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@3RU7AL
One's a soulless automaton.
Star Trek Teleportation
Posts
Total:
147
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@secularmerlin
If the brain in is manifesting thesort of activitythat constites self then i suppose it should, but
not all activity would count as meaningful. Occasional random synapses firing wouldnot be 'self ptroducing') at least that is my guess.
the other side is that a brain is not neccessary - any structure that can support the correct pattern of activity (such as 'brain' made of artificial silion 'neirons')would suffice.
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@drafterman
it depends on the level of analysis. An X-box game can be thought of in terms of monsters and weapons but underneath it is numbers being moved in and out of registers by a microchip. At one level the brain manifests a self, at a different level it's the synaptic communiction.of neurons. In each case both levels are correct - it is question of which is the more useful image in context.
Occasional random synapses firing wouldnot be 'self ptroducing') at least that is my guess.
Is that not an accurate description of normal brain function? How often is no occasional? What makes a synapse firing not random?
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@secularmerlin
I think what a journal lacks is dynamism. Such a journal would be like the source code of a progam - inert in itself, being only the 'recipe' of the actual self.Does that mean that a complete enough journal is the same thing as the human that wrote it?
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@secularmerlin
What is the difference between a broken computer and a working one? A not-completely dead computer may have activity going on, but it's meaningless activity b- it doesn't support the 'high level' of analysis I refrered to. A defunct computer may still (possibly) be shifting numbers around its registers, but its not making monsters and weapons.
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@keithprosser
What makes the operations of a working computer meaningful? It is probable that they are without meaning to the computer which presumably does not make value judgements. The ships replicators can make nearly any object from raw energy. It can also break matter down into raw energy as shown when dirty dishes are simply dematerialized. It is not transporting any object it is just making a new one from scratch or destroying one. The visual effect is earily similar to the transporter. I posit to you that the two technologies are linked. One could clone a human thousands of times. Then which one is secularmerlin? We all believe we are. We all have identical memories up to the point of transporting.
What makes the operations of a working computer meaningful? It is probable that they are without meaning to the computer which presumably does not make value judgements.
I mean the working of a computer running a program can be analysed by us at a high-level or at a low-level. That does not apply to a broken motherboard that can't run a program - it's activity only has low-level analysis. A computer does not analyse its own operation even when it is working! (it can if so programmed, but it is not essential for a computer to be self-aware!). i'm talking about how you could describe what the computer is doing to some body else at 'high' or 'low' level.
drafterman said "One's a soulless automaton" in relation to the riker 'clone' (which one i am not sure!) but i would say both of them can analysed at high or low level.
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@keithprosser
Ok but now there are six secularmerlins. Is each not a functional individual?
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@secularmerlin
ah, but that isn't what happens in a normal teleport! If its all the same to you I'd like to return to that later and stick ot whether the 'you' after teleporting is the 'you' before teleporting (assuming all goes well).
One test would be to see if Mrs SecularMerlin could tell if you had teleported home or come by plane after a business trip.
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@keithprosser
Ah but it could be how a normal transporter works of it were programmed that way. And assuming it has been programmed to create six identical versions of each passenger how do we go about sorting out which "You" is the you from before transport?
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@secularmerlin
Well I think you're trying to evade the issue I want to debate, but I'd say it depends on why you want to make the determination. You could do it using the same basis the oldest son inherits a royal title - ie you make up an arbitrary rule. The rule for inheriting royal titles could be that the middle daughter gets it, but it isn't - at least not on earth; it is on Rigel 7.
So step a) determine why want to identify only one clone as privileged.
step b)invent a rule to achieve the goal of a).
I can imagine suddenly having 7 husbands would be a logistical challenge to mrs secularmerlin, but there is no paradox involved to make such menages-a-huit logically impossible.
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@keithprosser
Sorry I'm not purposely tryingvto evade what issue are you trying to debate?
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@keithprosser
That covers a lot of ground Keith including which of the seven secularmerlin is the real secularmerlin.
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@secularmerlin
They are all 'real'. I assume you mean 'original', which is not problematic assuming you bother to keep track because the way you've set it up (using a replicator) there is 'physical continuity' between 1 of the 7 and the original.
I suppose for most scenarios thephysically continuous one would be considered the 'real' one, but as i said they are all physicaly real so the 'physically continous' entity is only a sort of 'legal successor'. As in my royal titles example you could make the rule to say its the last copy made that is the 'legal successor' so although 'physically contiupus' seems definite and objective using that criterion it as the criterion for 'realness' is an arbitrary choice.
If the original is destroyed then no surviving entity is physically continous. As all entites are equivalent in all regards it ts obvious any rule for detmining 'realness' must be arbitrary.
Do you agree or do you think there is an objective reason to privilege physical continuity?
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@keithprosser
If considering one of the seven the original is arbitrary is it not also arbitrary to consider just one the original also arbitrary? And that I think is what you really want to discuss.
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@secularmerlin
I'm happy discussing broadly!
There's no practical reason to discuss this because there are no replicating teleporters today, but if there ever were we'd need laws to cover such eventualities. It's good to examine the almost hidden assumptions we might make such as privileging phyiscal continuity. That might be the best course, but it needs to be thought about first.
Uploading your consciousness into a micro-chip might be an alternative to cryogenic preservation sooner than we have replicators (although I think its fanciful - I'm just doing thought experiments here). Any ideas you'd like to float abut that, given what we've said so far?
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@keithprosser
About uploading your conciousness in digital form? Only that this would not in my estimation be me.
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@keithprosser
Like the journal it is only the recipe and if you make two identical cakes using the same recipe they are not the same cake so any thing eventually created from this recipe would also not be me although it might think it was.
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@secularmerlin
I think you'd agree that is because of the principle of physical continuity? That might seem unimportant but Bertrand Russel said
"The point of philosophy is to start with something so simple as not to seem worth stating, and to end with something so paradoxical that no one will believe it."
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@keithprosser
Indeed physical continuity is the key to why I do not wish to be transported. The pattern (often referred to in episodes centering around transporter technology as a plot device) is only the recipe and when someone is transported they are not the same cake.
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@3RU7AL
Matter is comprised of energy. ANY ENERGY.
"Matter" = energy i.e. to say that ...."matter is composed of energy".. is redundant.
The transporter buffer is simply a data set.
Presumption of a transporter that uses bufferring. Any such transporter may not be possible to store temporarily a "data set".
Or there may exist laws, that, do not allow such data set to be stored, because, if storeable. then the potential for cloning -i.e. Government Issue { G.I. Joe humans }-- becomes possible.
So the transporter of humans may involve a more direct 1:1 ratio of streaming data sthat disassembles > * v * /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ * v * > reassembles using a gravitational tube{ worm-hole-like } of existing gravitational space without introduction of additional energy/matter ---i.e. no carrier wave-- beyond what energy/matter that composes the human.
I'm not a transporter engineer, just a philosopher with various ---if not many-- handy-man abilities.
Umbilical chord is a tube
Blood vessel is a tube
Disgestive tract is a tube
Fallopian tubes
Birth canal is a tube{?}
torus is a tube
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.......2--------8----10-----------14-----16----------20----22-----------..........
...."1131.13 The omnitriangulated strip is an extraordinary mathematical transformation in which you can graphically accommodate the omni-directionality of all systems in an exactly coordinated mathematical accounting. It can project and print out on a strip all gravitational and radiational data, be they in the form of stars, fishes, or anything.
...They are all coordinatably print-outable onto one continuous flat ribbon map. What we have is a true prototype of an omnidirectional typewriter. It can print out each omni-embracing layer of each frequency layer of each convergent-divergentsystem.
When you print out the omnidata on such a strip, it identifies specifically where and when each event in thetransformation occurs."...
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"physical" = "energy"
To become omni-considerate requires a 6 chords -- /\ /\-- of a tetrahedron minimally ergo minimal 3D consideration.
4 viewpoints of tetrahedron complements 6 chords of tetrahedron.
..."Like magic! He achieved this by dividing the globe into 96 triangles and projecting them onto a tetrahedron, preserving the proportions of water and land. Then he unfolded the tetrahedron into a rectangle, where the 96 sections created a map resembling the surface of the original globe, only flat.".....
.."Have you ever wondered how your GPS receiver works? They use a technique called trilateration.
Despite how GPS receivers are often confused with triangulation (which measures angles), they really don’t use angles at all.
Trilateration involves measuring distances."....
..."Because we have a third satellite, it reveals your true location where all three circles intersect.
...Using three distances, trilateration can pinpoint a precise location. Each satellite is at the center of a sphere and where they all intersect is the position of the GPS receiver.
....As the position of the GPS receiver moves, the radius of each circle (distance) will also change."
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@drafterman
Please cite the episode and season numbers on which you base this assertion.One's a soulless automaton.
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@secularmerlin
Have you seen the 2006 movie "The Prestige"?Indeed physical continuity is the key to why I do not wish to be transported. The pattern (often referred to in episodes centering around transporter technology as a plot device) is only the recipe and when someone is transported they are not the same cake.
It covers this territory quite well, I think you'd enjoy it.
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@secularmerlin
Turing test.About uploading your consciousness in digital form? Only that this would not in my estimation be me.
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@3RU7AL
Okay. Before I go all hypernerd, let me just say that the simplest explanation is that Star Trek's portrayal of transporters (as well as many other concepts) is simply inconsistent. Different writers over different series that wrote for specific episodes with little concern for overall continuity except in the broadest sense.
So, no, not everything I say is explicitly stated or confirmed in any given episode.
However, if - like me - you like to try and tackle these issues from an in-universe perspective, minimizing contradictions and inconsistencies wherever they appear, then I think you can draw some reasonable logical conclusions.
On with the show:
In the real world, energy (in the physical scientific sense) cannot exist separate from matter. It is defined by how it influences and changes the behavior of matter.
In Star Trek, energy is repeatedly treated as something separate and distinct from matter. There are innumerable instances of pure energy beings existing separate from physical forms, but nevertheless capable of interacting with and inhabiting those forms. Most relevant to this conversation is Lonely Among Us (Next Generation, Season 1, Episode 7):
RIKER: Beam him back as what? He's nothing but energy now.
An alien energy being had inhabited and taken control of Picard's body. It used the transporter to beam them both into outer space but abandoned Picard after doing so. Note that no physical body materialized at the destination location. Beaming him back was considered impossible because there was nothing to beam.
However, they could reconstruct his physical form using transporter logs:
DATA: I knew we had to have the Captain's physical pattern here, sir. He was the last one to beam out.
But, contrary to your plan to simply use any source of energy to reconstruct the body, the combination of physical form and non-physical energy is required for success here:
RIKER: Is what you're thinking possible?DATA: Unknown at this time, sir. I hope the Captain remembers his physical pattern is here. If he has, his energy has moved into the transporter relays by now.RIKER: I wish we had some sign that he's in here. I guess we have no choice but to risk it.
Rather than just a one-off comment, it is later confirmed that living beings consist of physical forms and mental energy which transporter technology treats separately:
EDDINGTON: The holosuite is specifically designed to store highly complex energy patterns. The computer's processing their physical patterns as if they were holosuite characters. Trouble is, I'm not reading any neural energy.
(Our Man Bashir, Deep Space Nine, Season 4, Episode 10)
It's further stated that while physical patterns are rather trivial to store, it is the neural energy that is the most complex element, requiring the entire space station to store the information. This raises the question of why it doesn't take an entire space station's worth of computer storage every time they transport? This isn't stated, but it seems that the neural energy isn't "stored" during normal operation (in contrast with physical patterns, which are stored and logged) but merely transferred from source to destination.
So, what to make of the events of Second Chances (Next Generation, Season 6, Episode 24)? Even in-universe we really don't know as the answer given is educated speculation:
LAFORGE: Apparently there was a massive energy surge in the distortion field around the planet just at the moment you tried to beam out. The Transporter Chief tried to compensate by initiating a second containment beam.DATA: An interesting approach. He must have been planning to reintegrate the two patterns in the transport buffer.LAFORGE: Actually, it wasn't really necessary. Commander Riker's pattern maintained its integrity with just the one containment beam. He made it back to the ship just fine.CRUSHER: What happened to the second beam?LAFORGE: The Transporter Chief shut it down, but somehow it was reflected back to the surface.PICARD: And another William Riker materialised there.RIKER: How was the second pattern able to maintained its integrity?LAFORGE: The containment beam must have had the exact same phase differential as the distortion field.
The pattern here being the physical pattern and the containment beam being what ensures it maintains its integrity and arrives at its destination rather than scattering all across the universe. The physical energy that made up Riker's second physical body that materialized came either from energy inherent in the containment beam and/or the energy surge in the distortion field.
The only question that remains: Where did the neural energy come from?!
We know that the transporter doesn't normally store or process this energy. Since the transporter doesn't deal with this information, it couldn't be easily copied like a physical pattern could have. Our only choices seem to be:
a) it was copied through some other means
b) it wasn't copied and Thomas Riker doesn't possess neural energy.
Either of these would be singular events within the Star Trek universe, so looking to specific examples doesn't help us. So it would seem that the answer simply lies with whatever you think is most sensible. Both are consistent with dualism and my tossing out of (b) is more of a lark than anything, the amusing depiction of a Riker clone as a soulless automaton.
But the end result is that, in the Star Trek universe, living organisms (or at least humans) have a kind of energy that is separate and distinct from their physical bodies and not at all like the typical physical energy we mean when we traditionally use the term.
Drafterman---In the real world, energy (in the physical scientific sense) cannot exist separate from matter. It is defined by how it influences and changes the behavior of matter.
Wow, D-man finally coming to his senses in these regards. I knew he had it in him.
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Biologics transported in gravitational worm-hole/tube. Spiral tube to be more exact
...."1131.13 The omnitriangulated strip{ /\/\/\/ } is an extraordinary mathematical transformation in which you can graphically accommodate the omni-directionality of all systems in an exactly coordinated mathematical accounting. It can project and print out on a strip all gravitational and radiational data, be they in the form of stars, fishes, or anything.
...They are all coordinatably print-outable onto one continuous flat ribbon map. What we have is a true prototype of an omnidirectional typewriter. It can print out each omni-embracing layer of each frequency layer of each convergent-divergentsystem.
When you print out the omnidata on such a strip, it identifies specifically where and when each event in thetransformation occurs."...
Physical = energy
Matter = energy either as fermions or bosons altho there appears to be a new, 3rd catagory
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@secularmerlin
@keithprosser
@drafterman
I thought you guys might get a kick out of this -
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@3RU7AL
That is funny but just a little sad.