Public-Choice v. Oromagi - The 2020 Election Should Be Decertified

Author: Public-Choice

Posts

Total: 83
Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 19
Posts: 1,065
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
I did a forum post not as a delaying tactic, but because I tend to have extremely specific rules for my debates and I didn't want to waste time setting up multiple debates when we can just hash out what we want and don't want for our debate.

TOPIC:

The 2020 Election Should Be Decertified Due To Illegal Election Activities That Sufficiently Challenge The Results Of The 2020 Election

STANCES:

PRO must defend the above claim.

CON must argue there was not enough election fraud to decertify the election

DEFINITIONS:

The following sections of the U.S. Code will determine the standards for illegal election activities:

- 18 U.S. Code Chapter 29 - ELECTIONS AND POLITICAL ACTIVITIES

That is the section of the U.S. Code that deals with federal election crimes. If you can think of any other pertinent sections of the U.S. Code feel free to list them.

For definitions, the U.S. Code, in its entirety, shall supplement the definitions, and where the U.S. Code fails to provide a definition, then The Law's law dictionary will be used:

And if neither can provide a definition, then Merriam Webster will be used.

"Sufficiently challenge" means that illegal election activities more ballots than the margin of victory for Then-candidate Joseph R. Biden.

RULES:

By participating in this debate, PRO and CON agree to adhere to the following rules:

1. Use of logical fallacies are strictly prohibited. Any logical fallacy that exists in this Wikipedia page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies is banned from the debate. All logical fallacies shall be defined according to this Wikipedia webpage. Any deliberate usage of a logical fallacy results in immediate forfeiture and admittance of defeat. Accidental usage can be rectified by not using the fallacy again and moving on with the debate.

2. The rules and definitions of logic shall come from the webpage newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Logic, and not Merriam Webster's online Dictionary or the Wikipedia page. This debate shall be governed by the laws of logic, meaning burden of proof is required by both parties.

3. Any propaganda techniques as defined, outlined, and explained in this wikipedia article are banned from usage:

4. Any compliance techniques as defined, outlined, and explained in this wikipedia article are banned from usage:

5. The rules of grammar and proper english shall come from Farlex's grammar book available here:
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/The-Farlex-Grammar-Book.htm. And they will be followed strictly. Deliberate attempts to use gibberish english result in forfeiture of debate by the person who committed the action.

6. Using alternative definitions from the ones listed in the above sources is strictly prohibited and results in forfeiture of debate.

7. For the purposes of this debate, evidence is defined by entry 1, definition 1b in Merriam Webster's Online Dictionary (and only including entry 1, definition 1b of testimony) and shall also not break any of the debate rules.

8. Willfully and knowingly disobeying these rules repeatedly results in immediate forfeiture of debate.

Does this sound good to you?
Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 19
Posts: 1,065
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
-->
@oromagi
Any changes or do you accept?

Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 19
Posts: 1,065
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
One adendum.

CON must argue there was not enough illegal election activities to sufficiently challenge the results of the election

Sorry. I forgot to change that earlier. This went through a few revisions before I posted it lol.
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
TOPIC:  The 2020 Election Should Be Decertified Due To Illegal Election Activities That Sufficiently Challenge The Results Of The 2020 Election
  • I prefer public policy debate to identify the governmental entity to enact the policy.  
How about:

Resolved:  THE USFG should decertify the 2020 US Presidential Election due to illegal election activities sufficient to deny Biden's victory
STANCES:
PRO must defend the above claim.
CON must argue there was not enough election fraud to decertify the election
  • fine
DEFINITIONS:
The following sections of the U.S. Code will determine the standards for illegal election activities:

18 U.S. Code Chapter 29 - ELECTIONS AND POLITICAL ACTIVITIES

That is the section of the U.S. Code that deals with federal election crimes. If you can think of any other pertinent sections of the U.S. Code feel free to list them.

For definitions, the U.S. Code, in its entirety, shall supplement the definitions, and where the U.S. Code fails to provide a definition, then The Law's law dictionary will be used:

And if neither can provide a definition, then Merriam Webster will be used.
  • I have no problem with relying on US law, legal code, constitution, etc.

"Sufficiently challenge" means that illegal election activities more ballots than the margin of victory for Then-candidate Joseph R. Biden.
  • This term seems awkward but is also missing a verb, I think
RULES:

By participating in this debate, PRO and CON agree to adhere to the following rules:

1. Use of logical fallacies are strictly prohibited. Any logical fallacy that exists in this Wikipedia page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies is banned from the debate. All logical fallacies shall be defined according to this Wikipedia webpage. Any deliberate usage of a logical fallacy results in immediate forfeiture and admittance of defeat. Accidental usage can be rectified by not using the fallacy again and moving on with the debate.
  • Such a rule is the calling card of fake skeptics.  A structurally broken or informally irrelevant argument is less important than the truth value of any conclusion, yet you make no rule against being wrong or deliberately lying. 
  • To quote the Ethical Skeptic:
    • "Most faking skeptics do not grasp principles of soundness, predicate and logical calculus, nor the role of induction inference in the first place. ‘Facts’ are the first rung on the hierarchy which they possess the mental bandwidth to understand and debate."
    • Faking skeptics seek to distract from the core modus ponens of a falsification argument by pulling it down into the mud of circumstantial ‘facts’ instead; relying upon the reality that most people cannot discern falsification from inference.
    • Informal ‘fallacies’ sound like crushing intellectual blows in an argument, when in fact most of the time they are not. These are tool of those who seek to win at all costs, even if upon an apparent technicality. An arguer who possesses genuine concern about the subject, is not distracted by irrelevant or partially salient technicality.
  • Nevertheless, I'll accept this rule since in my experience every debater I've met who has employed this rule breaks it with self-destructive regularity.
2. The rules and definitions of logic shall come from the webpage newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Logic, and not Merriam Webster's online Dictionary or the Wikipedia page. This debate shall be governed by the laws of logic, meaning burden of proof is required by both parties.
  • OBJECTION:  The New  World Encyclopedia is "an Internet encyclopedia that, in part, selects and claims to rewrite certain Wikipedia articles through a focus on Unification values.  The Unification Church (the Moonies) is a Korean personality cult with important ties to Right-Wing extremist organizations worldwide.  The Unification Church also owns the Washington Times along with other Right-biased media entities in the US.
  • Since the New World Encyclopedia just steals all of Wikipedia and then edits the parts their leaders don't like, why can't we just agree to use Wikipedia for commonplace understandings including the use of logic?
3. Any propaganda techniques as defined, outlined, and explained in this wikipedia article are banned from usage:
  • Strange rule.  By your definition any repetition of Trump's "big lie" fails a common propoganda technique.
4. Any compliance techniques as defined, outlined, and explained in this wikipedia article are banned from usage:
  • Another strange rule.  By any measure, your draconian bans on  fallacies and Propaganda techniques are classic examples of COMPLIANCE GAINING.  Your attempt to limit logic rules to those approved by Korean Cult leaders are likewise classic COMPLIANCE GAINING.
5. The rules of grammar and proper english shall come from Farlex's grammar book available here:
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/The-Farlex-Grammar-Book.htm. And they will be followed strictly. Deliberate attempts to use gibberish english result in forfeiture of debate by the person who committed the action.
Another weird choice.  Why rely on a grammar book that boast of 10,000 copies sold when more tested books of grammar have hundreds of times more sales.  Strunk & White is my personal favorite.

6. Using alternative definitions from the ones listed in the above sources is strictly prohibited and results in forfeiture of debate.
and yet the only thing you've defined is "sufficiently challenge" and then missing some essential words, I think.  The current definition is not sensible.

7. For the purposes of this debate, evidence is defined by entry 1, definition 1b in Merriam Webster's Online Dictionary (and only including entry 1, definition 1b of testimony) and shall also not break any of the debate rules.

that is "something that furnishes proof TESTIMONY

fine

8. Willfully and knowingly disobeying these rules repeatedly results in immediate forfeiture of debate.
  • willful or knowing are impossible standards to prove in an online debate.  How can I be expected to read your mind?
Does this sound good to you?
we also need to agree on 

Time for argument:  3 days or more
Voting system: Open
Voting period: Two weeks or one month
Point system Four points
Rating mode Rated
Number of arguments: 4 or 5
Characters per argument 10,000 or less

I've lately been preferring 5 rounds @ 5000cpa





oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
CON must argue there was not enough illegal election activities to sufficiently challenge the results of the election
well there is no minimally defined standard.  As we have seen, Trump challenged the results hundreds of times without ever successfully proving in a single illegal activity.

How about:  no proof exists for sufficient illegal activities to overturn the official presidential election result


3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
should elections be held to a standard of "proven safe and secure"

or simply

NOt "proven unsafe and insecure"
Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 19
Posts: 1,065
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
-->
@oromagi
Ok. So there were a few misunderstandings between what I wrote and what it was interpreted as.

Firstly, the compliance gaining rules listed on Wikipedia are not for cult propaganda. They are persuasion and sales tactics that are illogical forms of argumentation. There's cult compliance gaining and sales/persuasion compliance gaining. The Wikipedia page is for sales and persuasion compliance gaining.

The propaganda techniques simply meant that you or I can't implement a propaganda technique as an argument. Additionally, cult programming relies on logical fallacies and propaganda techniques, so I felt absolutely no need to add an additional rule for cult programming, since it is already largely banned from the debate.

Good catch on the encyclopedia. I simply chose it because it was a thorough read. I replaced it. I sense authorities matter more than content to you, which is cool. You can do you. I updated the rules accordingly.

I like Farlex's grammar book because it is extremely thorough and accurate. It is also ordered in a very logical way that makes it easy to browse and use. But I switched it to grammarbook.com, which is one of the OGs of grammar books and also considered one of the most widely held authorities in the field of grammar.

Rule 6 means using any source for definitions that isn't the U.S. Code or Law Dictionary or Merriam Webster or any other previously listed source isn't allowed. So, like, you can't go to Oxford's dictionary to define fraud when the U.S. Code already defines it. That is all I meant. If you can think of a clearer way to write that, I'm all ears.
Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 19
Posts: 1,065
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
-->
@oromagi
Anywho... revision 2:

TOPIC:

THE USFG should decertify the 2020 US Presidential Election due to illegal election activities sufficient to deny Biden's victory

STANCES:

PRO must argue there was a sufficient number of ballots affected by illegal election activities to decertify the election.

CON must argue there was not a sufficient number of ballots affected by illegal election activities to decertify the election.

DEFINITIONS:

The following sources will determine the standards for illegal election activities:

- U.S. Code and U.S. Constitution

For definitions, the U.S. Code, in its entirety, shall supplement the definitions, and where the U.S. Code fails to provide a definition, then The Law's law dictionary will be used:

And if neither can provide a definition, then Merriam Webster will be used.

"Sufficient" means that illegal election activities affected more ballots than the margin of victory for then-candidate Joseph R. Biden.

RULES:

By participating in this debate, PRO and CON agree to adhere to the following rules:

1. Use of logical fallacies are strictly prohibited. Any logical fallacy that exists in this Wikipedia page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies is banned from the debate. All logical fallacies shall be defined according to this Wikipedia webpage. Any deliberate usage of a logical fallacy results in immediate forfeiture and admittance of defeat. Accidental usage can be rectified by not using the fallacy again and moving on with the debate.

2. The rules and definitions of logic shall come from the webpage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotelian_logic, and not Merriam Webster's online Dictionary or the Wikipedia page. This debate shall be governed by the laws of logic, meaning burden of proof is required by both parties.

3. Usage of any propaganda technique as defined, outlined, and explained in this wikipedia article as an argument is banned:

4. Usage of any compliance technique as defined, outlined, and explained in this wikipedia article as an argument is banned:

5. The rules of grammar and proper english shall come from Farlex's grammar book available here: https://www.grammarbook.com/ and they will be followed strictly. Deliberate attempts to use gibberish english result in forfeiture of debate by the person who committed the action.

6. Using definitions from any source not previously listed is strictly prohibited and results in forfeiture of debate.

7. For the purposes of this debate, evidence is defined by entry 1, definition 1b in Merriam Webster's Online Dictionary (and only including entry 1, definition 1b of testimony) and shall also not break any of the debate rules.

8. Disobeying these rules repeatedly results in immediate forfeiture of debate.

Time for argument:  one week
Voting system: Open
Voting period: Two weeks or one month
Point system Four points
Rating mode Rated
Number of arguments: 5
Characters per argument: up to 10,000

Does this sound good to you?



Public-Choice
Public-Choice's avatar
Debates: 19
Posts: 1,065
3
4
8
Public-Choice's avatar
Public-Choice
3
4
8
Jeez. I need to proofread better lmao... revision 3:

I also changed the definition of evidence to align with that in the U.S. Code

TOPIC:

THE USFG should decertify the 2020 US Presidential Election due to illegal election activities sufficient to deny Biden's victory

STANCES:

PRO must argue there was a sufficient number of ballots affected by illegal election activities to decertify the election.

CON must argue there was not a sufficient number of ballots affected by illegal election activities to decertify the election.

DEFINITIONS:

The following sources will determine the standards for illegal election activities:

- U.S. Code and U.S. Constitution

For definitions, the U.S. Code, in its entirety, shall supplement the definitions, and where the U.S. Code fails to provide a definition, then The Law's law dictionary will be used:

And if neither can provide a definition, then Merriam Webster will be used.

"Sufficient" means that illegal election activities affected more ballots than the margin of victory for then-candidate Joseph R. Biden.

RULES:

By participating in this debate, PRO and CON agree to adhere to the following rules:

1. Use of logical fallacies are strictly prohibited. Any logical fallacy that exists in this Wikipedia page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies is banned from the debate. All logical fallacies shall be defined according to this Wikipedia webpage. Any deliberate usage of a logical fallacy results in immediate forfeiture and admittance of defeat. Accidental usage can be rectified by not using the fallacy again and moving on with the debate.

2. The rules and definitions of logic shall come from the webpage https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotelian_logic, and not Merriam Webster's online Dictionary or any other Wikipedia page. This debate shall be governed by the laws of logic, meaning burden of proof is required by both parties.

3. Usage of any propaganda technique, as defined, outlined, and explained in this wikipedia article, as an argument is banned:

4. Usage of any compliance technique, as defined, outlined, and explained in this wikipedia article, as an argument is banned:

5. The rules of grammar and proper english shall come from Grammarbook.com available here: https://www.grammarbook.com/ and they will be followed strictly. Deliberate attempts to use gibberish english result in forfeiture of debate by the person who committed the action.

6. Using definitions from any source not previously listed is strictly prohibited and results in forfeiture of debate.

7. For the purposes of this debate, evidence shall be allowed or rejected based on the Federal Rules of Evidence, available here:

8. Disobeying these rules repeatedly results in immediate forfeiture of debate.

Time for argument:  One week
Voting system: Open
Voting period: One month
Point system Four points
Rating mode Rated
Number of arguments: 5
Characters per argument: up to 10,000

Does this sound good to you?

oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Public-Choice
If I haven't already said so, it seems like a lot of unnecessary rules 

but I'm fine proceeding on these terms.
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@3RU7AL
-->@oromagi
should elections be held to a standard of "proven safe and secure"

or simply

NOt "proven unsafe and insecure"
  • First you have to decide if you want voters to remain anonymous. 
    • The Supreme Court long ago ruled that anonymous voting is protected by the First Amendment
    • But to preserve anonymity we have to sacrifice the only ultimate proof for elections.
    • If you want elections to be "proven safe and secure' you need to overthrow anonymous voting and either SCOTUS precedent or the First amendment
    • If you want to preserve anonymity then you have to satisfied elections that can't be positively proved.

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
  • First you have to decide if you want voters to remain anonymous. 
STAR-Vote: A Secure, Transparent, Auditable, and Reliable Voting System [**]
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@3RU7AL
STAR-Vote: A Secure, Transparent, Auditable, and Reliable Voting System [**]
  • Doesn't seem to offer any kind of remedy to the unprovability of anonymous elections.  It calls itself secure, transparent, auditable, and reliable but I don't see how ranked choice improves of any of these.
    • Automatically doubles the number of elections and so cost to govts.
    • Seems like a way to give 3rd and 4th parties more shots at power but historically that just weakens the mandate for the majority winner
    • Certainly would double the opportunity for unscrupulous liars to claim election fraud.

3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
it's not really that complicated

RCV actually REDUCES the number of elections because it ELIMINATES the need for PRIMARIES

you can have electronic voting that prints out two scannable receipts

one paper receipt goes into a secure box to be counted after the election as an automatic double-check

the other receipt the voter takes home

the individual voter cannot be identified by the receipt

but each receipt has a unique and non-sequential identification code

that can be VERIFIED by the voter by visiting the official elections web portal
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
  • First you have to decide if you want voters to remain anonymous. 
On the other hand, compared to voting in person there are a lot fewer restrictions on someone else observing your vote or demanding verification that you voted the way that they wanted (from photocopying the ballot or taking a photo). Think of an abusive spouse demanding that their partner vote a certain way, parents with kids, “helping” elderly relatives, employers keeping tabs on how employees vote, unions, racist intimidation, or just providing the required evidence in order to receive straight up bribes.

The original motivation for the secret ballot in most democracies was more for these latter reasons than the election officials knowing how you voted or being corrupt. (Indeed, in the presence of sufficiently corrupt election officials, the secret ballot makes it easier for them to just fake the results because it's harder to prove that it wasn't counted correctly.) That's why many states also make it explicitly illegal to take a photo of a ballot in in person voting. Of course, all these things are illegal for absentee ballots too, but in a polling place election observers can make sure that voters don't take photos and no one else sees a voter's ballot before it's cast, but obviously it's much harder to prevent this at home or in any random place. So in a very real sense absentee ballots have fewer protections for anonymity. [**]
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@3RU7AL


you can have electronic voting that prints out two scannable receipts

one paper receipt goes into a secure box to be counted after the election as an automatic double-check

the other receipt the voter takes home

the individual voter cannot be identified by the receipt

but each receipt has a unique and non-sequential identification code

Why do you have to have ranked voting to have two scannable receipts?  In effect, I already have this system.  I keep one barcoded receipt and mail a barcoded ballot in.
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,171
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
Just dropped in to say you can have a secret ballot which is auditable by anyone with a computer and where the only method of fraud requires a conspiracy to issue false vote tokens, and that conspiracy could be detected by sufficient surveillance.

It's called blockchain tech, it works; combine it with with biometric hashes and a video camera in every booth and it's problem solved.

There are two types of people who don't immediately agree:
1.) People who don't understand the technology and distrust those who do.
2.) People who fear democracy, and deep down know their interests and ideals are best served through fraud
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@ADreamOfLiberty
There are two types of people who don't immediately agree:
1.) People who don't understand the technology and distrust those who do.
2.) People who fear democracy, and deep down know their interests and ideals are best served through fraud
3) The National Academy of Sciences

Blockchains are a technology meant to achieve an unalterable, decentralized, public, append-only log of transactions, without any single authority in a position to change the log. In an election context, the “transactions” would be the casting of ballots. A blockchain could therefore act as a virtual electronic ballot box. Blockchains may be managed publicly or by arestricted set of managers.  Several companies provide, or are attempting to build, voting systems around blockchains.

While the notion of using a blockchain as an immutable ballot box may seem promising, blockchain technology does little to solve the fundamental security issues of elections, and indeed, blockchains introduce additional security vulnerabilities. In particular, if malware on a voter’s device alters a vote before it ever reaches a blockchain, the immutability of the blockchain fails to provide the desired integrity, and the voter may never know of the alteration.

Blockchains are decentralized, but elections are inherently centralized. Although blockchains can be effective for decentralized applications, public elections are inherently centralized—requiring election administrators define the contents of ballots, identify the list of eligible voters, and establish the duration of voting. They are responsible for resolving balloting issues, managing vote tabulation, and announcing results. Secure voting requires that these operations be performed verifiably, not that they be performed in a decentralized manner.

While it is true that blockchains offer observability and immutability, in a centralized election scenario, observability and immutability may be achieved more simply by other means. Election officials need only, for example, post digitally signed versions of relevant election-related reports for public observation and download.

Ballots stored on a blockchain are electronic. While paper ballots are directly verifiable by voters, electronic ballots (i.e., ballots on a blockchain) can be more difficult to verify. Software is required to examine postings on blockchain. If such software is corrupted, then verifiability may be illusory. Software independence is not, therefore, achieved through posting ballots on a blockchain: as ballots are represented electronically, software independence may be more difficult to achieve.

The blockchain abstraction, once implemented, provides added points of attack for malicious actors. For example, blockchain “miners” or “stakeholders” (those who add items to the blockchain) have discretionary control over what items are added. Miners/stakeholders might collude to suppress votes from certain populations or regions. Furthermore, blockchain protocols generally yield results that are a consensus of the miners/ stakeholders. This consensus may not represent the consensus of the voting public. Miners/stakeholders with sufficient power might also cause confusion and uncertainty about the state of a blockchain by raising doubts about whether a consensus has been reached.

Blockchains do not provide the anonymity often ascribed to them.* In the particular context of elections, voters need to be authorized as eligible to vote and as not having cast more than one ballot in the particular election. Blockchains do not offer means for providing the necessary authorization.

Blockchains do not provide ballot secrecy. If a blockchain is used, then cast ballots must be encrypted or otherwise anonymized to prevent coercion andvote-selling. While E2E-V voting methods may provide the necessary cryptographic tools for this, ordinary blockchain methods do not.

It may be possible to employ blockchains within an election system by addressing the security issues associated with blockchains through the use of additional mechanisms (such as, for example, those provided by E2Everifiability), but the credit for addressing such problems would lie with the additional mechanisms, not with the use of blockchains

*A July 13, 2018 federal indictment of twelve Russian operatives, for instance, describes in detail how the operatives were traced and identified through their use of the cryptocurrency bitcoin and its associated blockchain ledger. Count Ten of the indictment (Conspiracy to Launder Money) details how “the Conspirators” used bitcoin and its blockchain ledger in an attempt to “obscure their identities and their links to Russia and the Russian government“ and how their use of bitcoin, despite the “perceived anonymity” of blockchains, was then exploited by investigators to identify the operatives. See United States of America vs. Viktor Borisovich Netyksho, Boris Alekseyevich Antonov, Dmitriy Sergeyevich Badin, Ivan Sergeyevich Yermakov, Aleksey Viktorovich Lukashev, Sergey Aleksandrovich Morgachev, Nikolay Yuryevich Kozachek, Pavel Vyacheslavovich Yershov, Artem Andreyevich Malyshev, Aleksandr Vladimirovich Osadchuk, Aleksey Aleksandrovich Potemkin, and Anatoliy Sergeyevich Kovalev, Case 1:18-cr-00215-ABJ (2018), pp. 21-22, available at: https://www. justice.gov/file/1080281

P.S.  I also remember when Russian pirates were blackmailing all those companies including Colonial Pipeline in the Spring of '21 and hearing how the FBI was able to go into Russian networks and retrieve millions of dollars paid to the pirates in bitcoin- theoretically, that's supposed to be impossible but the US did it in like 48 hours, then they were able to trace the pirates and give the names to Putin who had them arrested in January.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
Why do you have to have ranked voting to have two scannable receipts?
one does not require the other

RCV = IMPROVEMENT OVER CURRENT ELECTION SYSTEMS

AUDITABLE VOTING = IMPROVEMENT OVER CURRENT ELECTION SYSTEMS
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
 In effect, I already have this system.  I keep one barcoded receipt and mail a barcoded ballot in.
and do you have some way of verifying if your vote was counted (and not rejected for "unmatched signature" or lost in the mail) ?

and do you have some way of verifying if your vote was registered with your selections and not modified somehow in transit ?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
 In particular, if malware on a voter’s device alters a vote before it ever reaches a blockchain, the immutability of the blockchain fails to provide the desired integrity, and the voter may never know of the alteration.
HOLY GODDAMN FUCK

THE ENTIRE POINT OF A BLOCKCHAIN IS THAT YOU CAN VERIFY YOUR VOTE

IT'S A PUBLICLY AUDITABLE LEDGER

YOU CAN LOOK AT THE BLOCKCHAIN AND SEE YOUR VOTE WAS REGISTERED AS YOU INTENDED

TRANSPARENT AND VERIFIABLE
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
 theoretically, that's supposed to be impossible
according to who exactly ?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
Democratic Voters

The Democratic voters have historically held an edge over Republican voters, and recent data shows that this data is still holding true. The number of Democratic voters is reported to be around 49 million. The Dems also carried the lion's share of registered voters in States that asked voters to declare affiliation with 36 percent of voters declaring Democratic affiliation.

What might be most surprising about those figures is that the second-largest reporting party affiliation was the Independent's, not the Republicans. That of course leads us to the next question regarding the number of registered voters by party.

Independent Voters

The number of people who identify with and declare themselves as Independent voters is second next to Democrats. What might be surprising to many people is that the overall number of people who claim affiliation with the Independent party is usually more than those who declare themselves as either Democrat or Republican.

The other impressive figure for those who declare as Independent voters are that 31 percent turn out for those States that asked for party affiliation declarations. This, of course, doesn't mean there will be an Independent uprising, but it does reveal the balance among the parties. [**]

why do you think you are REQUIRED to register a "party affiliation" when you sign-up to even qualify to VOTE ?

is it perhaps so officials can GERRYMANDER their districts ?

thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@Public-Choice
I don’t see how you could possibly win that debate. Even if you can win that the vote was fraudulent there isn’t a constitutional mechanism for overturning it two years later. As far as I know states can award electors however they choose, even through a rigged election 
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@oromagi
P.S.  I also remember when Russian pirates were blackmailing all those companies including Colonial Pipeline in the Spring of '21 and hearing how the FBI was able to go into Russian networks and retrieve millions of dollars paid to the pirates in bitcoin- theoretically, that's supposed to be impossible but the US did it in like 48 hours, then they were able to trace the pirates and give the names to Putin who had them arrested in January.
nearly a quarter of all known scams involve some form of crypto

THIS MEANS THAT 75% OF ALL SCAMS USE EITHER CASH OR CREDIT CARDS OR BANK TRANSFERS

we should probably be suspicious of anyone using CASH OR CREDIT CARDS OR BANK TRANSFERS

we should probably also make a bunch of new laws restricting the use of CASH OR CREDIT CARDS OR BANK TRANSFERS

i mean, that would probably solve 75% of the "scam problem", right ?
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,171
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@oromagi
There are two types of people who don't immediately agree:
1.) People who don't understand the technology and distrust those who do.
2.) People who fear democracy, and deep down know their interests and ideals are best served through fraud
3) The National Academy of Sciences
I'll answer quoted sections but if you're in #1.) and can't engage with my responses it will annoy me. People who know they can't debate a subject should not be throwing around links as a substitute.

The first obvious error on my first read through is the assumption that "blockchain" means one and only one thing, I described a system that was not some kind of carbon copy of say bitcoin but it is no less a blockchain for it. A tank is no less a vehicle for the armor. I will point out how the system I refer to indeed does what I say it would.

David Jefferson: In particular, if malware on a voter’s device alters a vote before it ever reaches a blockchain, the immutability of the blockchain fails to provide the desired integrity, and the voter may never know of the alteration.
3RU7AL's commentary is adequate summary, I'll expand:

First the absolute error, the voter could very well know of the error (as 3RU7AL said) because he/she would have an ultimate private view key. You have spoken else where (almost smugly) of how you can lookup your 'ballot' online.

The ballot is the ledger of your voting choices, it is not a letter purported to establish identity sent with a mail-in-ballot. It is not a receipt or some electronic version of an "I voted" sticker.

So I asked you, and you have no answered, can you see who you voted for?

If you can see who you voted for that does not mean that was how the vote was counted. They could be seeing your request and sending you back HTML that makes you feel secure that has nothing to do with the actual tally. It also means that they have a database of people and who they voted for, if that database were leaked it would represent the total destruction of ballot secrecy. It's mere existence in a form decryptable by government officials is a violation of the principle of a secret ballot.

Finally it gives you no confidence that the votes recorded for others are true and legitimate.

To fix each of these problems one at a time leads to a system which falls under the definition of "blockchain".

1.) To allow you and only you to see your ballot (who you voted for) you generate your own ultimate private view key [UPVK] (I'm saying ultimate because this system would have multiple types of view keys). You use that to generate your vote, and only that key can be used to decrypt the full ballot. You can make that private key public by choice or (theoretically) by letting malware on your computer, but that does not remove your ability to verify your ballot.

If you installed malware which basically disguised itself as the voting software and it changed your vote as you sent it, it would simply be a matter of taking your UPVK to a clean machine and checking. The government could provide clean machines and millions of other citizens would also have the software.

A system for ballot retraction could be included, but it is unlikely to be heavily used because:

2.) Malware is a defeated disease for moderately informed computer user. By attack vector almost all malware originated from overly broad API access of JS to the underlying operating system. They have been plugging holes for a while and at this point they have finally (and wisely) decided that there ought to be no bridge. Modern browsers allow the retrieval of some information but do not allow the unsolicited download of executables or the unmanaged manipulation of files.

The only way to get malware now is to choose to download some form of executable (.exe, .bat, etc... ) and then double click on it. Being delivered a trojan horse executable when you try to download a useful program is of course a problem, but one that has also been solved using checksums and HTTPS + certs.

To put this in concrete terms, if the government runs a website where you can download the voting software and it is HTTPS with a .gov then that is where the executable came from.

Don't trust the federal government? Fine get it from a source you do trust, a local government, a bunch of anti-government militia, the BLM IT division. Doesn't matter, whoever you trust can compile the code and they're all looking at the same files.

So you see the accusation "the voter may not know of the alteration" is true of paper ballots and uniquely not true of a properly designed decentralized cryptographic voting system.


David Jefferson: While it is true that blockchains offer observability and immutability, in a centralized election scenario, observability and immutability may be achieved more simply by other means. Election officials need only, for example, post digitally signed versions of relevant election-related reports for public observation and download.
This statement is made from a profound ignorance of the vulnerabilities of the current system. Hourly totals may provide evidence of certain kinds of fraud but in no way do they solve the problem. This is akin to suggesting the adding of sprinkles to solve the salmonella in the ice cream.

The dangerous fraud is people fraudulently requesting (or just collecting) ballots which they fraudulently fill out or order to have filled out. That is why mail in voting was such a big deal. That is why "all of a sudden" everybody was concerned about fraud, because all of a sudden an unauditable form of fraud became tens of thousands of times more accessible.

David Jefferson: Ballots stored on a blockchain are electronic. While paper ballots are directly verifiable by voters, electronic ballots (i.e., ballots on a blockchain) can be more difficult to verify.
This is the opposite of reality, a giant pile of paper ballots under seal tape, lock, and key is not accessible to the public at all. Its counting is left to machines and officials individually approved by local bureaucrats.

This however is missing the point. A giant pile of ballots is count-auditable, that is; with enough political pressure one can have a third party come in and count the pile. That is more or less what happened in Arizona. Some foul play was indicated, but focusing on this form of audit is (like assertions about dominion machines connecting to Venezuela) a red herring.

It's like saying "Look, we proved the money wasn't printed with an inkjet on office depot paper so therefore it's not counterfeit"

Blockchain totals are truly accessible to the public, but more importantly a bio metric and video recorded issuing of voting tokens would be public origin-auditable.

David Jefferson: Software independence is not, therefore, achieved through posting ballots on a blockchain: as ballots are represented electronically, software independence may be more difficult to achieve.
It's called "open source", an article written after 2018 really shouldn't be so uninformed.


David Jefferson: The blockchain abstraction, once implemented, provides added points of attack for malicious actors. For example, blockchain “miners” or “stakeholders” (those who add items to the blockchain) have discretionary control over what items are added. Miners/stakeholders might collude to suppress votes from certain populations or regions. Furthermore, blockchain protocols generally yield results that are a consensus of the miners/ stakeholders. This consensus may not represent the consensus of the voting public. Miners/stakeholders with sufficient power might also cause confusion and uncertainty about the state of a blockchain by raising doubts about whether a consensus has been reached.
This is a common myth/fallacy about blockchains. It's often referred to as the "51% attack".

What can be accomplished by a 51% attack is confusion. What cannot be accomplished is undetected fraud.

The integrity of the blockchain is the result of the referential encryption, not consensus. Consensus is what tells you which version of the file is the complete one, but your own CPU can tell you which versions are accurate.

When in doubt a citizen, a state government, the military, congress can each trust their own "mining" and choose what to do as appropriate. As the constitution is currently written state governments can send electors based on the results of a chess tournament, so it can be presumed that the state government would select electors based on the version that their own mining agrees with. If 50,000 citizens & state military with guns can see from their own devices that the state government has chosen the incomplete blockchain and are therefore attempting to ignore votes it is incumbent on them to deal with the treason.

ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,171
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@oromagi

David Jefferson: Blockchains do not provide the anonymity often ascribed to them.* In the particular context of elections, voters need to be authorized as eligible to vote and as not having cast more than one ballot in the particular election. Blockchains do not offer means for providing the necessary authorization.

Blockchains do not provide ballot secrecy. If a blockchain is used, then cast ballots must be encrypted or otherwise anonymized to prevent coercion andvote-selling.
and blockchains can't make you a PB&J sandwich either! Of course a computer system isn't going to magically differentiate citizens from non-citizens.

This blockchain system would be designed around non-fungible vote tokens, one for every type of ballot, issued by the government running the election.

Of course if it was merely that it would be no better than mail-in (well faster and easier to count-audit but not fundamentally fixed).

The issuing of vote tokens could/should be secured via biometric hashing and video recorded. Note: A biometric hash is the reduction of things like fingerprints and eye scans to a single number with rounding controlling repeatability.

So the gov publishes an election (which defines ballot options) to the blockchain, they also publish the public ID of that election so that everyone knows which election is the real one.

Everyone who wishes to vote registers, that is they provide the simple information that is currently used to 'verify' a vote during in-person polling. Name, address. This creates a record on the blockchain, it need not be encrypted. Names and addresses are not now nor do they ever need to be secret.

They are then issued a list of private pre-verification tokens [PVT] (one for each ballot, lets focus on one for the sake of grammar).  The government seals a previously collected biometric hash as well as any other typically secret(ish) PII that can be thought of. Social security number, driver's license, etc... In order to vote every person must have had an appointment where the biometric hash was initially recorded.

"seal" means that the government can decrypt that information in the PVT, but the person they gave it too (and the general blockchain observers) cannot.

The citizen, who has only given name and address so far, must take his/her PVTs to a voting booth. The voting booth is a sound/EM/light proof structure with room for only one person. They give fingerprints, have eye scans, give all the PII the PVT header requires. Then they encrypt it with an identity private key [IPK] + current date, this is not the same as the ultimate private key so that during audits PII can be revealed without revealing ballot choices. A third copy is wrapped in a key specific to the booth.

They are video recorded while doing this, obviously not everything they input, but their face.

The resulting token contains three sets of PII, the one the government provided from the original appointment, the one recorded in the booth encrypted by the IPK + date in the voting, and finally the one recorded in the booth encrypted by the booth key. This token is recorded in the blockchain. An encryption algorithm can be chosen such that the three sets can be compared without decryption. Thus the public can see every attempt at issuing a vote token and they can see if the PII matched or not.

Now people make mistakes sometimes putting in data, and sometimes there are glitches in biometric scans. These can be minimized by various means in the booth but it will sometimes happen. So mismatched PII is not instant proof of fraud, but only a matching set can be used as a voting token; so they will have to try again. Every attempt is recorded both in the block chain and by video.

The video is not stored on the blockchain, this would obviously be infeasible; however a hash of the video is so that the fully copy of the video which the government may host (but must be publicly accessible for a certain amount of time) can be verified as the same. Keep in mind the name and address information is available unencrypted so the public always has access to name, address, and video of attempted vote token issuing.

It would be wise to have law enforcement monitoring the block chain when the polls are opened, people trying too many times to create a valid voting token could be a sign of intentional disruption or a really stupid attempted fraud.

The government has the ability to decrypt the PII entered via the booth key so they could follow up on investigations, however the general public could identify the videos where PII mismatches occurred and follow up with name and address information.

A fully matching verification token can then be combined with the UPVK on the voter's device to create a 'spendable' ballot token. At this point a valid voting token assures beyond any reasonable doubt either the identity of the person in the booth or the ability to discard the vote due to wearing a ski-mask or something.

They could be allowed to leave with the voting token assigned to their 'account', however they could then try to sell that token. Once they leave all of the verification is attached to their account and the token. They could not transfer the token to another account but they could simply give their account info out for money.

Thus I would recommend that they are forced to vote in the booth in the same session as verification. So opening the booth door will instantly cause the booth to issue an expiration notice to the blockchain which would cause any attempt to post the ballot token afterwards to be publicly identified fraud and it would not be counted.

As for bribery of the sort where someone is paid (or compensated or coerced) to go vote a certain way, that's technically thought crime and there is no way to deal with it except good police work. However the kind of bribery that is possible now is orders of magnitude less difficult, simply show up to a poor person's house and say you'll give them $50 for their mail in ballot.

David Jefferson: While E2E-V voting methods may provide the necessary cryptographic tools for this, ordinary blockchain methods do not.

It may be possible to employ blockchains within an election system by addressing the security issues associated with blockchains through the use of additional mechanisms (such as, for example, those provided by E2Everifiability), but the credit for addressing such problems would lie with the additional mechanisms, not with the use of blockchains
I don't care if you call it the Democrator 4000 HD+ Black Edition, it's possible to have a publicly auditable and secret ballot system at the same time and the key missing ingredient was the collection of cryptographic strategies referred to as "block chains"

oromagi: and how their use of bitcoin, despite the “perceived anonymity” of blockchains, was then exploited by investigators to identify the operatives
Monero

P.S.  I also remember when Russian pirates were blackmailing all those companies including Colonial Pipeline in the Spring of '21 and hearing how the FBI was able to go into Russian networks and retrieve millions of dollars paid to the pirates in bitcoin- theoretically, that's supposed to be impossible but the US did it in like 48 hours, then they were able to trace the pirates and give the names to Putin who had them arrested in January.
If they got the private keys of the pirates they could simply transfer the money back. Otherwise it is impossible and if they claim they did it without the private keys they are lying. I also believe they lied about breaking the encryption on an iphone.

They aren't stupid, if there is a system that defeats them they don't tell the world it defeated them; they say it was "SOOO EASYYY" to scare opponents away from using it and into using systems with back doors (like paid VPNs).
ADreamOfLiberty
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,171
3
2
2
ADreamOfLiberty's avatar
ADreamOfLiberty
3
2
2
-->
@thett3
I don’t see how you could possibly win that debate. Even if you can win that the vote was fraudulent there isn’t a constitutional mechanism for overturning it two years later. As far as I know states can award electors however they choose, even through a rigged election 
Look at the resolution "should", should refers to the ideal; what ought to happen. It makes no claims of how.
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->@oromagi
should elections be held to a standard of "proven safe and secure" or simply NOt "proven unsafe and insecure"?

-->@3RU7AL
  • First you have to decide if you want voters to remain anonymous. 
-->@oromagi
  • STAR-Vote: A Secure, Transparent, Auditable, and Reliable Voting System [**]

-->@3RU7AL
  • Doesn't seem to offer any kind of remedy to the unprovability of anonymous elections. 

-->@oromagi
it's not really that complicated RCV actually REDUCES the number of elections because it ELIMINATES the need for PRIMARIES  you can have electronic voting that prints out two scannable receipts

-->@3RU7AL
Why do you have to have ranked voting to have two scannable receipts? 

-->@oromagi
one does not require the other
I still can't tell if you have a position on anonymous voting.  I guess I'm fine exchanging anonymity for a more positively provable  standard but we don't have that now.

oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@3RU7AL
and do you have some way of verifying if your vote was counted (and not rejected for "unmatched signature" or lost in the mail) ?

  • Once my vote is scanned I can verify my signature next to the bar code online