Question for gun control supporters. pro 2nd amendment people can BTFO

Author: PREZ-HILTON

Posts

Total: 80
Topic's author
#1
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
I want to ask about a hypothetical scenario and learn not only what your response would be, but why.

Let's say in this hypothetical. There exists 2 islands. One island has 5000 people and so does the other Island. One island every person owns a gun, so does the other one. The only difference between these 2 islands that we are going to discuss, is that one of the islands has zero gun deaths per year on average, while the other Island has 5 gun deaths a year.

Island A= 
population= 5000
guns= 5000
gun deaths= 0

island B

Population= 5000
guns= 5000
gun deaths = 5

So we can know from the following, that clearly gun deaths are not caused primarily by the number of guns. So something else is going on. I am asking you guys to share, so I will share first.

My inclination is towards a pro freedom approach (as defined by libertarian ideology) . I would avoid banning guns at all costs or regulating them in any way, because there is a counter example of an island that doesn't need gun control measures to eliminate shootings. I personally would find out what other factors contribute to gun deaths and try to work on fixing those factors. 

My intuition is that a lot of real life gun control advocates would still advocate for more gun control even knowing what we know above about the other island. If number of guns are not to blame,.

1. if there are other things that contributed to gun violence, are you guys still proposing gun control methods for island B?

2. Would you consider reducing gun control measures on island B, if the contributing factors for gun violence outside of guns, were solved?

more important than the answers to those questions is an explanation for why you are answering the way you are.
Topic's author
#2
PREZ-HILTON
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 2,806
3
4
9
PREZ-HILTON's avatar
PREZ-HILTON
3
4
9
-->
@whiteflame
something our discussions off site made me think about, because I assume you would still propose gun control measures on island B. Care to explain your reasonings or at least clear up my misunderstanding of your position?
#3
whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 4,825
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
There are a lot of basic assumptions built into this that would not apply in a real world setting. The way you've set this up, neither population is growing and one is contracting. They both have fixed rates of gun deaths, though you don't include any statistics on gun violence rates, so it's entirely possible that both populations experience some degree of gun violence. Both islands clearly don't feature any children, since they can't own guns in basically any population.

So yeah, there would be fewer questions as to a probable cause for the higher death toll on Island B, though it strikes me that taking away one of the methods to resolve the causes is not terribly smart, particularly given that one of the populations is contracting at a rapid rate. If we do come down on a specific cause of the death toll on Island B, we would presumably want to stop those gun deaths. That can take a lot of forms, including incarcerations and/or institutionalizations. I think that taking guns from those people would meaningfully affect gun deaths. Seems like something that is worth testing since you have such a nicely controlled population.

But I think what you're getting at is the imposition of specific gun controls, and I'm unclear what those are. Could you clarify what you would view as gun control in this hypothetical scenario that would stray outside of what you think is reasonable?
#4
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
Are you saying we should be less diverse like the Swiss? Diversity conflict is fun though! Def worth a few deaths here and there.
#5
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
If we can't keep atheist out of the religion forum then you don't get to keep pro  second amendment people out of gun topics.
#6
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
What? “Pro-2nd amendment people” are saying that gun control is unconstitutional, not because it is unsafe.
#7
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,078
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@PREZ-HILTON
All that  this goes to prove, is that if there were no guns there would be no gun deaths.

The question is, how many gun deaths per annum are you prepared to tolerate.

The current U.S. situation is based upon the acceptance of a tolerable rate of gun death per capita per annum.

The conclusion of which is that gun ownership is more important that a few dead kids.

A few dead kids simply becoming nothing more than a sporadic a media sensation.
#8
Danielle
Danielle's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 2,049
3
3
4
Danielle's avatar
Danielle
3
3
4
Everyone knows that the number of guns in the U.S. is not to blame for gun violence. That doesn't justify letting everyone have access to any guns they want as soon as they want them with no regulations.  If that's the case then we should allow victims of gun violence to sue gun manufacturers to the same extent that every other manufacturer (except vaccines) can be sued for product liability. 

#9
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,078
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Danielle
Excellent idea.
#10
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
-->
@Danielle
Everyone knows that the number of guns in the U.S. is not to blame for gun violence.
It baffles me someone could even write that tbh. Do you not think the presence of guns makes it more likely cops will shoot whatever black kid upon arriving at the scene? But I suppose that's hood culture or something, not guns. 

America's gun culture very closely resembles the prisoner's dilemma of game theory. After a point, it becomes only reasonable to shoot the place up. Everyone armed to the teeth in the first place  doesn't ever look good for cooperation. 

I mean, whatever about the dark hearts of people, but a gun in your hand is a devil on your shoulder. It's obvious the very existence of guns in the first place is a corruption. 
#11
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@badger
 It's obvious the very existence of guns in the first place is a corruption. 
Deep stuff. You might as well say the existence of man is a corruption.

 the prisoner's dilemma of game theory.
If the prisoners had the same guns as the police, they wouldn't be playing their game. Literally the reason for the 2nd A.

Good fences make good neighbors, and so do stocked gun cabinets.
#12
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
Deep stuff. You might as well say the existence of man is a corruption.

It needn't be so deep. You've got 120 guns per 100 people. People are getting shot. Your kids are shooting other kids. There's simple, human answers here. 

Good fences make good neighbors, and so do stocked gun cabinets.

I got zero doubt the presence of so many guns inspires a sociopathy and worse. 
#13
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@badger
I got zero doubt the presence of so many guns inspires a sociopathy and worse. 

That's like saying fences inspire home invasions lol!
#14
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
You think there's absolutely nothing to what I've said?
#15
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@badger
Guns are more of a protection from sociopaths than a driver of sociopaths. By far.

USA creates more sociopaths through tribal politics and enforced diversity than guns do. The Swiss don't have nearly so much conflict despite all the guns. 

Swiss have VERY good fences.

This has been heavily researched by sociologists.
#16
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
Your kids are shooting each other, you have the highest gun deaths in the first world by far, and the US and Switzerland are very high on the list of burglaries per capita. 

Also the Swiss have one quarter of your guns. 

What are you even talking about?
#17
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
Old man FLRW is deleting posts again. 
#18
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,611
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@badger

Sorry, I didn't want to mess up your argument with GP.
#19
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@badger
Did you even look at the graphs?
#20
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@FLRW
Sorry, I didn't want to mess up your argument with GP.
Badger doesn't argue. He discusses.
#21
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,611
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@badger

You know,  I have my own series now on FX called The Old Man. I look just like him.
#22
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@badger
 the US and Switzerland are very high on the list of burglaries per capita. 
They really are not that comparable lol. 


Omg Australia...no guns and double the USA rate lol. Where are the Aussie fences?

#23
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
Did you even look at the graphs?

I gave the article a very brief look and no doubt racial and ethnic tensions lead to violence. Where does this relate to schoolchildren shooting their peers? 
#24
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@badger
Because you don't cry about a dramatically exploding boiler on the Titanic when there is a huge hole tin the ship that indirectly caused it.

Well I guess you can if it makes you feel better.
#25
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
Omg Australia...no guns and double the USA rate lol. Where are the Aussie fences?
You're the one saying that stocked gun cabinets make good neighbours. There's 50 countries with no guns below the US and Switzerland on that list. What's the science here, exactly? 
#26
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@badger
The point is without fences keeping people well behaved, guns will always bring out the worst in us.

Maybe the USA should ban guns until they can figure that out.
#27
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
I mean I addressed a post made by Danielle that I found to be absurd. It was that everybody knows that numbers of guns don't lead to gun violence. I'll readily admit that racial tensions lead to violence, and dealing with that is another topic. But maybe the slave ship has sailed on that one, eh. Made your bed, that sort of thing. Do you think that number of guns has no impact on gun violence?
#28
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
-->
@Greyparrot
Because you don't cry about a dramatically exploding boiler on the Titanic when there is a huge hole tin the ship that indirectly caused it.

Well I guess you can if it makes you feel better.

As to this post, your children are shooting each other. What's the point of politics at all if that's "drama"?
#29
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,993
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@badger
You just don't hear the stories about the many more kids being killed by grown men with guns in Chicago. That's the hole I was referring to.
#30
badger
badger's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,243
3
3
3
badger's avatar
badger
3
3
3
As to guns protecting against home invasion, and I mean I'm sure they probably do to some extent, but I've heard a lot of stories over the years of homes being invaded in order to steal guns: https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/four-guns-stolen-during-burglary-9967004

The very famous Guy Ritchie crime movie Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels also deals in part with a home invasion in order to steal shotguns, so the Brits are probably hearing the same stories. 

The utility of guns in civilian hands is dubious. The harms, on the other hand, are obvious.