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3RU7AL
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@Greyparrot
I'm not a racist,
Impossible. There are no conditions that make anyone not a racist today. Even claiming such a thing makes you a racist.
depending of course

on your personally preferred choice of definition
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@ludofl3x
and provide an alternative explanation of why exactly

everyone thinks general acceptance of "white privilege AS-A-MATTER-OF-FACT" is worth considering at all
It's worth considering so it can be addressed at all. Pretending it isn't there isn't going to help. Acknowledging it earnestly is the way to healthy honest debate (NOT FEAR MONGERING), the path to fixing a lot of problems. 
in order to be "worth fixing"

it must FIRST be "worth considering"

first things first

let's start with "step one"

before leaping to "step two"
Shila
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@ludofl3x
--> @3RU7AL
but you pretend that isn't the same as "being a racist"
Is it, if I find out after the fact? I don't think so. Doesn't make me thrilled, but what can I do, I signed a legal document with no "promise you're not a racist" opt out clause.  Also in my example, it might not even be a conscious thing by the building owner...it might be that some realtor who isn't mine wouldn't show a black person my building. 
Letting a black person into a building full of whites is racism.

Bill Cosby a black raped 60 white women. If the women were not racist they would not have let him rape them knowing rape is a very serious felony. But because they were racist they  charged Bill Cosby with rape.

But the Judge found BillCosby not guilty declaring if white women sleep with a black man they cannot claim rape because that is racism.

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@3RU7AL
TWS1405
80% of black Americans are well above the poverty line with many of them doing far better than their white counterparts. 

Thanks for confirming what I proposed. 
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@ludofl3x
@Shila
Assume a reasonably intelligent, impartial observer who is undecided accepts everything you have said at face value, and everything else you might say or that even could be said in support of your points.  You have made the most compelling case that can be made and none stand able or willing to refute you.

What do you do next?  

How exactly are you going to solve whatever set of problems you think you're talking about here? 

What even are the problem(s) you're trying to solve, at a concrete (read: not abstract) level? 

If we're talking about so-called "white privilege," what exactly are you trying to change in the society? And why? 

If we're talking about supposed historical wrongs, what exactly are you proposing to do about it?  And why? 

I do not expect either of you are capable of answering these questions.  At best, you're going to repeat the same things you've already said.  At worst, you're going to prove how absurd your positions are because you're going to act as if concretely explaining whatever you think you're talking about somehow diminishes the moral force of your conviction.  But in reality, that kind of reaction is why the ideas you both have advocated for here cannot be taken seriously. 

Policies are forward-looking, when your ideas even in their best case are backward-looking speculation; nonsense focusing on contrived historical wrongs committed against groups by other groups at levels of abstraction so vague they approximate incoherency.  It's all hilariously Nietzschen, actually.  

We can talk about whether any plan you come up with is realistic, but before we can assess the merits of any plan, we have to first figure out what exactly you think the problem is now and/or as it will continue in the future.   But I haven't seen either of you even take the first step in even defining what any conceivable problem might possibly be at a level that lends itself to any solution whatsoever.  

I am very serious about this too.  And if it turns out, as I suspect our little exercise here will demonstrate, that you can't even concretely define the problem(s) you're complaining about, why would you possibly think that any impartial observer should ever take this bullshit seriously?  

You're selling a narrative that is less persuasive than Scientology, with the signaled moral impetus of a religious revival.  Show us the way to the promised land.  But first, tell us what that promised land is.   

For all your sound and fury, your ideas signify nothing.  
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@ludofl3x
It is existentially offensive to see arguments this stupid proposed, explicitly or otherwise.   Lets decompose that bullshit narrative, together. 

Hi! Random white person whose ancestors didn't get here until about 1935, I'm second generation born in America.
Who you are, what your nationality is, who your alleged "ancestors" were, what color your skin allegedly is, when your 'ancestors' purportedly "g[ot] here" (wherever "here" is, though I suspect it's the United States because you've likely never even been outside it) or how many generations your family has been physically present within that country's borders are all irrelevant to anything you could possibly say on this or any issue.  

Let me clue you in, since it's beyond obvious you missed the memo.  Attributes of the speaker do not impact the validity of the ideas that person advances.  By implication, who gets to talk about any issue; whose opinions can or should be considered are likewise unaffected by those attributes.  Your so called "perspective" (read: that 'speaking as a random white person' bullshit) is worthless, for the same reason.  

Bringing historic[al] data about slave ownership into a white privilege debate is folly and likely to just muddy the waters.
So, what you are actually arguing is that anything that contradicts whatever story you're telling "is folly and likely to just muddy the waters"?   Let us explore the levels of this argument's stupidity together, that such errors may never be repeated again.

First, that "folly" directly contradicted your point(s).  It is neither folly nor does it have any propensity to "muddy the waters," as you incorrectly claimed. 

  • According to you, so called 'whites' as a group are responsible for slavery and therefore inequitably benefit from so called 'white privilege'.   Don't forget what you wrote, after all . . . "slavery and other legal subjugations helped create and support [white privilege]."  
  • Another user cited historical data indicating that only a small percentage of white people owned slaves: only an incredibly small fraction of so called 'whites' actually owned slaves; almost all did not.   
  • That data directly contradicts, and therefore undermines, any proposition that so called 'whites' as a group are responsible for slavery.
Second, you will be shocked to learn that any discussion of white privilege necessarily begins with historical data.  You can't even define the term, much less conceptualize it, without pointing to figures ostensibly showing 'inequity'.  It turns out that disparate impact arguments are the beginning and end of the intellectual support behind white privilege.  That's all and only what's out there.  There is nothing else. 

Let's review what a disparate impact argument is.  

  • For example.  How do you show 'white privilege' in the context of criminal justice?  As one way, you might note purported sentencing differentials between 'whites' and 'blacks', or other seeming differences at any level of the criminal justice system or some such other purportedly 'disparate' impact.  
  • Another example.  How do you show 'white privilege' in the context of career advancement?  As one way, you might cite a seeming lack of 'representation' among CEOs of Fortune 500 companies.  
  • Yet another example.  How do you show 'white privilege' in the context of college admission?  A favored way would be to complain about how the SAT and ACT are "racist" because it turns out that blacks don't perform as well as whites, on average.  
These, like all disparate impact arguments, are fundamentally idiotic.  But they rely, or purport to rely, on historical data --- which was the whole fucking point of why the other user cited historical data about slave ownership.    

So is it your claim that the only historical data that can be considered on issues of so called 'white privilege' are those which support your bullshit narrative? 

Or is it your claim that anything that contradicts your bullshit narrative muddies the water?

Or is just 'folly'?  

I don't feel GUILTY about SLAVE OWNERSHIP,
Why not?  Because you're not 'white'?  Some other reason(s)?  Do tell.  

I'd bet you can't even coherently define 'white' as you have used that term here. 

  • What does it mean? 
  • Who are the 'white' people? 
  • Who are not the 'white' people? 
  • Why?  
but that isn't the same thing as understanding what white privilege is, the forms it can take, how slavery and other legal subjugations helped create and support it,
Define the term.  What exactly is white privilege, as you understand it?  Do not just copy and paste something else someone else wrote.  Explain it in words that are yours.  

  • What exactly is "white privilege"? 
  • What "forms" can it "take"? 
  • What role did "slavery" have in creating "white privilege"? 
  • What supposed "other legal subjugations" played any role, and what was that role each ostensibly played? 
and recognizing that if there's something sensible to do about it in the short term, it should be examined for feasibility.
  • Before we even get into sensibility or feasibility, let's start with what you're proposing to be done in the first place. 
We are bound by the Constitution to "form a more perfect union," in my book, and just because America's imperfect doesn't mean it isn't great. Just that it can be better. 
  • How are you going to make America better?  
Lead the way to the promised land, kiddo. 

3RU7AL
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@coal
Assume a reasonably intelligent, impartial observer who is undecided accepts everything you have said at face value, and everything else you might say or that even could be said in support of your points.  You have made the most compelling case that can be made and none stand able or willing to refute you.

What do you do next?  

How exactly are you going to solve whatever set of problems you think you're talking about here? 

What even are the problem(s) you're trying to solve, at a concrete (read: not abstract) level? 

If we're talking about so-called "white privilege," what exactly are you trying to change in the society? And why? 

If we're talking about supposed historical wrongs, what exactly are you proposing to do about it?  And why? 
bingo
Greyparrot
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@3RU7AL
There really is no need to speculate or ask any of the users here what a reparation plan would be for perceived racism. We have 7 years of BLM activism to show us exactly what reparations would look like. Money funneled directly into the banks of professional race grifters and zero money funneled to people who are in and out of prison.
3RU7AL
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@Greyparrot
There really is no need to speculate or ask any of the users here what a reparation plan would be for perceived racism. We have 7 years of BLM activism to show us exactly what reparations would look like. Money funneled directly into the banks of professional race grifters and zero money funneled to people who are in and out of prison.
Dutch to pay $200 million for Slavery Reparations [**]
Greyparrot
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@3RU7AL
The Dutch PM says "BLM inspired him." I suppose race grifting is a teachable profession.
3RU7AL
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@Greyparrot
 We have 7 years of BLM activism to show us exactly what reparations would look like.
which is what exactly ?

what exactly would reparations look like ?
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@3RU7AL
I answered that
coal
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@Greyparrot
Obviously, the idea of so-called "reparations" is unconscionable at every conceivable level.  Particularly where, as is the case with BLM, that entire group seems to be no more than a front to launder money from the purported "cause" to the purported "leaders."  

Financially, BLM is basically the same thing as the PLO. 

Politically, they're basically the same thing as Hamas.  

But BLM's similarities to terrorist organizations is low-hanging fruit; that group is so easy to find fault with any idiot could do it, and only an idiot could possibly support their activities (much less donate money to their objectives).

Here's the broader point to consider:  WHY are so-called "reparations" even proposed?  Take Ta Nasi Coates' argument at face value, as an illustration of that argument's stupidity.  I'll pick on him since he's a target my own size, as opposed to whoever these woke people are posting in this thread.  

The idea is that by giving money to individuals who purportedly belong to one or more group(s) that were 'oppressed' we are rebalancing the scale of historical inequity.  Essentially, so-called 'white' wealth has accumulated over time and that accumulation is due in substantial part to slavery.  White people got rich.  Black people got less than 40 acres and a mule.  A century of segregation followed, which further prevented 'black' wealth accumulation. 

Assuming for the sake of argument that wealth can be accumulated by groups (as opposed to individuals, who, it turns out, are the actually relevant societal units unlike groups), the way you'd prove that argument is by talking about things like average net worth of 'black' families, relative to something as a point of comparison.  

If you accumulated that data, which some people --- i.e., Thomas Sowell --- have, I'm sure many would be shocked to learn that black folks in fact meteorically improved their standard of living, generation after generation until a certain series of events in the 1960s when LBJ was elected.  What changed, you might wonder?  Well, the state decided that it was going to involve itself in black folks' lives to an increasing degree, which was one of those stupid ideas that progressives implemented 'with the best of intentions' without any notion of what 'could possibly go wrong'.  

Tremendous horror unfolded.  People wonder why the lack of black fathers is so pervasive that it's a meme.  LBJ's presidency and social initiatives are why.  The government destroyed families, started constructing housing projects like Pruitt–Igoe and kicked off a range of initiatives that vitiated the human networks through which black folks' lives and standards of living had improved since the end of the civil war.  And that's all very clear in the data Sowell has published on time and time and time again.  

It's tragic, really.  Expanding welfare more than anything else probably did the most harm, because that meant that the financial costs of children born out of wedlock no longer had to be a father's responsibility.  So, with reproduction unmoored from marriage; black fatherhood, or the lack of it, became a meme.  Roe v. Wade thereafter made those problems worse.  Entire generations of black babies were aborted after that egregiously wrong decision was handed down.  When you actually look at the demographics of who was aborting babies, the data are sufficient to make your blood run cold.  If there ever was any so-called 'white' privilege, it was the fact that you had a much better chance of not being aborted if you were white than if you were black, post-Roe.  Sowell compellingly argues that without Roe, more black babies would have been born and they would have accumulated considerable more social and economic capital, absent the "Great Society" bullshit of LBJ's presidency. 

In reality, however, intergenerational poverty is hardly limited to black folks' though.  White trash families throughout the South and the rest of this country remain at the bottom of the economic scale.  Ever been to West Virginia?  Eastern Kentucky?  California's numerous trailer parks?  They're as bad or worse as Chicago's South Side from a poverty perspective.  The reasons why are the same: there is no surer way to remain poor for the rest of your life than to have kids out of wedlock.
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@coal
Yes!
3RU7AL
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@Greyparrot
I answered that
so you think that reparations would be paid to an organization like BLM and NOT to individuals ?
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@coal
I'm sure many would be shocked to learn that black folks in fact meteorically improved their standard of living, generation after generation until a certain series of events in the 1960s when LBJ was elected.
well, hold on

let's not gloss over

America’s Only Successful Coup d’Etat Overthrew a Biracial Government in 1898

The Wilmington, North Carolina massacre decimated Black political and economic power in the city for nearly 100 years.


i'm pretty certain you can't blame LBJ for that one
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@3RU7AL
You realize that Black immigrants past 1900 are generally wealthier and less prone to ending up in jail than both white immigrants and Generational American whites and blacks.

This is a culture problem, not a color problem.
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@Greyparrot
This is a culture problem, not a color problem.
what the fuck is a "culture problem" and how do you propose to "fix" it ?
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@3RU7AL
No need for profanity sir. You are proving my point though.
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@Greyparrot
No need for profanity sir. You are proving my point though.
in the same exact way that "white privilege" must be clearly defined and specific proposals presented to "fix" "the problem" 

"black culture" must be clearly defined and specific proposals presented to "fix" "the problem" 
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@3RU7AL
Did you even read what I wrote?

Because there is a marked difference between Black immigrants after 1900 and everyone else, you can NOT monolithically create a universal term like "Black Culture" and have it apply to all dark skinned Americans.

It would be like calling Russian culture "white culture" even though practically no American of any skin color has those values.

Because you cannot define the term "Black Culture" for those reasons, you also cannot define "white privilege"
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@3RU7AL
If you really want to understand the distinct variations between the many cultures of every skin color of America, I strongly suggest investing time with an audiobook from Dr Sowell called Black Rednecks and White liberals. It talks about the origins of regional cultures and how they influenced the lives of Blacks and Whites living in both the north, and the south.

After you learn the book, you will never again use the term "Black Culture" or "White culture"
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@Greyparrot
you can NOT monolithically create a universal term like "Black Culture" and have it apply to all dark skinned Americans.
i didn't create the term, and i don't generally blame "black culture" for societal ills

it was my impression that you were blaming "black culture" for the observable social inequality

is this a fair impression ?

or do you prefer to focus on some other factor, like LBJ or something ?
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@Greyparrot
After you learn the book, you will never again use the term "Black Culture" or "White culture"
i already don't use those terms generally

i only mention them when someone i'm speaking with seems to think they're somehow inexplicably important
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@3RU7AL
I would like to address the same problem Coal brought up which is the government rewarding Black women financially for he destruction of the nuclear family (which BLM bizarrely describes as a good thing in their manifesto)

Every socio metric proves without any reasonable doubt that this breakdown is detrimental for society, and particularly destructive for the affected children.

Women initiate divorce 70% of the time, and Black women are among the highest offenders.

There needs to be both a cultural shift in America followed by policy changes and laws that discourage women initiated divorces  instead of blindly maintaining the status quo encouraging the destruction of the nuclear family. Similar policies need to also discourage having children out of wedlock.

Since Black children are unfairly and unequally harmed by the destruction of the nuclear family, Black children stand the most to benefit from this cultural change.
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@coal
Ta-Nahisi Coates is one of the most privileged Black men in the world. Change my mind.
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@Greyparrot
-> @3RU7AL
I would like to address the same problem Coal brought up which is the government rewarding Black women financially for he destruction of the nuclear family (which BLM bizarrely describes as a good thing in their manifesto)

Every socio metric proves without any reasonable doubt that this breakdown is detrimental for society, and particularly destructive for the affected children.

Women initiate divorce 70% of the time, and Black women are among the highest offenders.

There needs to be both a cultural shift in America followed by policy changes and laws that discourage women initiated divorces  instead of blindly maintaining the status quo encouraging the destruction of the nuclear family. Similar policies need to also discourage having children out of wedlock.

Since Black children are unfairly and unequally harmed by the destruction of the nuclear family, Black children stand the most to benefit from this cultural change.
Here again whites stand the most to benefit from this cultural change because blacks will still need to be discourage from having children out of wedlock.

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@Shila
Nope. It's the black children that would benefit more than white kids.
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@Shila
I am beginning to think you're a troll account. The nonsense you're talking is on par with what wylted used to do when he was trying to stir the pot.  
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@coal
I wonder how far down this road America will travel before it is acceptable to appreciate men again, in the family, in marriages, and in the workplace.