Question for gun control supporters. pro 2nd amendment people can BTFO

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@Double_R
I take from your statement you would ban guns entirely. Am I interpreting that correctly?

they'll just use other means to commit murder. I've never heard of an innocent bystander getting accidentally stabbed.
Stabbing is to high risk of losing the fight. An intelligent murderer will just turn to things like poison, which could affect innocent bystanders.

Besides that, many guns are counterfeit and imported from South America. We also have the ability to make what's known as "zip guns". So you can't really eliminate access to fire arms. Best you can do is disarm people who previously had the legal ability to defend themselves.

What's debatable are our rights. I'll never understand the idea that I should have the right to increase my own protection by reducing the safety of everyone else around me.
That's because you are using the incorrect definition of rights. When people speak of rights. At least people who have studied political philosophy, they are narrowing that definition to mean "negative rights" mostly because what philosophers refer to as positive rights, are really just ways to restrict the negative rights of others.
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@PREZ-HILTON
I take from your statement you would ban guns entirely. Am I interpreting that correctly?
I would prefer to live in a society where no one outside of law enforcement is permitted to own a gun, but I live in a country with a constitution, history, and circumstances which make that a practical impossibility. So if I had it my way I would put in place a number of restrictions to include expanded background checks, waiting periods, assault weapons ban, extended magazine ban, etc.

Stabbing is to high risk of losing the fight.
I'm far more concerned that everyone involved and even those who were not live.

An intelligent murderer will just turn to things like poison, which could affect innocent bystanders.
I've never understood how this argument makes sense to anyone.

If we were to ban guns, how many gun homicides every year do you seriously believe would be replaced by poisonings? It's the same logic as me arguing that we should stop locking our doors at night because someone can just break into a window.

Besides that, many guns are counterfeit and imported from South America. We also have the ability to make what's known as "zip guns". So you can't really eliminate access to fire arms. Best you can do is disarm people who previously had the legal ability to defend themselves.
Two different problems here.

The fact that technology has gotten to the point where a gun can be manufactured at home is not a reason to throw our hands up in the air. It's a problem we can solve if we want to. It reminds me of the freak out in the wake of Napster, saying the music industry was toast. Never happened because we decided to do something about it.

The second is the idea that all we can do is disarm law abiding citizens, which is a nonsense talking point. No one is proposing we pass laws telling criminals they're not allowed to be criminals. What were talking about are laws that restrict gun dealers, which are overwhelmingly law abiding citizens. Criminals still have to attain the guns, if there are less of them out there and more hoops to jump through them that will reduce the number of "bad guys" who get their hands on them.

But beyond that we also have to remember that every criminal starts off as a law abiding citizen, so this notion that we can somehow distinguish who in our society is a good guy vs a bad guy is a very childish way of looking at things. It is only after the crime has already been committed that any of this comes into play, by that point it's too late.

That's because you are using the incorrect definition of rights. When people speak of rights. At least people who have studied political philosophy, they are narrowing that definition to mean "negative rights" mostly because what philosophers refer to as positive rights, are really just ways to restrict the negative rights of others.
There is nothing incorrect about my usage of the term and none of this is relavant to my point.

A negative right is a right not to be subjected to the actions of another while a positive right is the right to be subjected to the actions of another. The right to not be shot is a negative right, the right to trial by jury is a positive right. Neither is more legitimate than the other.

My point is that one's positive right to carry a gun conflicts with the negative right of everyone around them to be safe from a potential flying bullet. You can disagree with that statement, but there is nothing unreasonable about that.
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@Double_R
Thank you for clarifying your position a bit.

If we were to ban guns, how many gun homicides every year do you seriously believe would be replaced by poisonings?
All I know is that if I wanted to murder somebody, the presence of lack of a gun wouldn't make the attempt any more or less likely.

What were talking about are laws that restrict gun dealers, which are overwhelmingly law abiding citizens. Criminals still have to attain the guns, if there are less of them out there and more hoops to jump through them that will reduce the number of "bad guys" who get their hands on them.
Than it would probably help your point if instead of framing the debate as pro or anti gun, that people who want to propose these policies state which policy they support rather than make vague generalizations about people who are pro gun. I just don't see it. I don't see threads started here with actual policy suggestions. Just vague anti gun statements and debates about complete bans of guns. I might even agree with some gun legislation. I just never hear about it. The rare cases I do hear about it, I see people like Michael Moore in documentaries grabbing a gun when opening an account at a bank, and then finding out later he did have to have a background check and wait 7 days, but he refused to put it in the documentary. 

I don't know if you are passionate about the issue, but you could persuade me to your side by making a policy suggestions I can actually think about 


A negative right is a right not to be subjected to the actions of another while a positive right is the right to be subjected to the actions of another. The right to not be shot is a negative right, the right to trial by jury is a positive right. Neither is more legitimate than the other.
Yeah, good catch. I think I reversed the definitions there. 

I would say one is more legitimate than another though. The reason we want laws that protect negative rights and avoid ones that acknowledge the existence of positive rights, is that positive rights are more prone to bias, they are more abstract and some of those positive rights impose duties on people. For example the right to free healthcare would impose the duty of providing that healthcare 

Now Doctors absolutely should accept the duty to care for the poor by doing pro Bono work for up to 20% of clients or use a sliding scale fee (things that actually happened before FDR ruined it), but the government should not be imposing the duty due to ethical concerns and the possibility that the government does not balance the rights of clients and doctors appropriately. 

I would compare the government requiring duties, even in a general way is a type of involuntary servitude, which we as a society have determined is unethical 
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@PREZ-HILTON
All I know is that if I wanted to murder somebody, the presence of lack of a gun wouldn't make the attempt any more or less likely.
It probably wouldn't be reported as much by the Media though since they take their orders from people with guns.

Same amount of deaths with more feelgoods.
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@PREZ-HILTON
All I know is that if I wanted to murder somebody, the presence of lack of a gun wouldn't make the attempt any more or less likely.
I think you know very well that this claim is just silly. When gangs decide that someone who crosses them needs to die, one thing I doubt anyone has ever heard of is a gang poisoning.

People use guns because they are easier, meaning it takes far less effort and less precision to kill someone. Those are the very qualities that impact likelihood of success. This is not a debatable point.

Than it would probably help your point if instead of framing the debate as pro or anti gun, that people who want to propose these policies state which policy they support rather than make vague generalizations about people who are pro gun.
It's not my fault nor that of any gun advocate that those who are in disagreement do not bother to listen to and understand opposing view points.

The debate is often framed as pro gun or anti gun because how we view guns in general tends to determine which proposals we ultimately accept as beneficial to society, so it is worth diving into our core values and beliefs on this as opposed to starting off with specific proposals.

The same can be said the other way around as well. This is part of why the country is so divided. The fact is that most people are far more in agreement on the basics than we think, but we spend so much time demonizing each other to bother to listen to each other.

For example the right to free healthcare would impose the duty of providing that healthcare 
No, it doesn't. Rights in this sense don't mean that someone had a right to this service even if there is no one willing to provide it. We're not talking about putting a gun to a doctor's head and forcing them to work for free. It means that we as a society will take responsibility for providing it by funding it. The right to a trial by jury is another positive right, but I've never heard of anyone taking issue with that on the same grounds.

I'm curious as to why you went there however since the right I am talking about is a negative right, and because there is no dispute on whether negative rights as a concept are any less legitimate than positive rights, this entire point seems mute here.

Again, my position is that the right to enhance ones personal protection by carrying a firearm comes at the expense of reducing the safety of everyone around them. Do you believe it is therefore justified to allow this?
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 The right to a trial by jury is another positive right, but I've never heard of anyone taking issue with that on the same grounds.

I got out of jury duty once. It wasn't easy but you can do it.
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@Double_R
People use guns because they are easier, meaning it takes far less effort and less precision to kill someone. Those are the very qualities that impact likelihood of success. This is not a debatable point
It's more likely to lead to your eventual arrest unless the killing is completely random. So no I don't get this at all. If I ever killed somebody, I'd definitely use a method that gave me more plausible deniability. 

The same can be said the other way around as well. This is part of why the country is so divided. The fact is that most people are far more in agreement on the basics than we think, but we spend so much time demonizing each other to bother to listen to each other.

I am done doing that. Hopefully you are as well.

I'm curious as to why you went there however since the right I am talking about is a negative right, and because there is no dispute on whether negative rights as a concept are any less legitimate than positive rights, this entire point seems mute here.

There is a ton of dispute. I think John Locke was the earliest well known person to talk about the difference and why one is more legitimate than the other.

The issue is that negative rights could more easily mean the government picking favorites and making biased decisions while focusing on positive rights can pretty much eliminate all government bias in decision making. That is why positive rights are unethical to legislate. 

Positive rights can easily descend into shit like "I have the negative rights to have water fountains that only people with my skin color use" while positive rights would completely eliminate any possible way to create a racist law or a law that favors the rich or one that favors the poor or a specific religion. 


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@Double_R
Just read this article. It better explains the concept than I can. https://fee.org/articles/the-perils-of-positive-rights/
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@PREZ-HILTON
It's more likely to lead to your eventual arrest unless the killing is completely random. So no I don't get this at all. If I ever killed somebody, I'd definitely use a method that gave me more plausible deniability.
In very specific circumstances, and especially when not getting caught is the primary consideration, people might choose another means to kill someone. But again, other methods require planning and precision, which greatly diminishes the odds of their success.

Very few people who are afraid of going to jail for life to the point they would choose a method such as poisoning, would find it worth while to kill someone else at all. And people are inherently lazy, so if they can accomplish their goal with a bullet most would just do that instead.

This conversation isn't about you or any other anecdote, it's about society at large. Guns are by far the easiest and most effective way to kill someone else, that's literally what they are designed to do. To argue that gun homicides would just be replaced by other means is silly.

The issue is that negative rights could more easily mean the government picking favorites and making biased decisions while focusing on positive rights can pretty much eliminate all government bias in decision making. That is why positive rights are unethical to legislate. 
I really don't understand the argument here. You start off by attacking negative rights by pointing to them being more easily biased and then conclude that this is why positive rights are unethical. I think you misspoke somewhere.

I also take issue with this article. In it he makes the case that:

"“Positive rights” trump freedom. According to this doctrine, human beings by nature owe, as a matter of enforceable obligation, part or even all of their lives to other persons."

But this is not true. A right to an attorney is a positive right but no attorney is being forced to represent you, it simply means the state is providing one for you (as in paying for it). Of course it's true that a state forcing someone to provide a service to you would be considered a positive right but the issue there is not the concept of a positive right but rather how that right is being applied. Just because something can be used in an unjust way does not mean it is inherently unjust.
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@Double_R
This conversation isn't about you or any other anecdote, it's about society at large. Guns are by far the easiest and most effective way to kill someone else, that's literally what they are designed to do. To argue that gun homicides would just be replaced by other means is silly.
I sent whiteflame some scenarios I'm how a mass murderer could commit a larger number of murders by avoiding guns and spreading his kills out over a longer time frame. It would be inappropriate to mention those scenarios here, but they weren't too hard to think of.

It's a low IQ move to use guns in general for planned murders, and they increase your chances of getting caught over more subtle methods of murder. 


But this is not true. A right to an attorney is a positive right but no attorney is being forced to represent you, it simply means the state is providing one for you (as in paying for it).
Are taxes voluntary now? There is some form of government coercion at some point, and how would they gauruntee that right if every attorney refused to do it? 

7 days later

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@PREZ-HILTON
It's a low IQ move to use guns in general for planned murders, and they increase your chances of getting caught over more subtle methods of murder. 
So what? You continue to ignore basic human nature. We're not talking about what's possible or what could theoretically work given the right set of circumstances. We're talking about how society actually works and what solutions actually address real problems within it.

Most people with the high IQ, drive, and patience for precision planning needed to commit the perfect murder have better things to do with their lives than kill people.

how would they gauruntee that right if every attorney refused to do it? 
They don't.

This is like asking how the government can guarantee you that no one will murder you. What the government guarantees you is that they will do their part in ensuring you enjoy whatever rights you have, not that those rights cannot be taken away by the rest of society.
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@Double_R
So what? You continue to ignore basic human nature.
I work from the assumption that people are logical and rational beings and make decisions based on those things.

how would they gauruntee that right if every attorney refused to do it? 
They don't.

This is like asking how the government can guarantee you that no one will murder you. What the government guarantees you is that they will do their part in ensuring you enjoy whatever rights you have, not that those rights cannot be taken away by the rest of society.

That's not how rights work. If a government declares something a right they have to ensure the right, even if it means enslaving people to do so. If every qualified attorney refused to do so they would have to implement punishments to coerce them. 

Which is why you shouldn't have positive rights as something a government promises ever. 


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@Double_R
What do you think of this guy?

Do you think it would be better off if he was unarmed?

https://youtu.be/mA5M3BmtJZM
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@PREZ-HILTON
Case in point, if you dodge jury duty, the government can impose penalties because the government has made it  a right to have a trial by jury so they must enslave 12 people to provide that right.
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@Wylted
--> @Double_R
What do you think of this guy?

Do you think it would be better off if he was unarmed?

He was in the wrong place. Two died despite him carrying a gun.
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@PREZ-HILTON
I work from the assumption that people are logical and rational beings and make decisions based on those things.
Then you would be wrong. There is a reason your coffee cup says "caution, hot" on it, because people will burn themselves and then claim it's the Barista's fault for making it got enough to burn them.

You continue to look at this through the wrong lense. Any individual person can be smart, methodical, etc. That's not what public policy is based on, it's based on the masses. And time after time again the masses prove that extreme caution is necessary to protect people's safety.

That's not how rights work. If a government declares something a right they have to ensure the right, even if it means enslaving people to do so. 
Rights are not some mystical force imposed by a diety. They don't come with magical powers, and they don't rule over us. So no, a government does not have to be willing to enslave someone in order to legitimately tell you that you have a right to an attorney. The defies basic logic and common sense, as enslaving someone is not only flagrantly immoral, but also deprives the enslaved of their right to freedom (a far more fundamental right).

Rights are a human construct. They are nothing more than one person or person's declaring that they will do whatever is in their power uphold them for those they are granting them to.

They are not a guarantee of outcome. A right to life does not mean the government is guaranteeing you that you will live, they are guaranteeing you that they will not kill you.

The same thing is true of positive rights; they are not a guarantee of outcome.

This is really basic stuff.
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@Wylted
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--> @Double_R
Just read this article. It better explains the concept than I can. https://fee.org/articles/the-perils-of-positive-rights/
One would assume positive rights are good and negative rights bad.

But to an American the opposite is true.

Abortion (Roe V. Wade) was seen as positive for 50 years then turned negative by the Supreme Court.
Some might see a need to redefine positive and negative.
But what was declared as settled law is not unsettled. 
We should leave English to the British and let the British do our translations.



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@Double_R
How do you not grasp the fact that rights impose duties. I think Aristotle discovered this like 3000 years ago
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@PREZ-HILTON
No one said they don't. You ignored every point I made in order to respond to an argument I didn't make.

Duties, just like rights, are not absolute. Especially when they come into conflict with each other.

This is really basic stuff.

56 days later

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