mind, not a fact about the phenomenon itself."
Double_R
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Different contexts is not synonymous with different meaning.
Which is what I said in post #932 (in reference to the subject matter).
That was before post 938 when you asked me this;

you can easily nip this in the bud right now by giving me an example of an objective fact having a different meaning in different contexts, considering that’s what you implied in post #930.
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@K_Michael
Objective: of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought
none of your examples are "independent of individual thought"
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@K_Michael
perhaps what you're thinking of as "objective fact" is actually more precisely described by the term AXIOM
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@3RU7AL
none of your examples are "independent of individual thought"
yes, they are. They are true independent of what any individual thinks.
perhaps what you're thinking of as "objective fact" is actually more precisely described by the term AXIOM
An axiom is defined as "a statement or proposition which is regarded as being established, accepted, or self-evidently true." This is totally different from the definition that I gave, that each fact I listed is true independent of individual thought (i.e., not influenced by properties of the observer.)
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@zedvictor4
One might argue that if the stand-alone narrative data is verifiable, it is therefore objective. Nonetheless you cannot actually internally possess or lay claim to that objective data. You must always process it.
Whether or not I ever "know" or "verify" a fact, the fact already exists in reality. As an example, whether I "internally possess" knowledge on whether I'm wearing shoes, or if I only "process" it, I am already either wearing or not wearing shoes, and that is the objective fact, not my knowledge of it.
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@K_Michael
none of your examples are "independent of individual thought"
yes, they are. They are true independent of what any individual thinks.
at least one human mind is required in order to consider any of your example "objective facts" to be verifiable

having more than one human mind believe a piece of data (is "true") does not magically make that data "objective" ("independent of individual thought")

it simply makes that data "intersubjective" (shared by more than one mind)

for example, someone might claim that the jesus turned water into wine, and since more than one thinker believes this is an "objective fact" a case could be made that it qualifies as "independent of individual thought"

one of the key aspects of "objective" (that you seem to be overlooking) is "free from bias"
3RU7AL
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@K_Michael
perhaps what you're thinking of as "objective fact" is actually more precisely described by the term AXIOM
An axiom is defined as "a statement or proposition which is regarded as being established, accepted, or self-evidently true." This is totally different from the definition that I gave, that each fact I listed is true independent of individual thought (i.e., not influenced by properties of the observer.)
perhaps it might be useful if you might be kind enough to provide a few examples of "facts" that you do NOT think qualify as "objective facts"
3RU7AL
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@K_Michael
Whether or not I ever "know" or "verify" a fact, the fact already exists in reality.
are you familiar with the concept of "naïve realism" ?

K_Michael
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at least one human mind is required in order to consider any of your example "objective facts" to be verifiable

having more than one human mind believe a piece of data (is "true") does not magically make that data "objective" ("independent of individual thought")

Objective doesn't mean verifiable. For instance, we will never be able to know, much less verify, what Socrates's exact DNA sequence was, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't an exact answer that existed in reality.

since more than one thinker believes this is an "objective fact"
no, no, no. You're not understanding. Objectivity literally doesn't care what anyone believes. Either Jesus turned water into wine, or he didn't, and only one of those is a true, objective fact. The other is a false belief. Technically, all facts are true - there's no need to add the qualifier. In legal terms, a "false fact" would be called an false assertion. But whether one or two or 2 billion people believe it happened doesn't make any difference.

perhaps it might be useful if you might be kind enough to provide a few examples of "facts" that you do NOT think qualify as "objective facts"
Nothing comes to mind. Something that I might consider an objective fact like "God does not exist" is a statement of belief. In reality, my belief is either true or false. The statement "K_Michael believes that God does not exist" gets fuzzy really quickly though. A more intangible statement would be "KM is not afraid of the dark," because while my conscious brain is capable of rationally reasoning that my dark room is overwhelmingly likely to be safe just as my room is when lit, there is still a subconscious part of my brain that is hardwired to be more cautious and afraid of the dark, due to evolutionary pressures mostly relating to nocturnal predators. And this subconscious part of my brain can have a measurable impact on my body, such as an increased heart rate, so it definitely exists.

I'm still not sure I would characterize the statement "KM is not afraid of the dark" as being subjective though, merely overly broad, like saying gas cars don't use electricity, even though most do.


K_Michael
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@3RU7AL
are you familiar with the concept of "naïve realism"
Never heard of it before, but it seems directly opposed to how I understand the world.
I adhere to "the map is not the territory."
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@3RU7AL
@Double_R
i'm simply pointing out that there are precious few if any "facts" that are impervious to context
Maybe, but the “context” in which Double_R and I were discussing facts is always the same.
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@Double_R
An objective fact in this context has to be accepted as such, which requires a mental process to get to that point.
Like your acceptance of well being? Isn’t it then an objective foundational fact by that logic?
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@K_Michael
Nope, you can only assume to know a fact. By which time you will have processed that data.

Relative to you nothing exists unless you are able to process data.

See a shoe, feel a shoe = data input, data assessment and an internal personal conclusion.

So, are you wearing a shoe?

Yes.

How do you know?

Because I know it is there.

How do you know?

Because I can see it and feel it, and I have already processed that data. and concluded that I am wearing a shoe.

And did you not just reprocess said data in order to come to a secondary conclusion?

And so on.

The only place that shoe wearing data exists is in your head, rather than as an actual fact upon your foot.

Of course, it might actually be there, and a secondary data processing unit might attempt to confirm it.

But any secondary source of data is subject to all the above conditions.

Similarly, any data transfer between units and any subsequent assessments are also subject to all the above conditions.


In fact, the Universe only exists because we think it exists

Of course, I only think that is a fact.
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@zedvictor4
The only place that shoe wearing data exists is in your head, rather than as an actual fact upon your foot.
in the movie "a beautiful mind" the main character realizes that he has hallucinated other people, and even after he realizes this, he can still see and hear and even touch them

so at that point he is wary of meeting anyone new, and asks a "verified" human (someone who is known to be observable by multiple other humans) to "verify" any new person they've recently met
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@K_Michael
I adhere to "the map is not the territory."
everything you know is "map"

therefore, you cannot know "objective facts"
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@K_Michael
Objective doesn't mean verifiable. For instance, we will never be able to know, much less verify, what Socrates's exact DNA sequence was, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't an exact answer that existed in reality.
facts must be verifiable, quantifiable, empirically demonstrable and or logically-necessary

a "really real human socrates with dna" is none of these
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@K_Michael
perhaps it might be useful if you might be kind enough to provide a few examples of "facts" that you do NOT think qualify as "objective facts"
Nothing comes to mind. Something that I might consider an objective fact like "God does not exist" is a statement of belief. In reality, my belief is either true or false. The statement "K_Michael believes that God does not exist" gets fuzzy really quickly though. A more intangible statement would be "KM is not afraid of the dark," because while my conscious brain is capable of rationally reasoning that my dark room is overwhelmingly likely to be safe just as my room is when lit, there is still a subconscious part of my brain that is hardwired to be more cautious and afraid of the dark, due to evolutionary pressures mostly relating to nocturnal predators. And this subconscious part of my brain can have a measurable impact on my body, such as an increased heart rate, so it definitely exists.

I'm still not sure I would characterize the statement "KM is not afraid of the dark" as being subjective though, merely overly broad, like saying gas cars don't use electricity, even though most do.
REAL-TRUE-FACTS must be empirically demonstrable and or logically-necessary (and emotionally meaningless) (aka NOT opinion) QUANTA

OPINION must be unfalsifiable, personal, experiential, GNOSTIC, qualitative (and emotionally meaningful) (aka NOT fact) QUALIA
K_Michael
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@3RU7AL
everything you know is "map"

therefore, you cannot know "objective facts"
True, I can never have 100% confidence in any belief, but I can be 99.9999% sure, which is good enough for me.

facts must be verifiable, quantifiable, empirically demonstrable and or logically-necessary

a "really real human socrates with dna" is none of these
It is a fact that Socrates existed in that I am >99% confident that he existed, as per the historical consensus. I am likewise 99.9999% sure that all humans that exist or have existed possess a DNA sequence. The resulting syllogism is that Socrates had a DNA sequence.

OPINION must be unfalsifiable, personal, experiential, GNOSTIC, qualitative (and emotionally meaningful) (aka NOT fact) QUALIA
I have never seen someone insinuate that the past is all qualia before. I am not positing a specific DNA sequence that belonged to Socrates, only stating that the most logical (99.9999% certainty!) conclusion is that he had one. As for the other qualifiers you give here, you draw a false dichotomy.

Under fact, you posit the quality of "verifiable", while under opinion, you say "unfalsifiable." These are not mutually exclusive, nor do they cover all possible outcomes.

Verifiable and falsifiable are not the same. Verify is to confirm to be true, falsify is to confirm to be false. One can still put a hypothesis or belief in the middle ground, as of yet neither verified or falsified.

Outside of the venn diagram: I claim that there is a 100% undetectable dragon in my garage. It is invisible, inaudible, it doesn't breath or produce heat, if you splash paint or flour into the air it will drop through the dragon as if it were air. All of these caveats make it impossible to apply empirical evidence to the claim. I cannot prove that there isn't a dragon, only point out how unlikely it is to exist. Similarly, no matter how much one wants to believe a dragon is there, there is no way to prove that there is a dragon.

Verifiable but not falsifiable: The one that comes immediately to mind is the question of God. If God were to reveal himself directly to the world and start performing miracles to prove he is God, that would be pretty good evidence, though I suppose some people would insist on hallucinations or simulation theory. Theoretically God could just snap his fingers and give you perfect knowledge of everything, and then you would know 100%. However, even if we prove the Big Bang and evolution, etc., people can always claim that God exists, operating quietly in the background. You can never really prove that he doesn't exist, only assign low probabilities to it.

Verifiable and falsifiable: There is a regulation size football in my closet. This one has clear metrics. I can look in the finite space of my closet and see almost immediately if this is true or false. I specified regulation size to preclude the possibility of, say a microscopic football. I might even see a football and be required to go the extra step of measuring it against regulation parameters. If I don't see one after looking through my entire closet, then the claim has been falsified. If I do see one and it matches all of the regulations, then the claim has been verified.

Falsifiable but not verifiable: All crows are black. I can spend my entire life looking at crows and observing their color. If I see a single crow of a different color, the claim has been falsified. However, it is physically impossible for me to observe all crows that have ever existed, especially without time travel, so even if I have billions of data points in favor of black, I can never verify the claim, only place a high probability in favor based on empirical evidence.
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@3RU7AL
REAL-TRUE-FACTS must be empirically demonstrable and or logically-necessary (and emotionally meaningless) (aka NOT opinion) QUANTA
Please empirically demonstrate this, or show us how it is logically necessary.

OPINION must be unfalsifiable, personal, experiential, GNOSTIC, qualitative (and emotionally meaningful) (aka NOT fact) QUALIA
Is this just your opinion, or is it a fact?
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@3RU7AL
facts must be verifiable, quantifiable, empirically demonstrable and or logically-necessary
Please verify, quantify, and demonstrate why this is a factual statement.
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Imagine if /  when,  we started ,   Human sacrifice    /  offering stuff to the gods. 
Imagine if it uncannily looked like it ummmm. Like it worked. 

Imagine witnessing ten babies getting thrown off a cliff ,  then it rains  for a week. 
 
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@3RU7AL
everything you know is "map"

therefore, you cannot know "objective facts"
If you can't know objective facts then why are you telling us about objective facts
K_Michael
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Imagine witnessing ten babies getting thrown off a cliff ,  then it rains  for a week. 
It would take more than one iteration to convince me, but if you could reliably affect the weather by human sacrifice then that would be strong evidence of a god/godlike power (although that could just be sufficiently advanced aliens pulling a prank on us).
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@Tarik
An objective fact in this context has to be accepted as such, which requires a mental process to get to that point.
Like your acceptance of well being? Isn’t it then an objective foundational fact by that logic?
No, not like well being.

Well being itself isn't a fact, it's a value. It's the thing I chose to sit at the foundation of my morality. Determining whether something advances or conflicts with well being is a matter of fact, but that part comes after accepting well being as the foundation.

Why do I feel like I’ve explained this to you a dozen times already?
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@Sidewalker
everything you know is "map"

therefore, you cannot know "objective facts"
If you can't know objective facts then why are you telling us about objective facts
i'm pointing out to you that your definition of "objective fact" is logically-incoherent (as it relates to human knowledge)
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Imagine if /  when,  we started ,   Human sacrifice    /  offering stuff to the gods. 
Imagine if it uncannily looked like it ummmm. Like it worked. 

Imagine witnessing ten babies getting thrown off a cliff ,  then it rains  for a week. 
In late 1915, San Diego hired a "moisture accelerator" named Charles Hatfield during a drought. He was said to have delivered on his promise to deliver enough rain to fill the empty reservoirs, but there was too much rain, causing a deadly flood. [**]
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@Sidewalker
facts must be verifiable, quantifiable, empirically demonstrable and or logically-necessary
Please verify, quantify, and demonstrate why this is a factual statement.
it is logically-necessary
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@Sidewalker
OPINION must be unfalsifiable, personal, experiential, GNOSTIC, qualitative (and emotionally meaningful) (aka NOT fact) QUALIA
Is this just your opinion, or is it a fact?
it is a coherent definition

i'm more than happy to consider your personally preferred alternative
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@3RU7AL
facts must be verifiable, quantifiable, empirically demonstrable and or logically-necessary
Please verify, quantify, and demonstrate why this is a factual statement.
it is logically-necessary
It is logically necessary that facts must be logically necessary, did you mean logically circular?

How about explicating this, besides just proclaiming it, is there an argument?