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@disgusted
You know that I am a Christian defending atheists and now you have nothing. Admit it, sprerg.
There is no such thing as an Atheists.
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518
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@KingLaddy01
You know that I am a Christian defending atheists and now you have nothing. Admit it, sprerg.
I don't speak gibberish, what does that mean?
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@disgusted
Then you read at an elementary level or possibly below.
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@Mopac
Well, for it to be what it is, it must be ONE. The Ultimate Reality, by definition must be 1.
I agree, in practical terms, there would be no conceivable way of identifying or detecting individual or disparate parts of or duplicates or multiples of "NTURTTGgTS" and therefore it can logically be considered uniform and singular.
Reality apart from The Ultimate Reality is nonexistence.
I agree 100%.
Time as a reality can only exist by The Ultimate Reality.
In the same exact way that all reality can only exist by "NTURTTGgTS".
time can have no dominion over The Ultimate Reality.
Perhaps not "dominion" but it may very well be a fundamental aspect of "NTURTTGgTS" and at the same time it might not be. The assertion, either way on this point is beyond our epistemological limits.
The Ultimate Reality cannot change, because if it changed, that would mean that it is subject to causal forces.
It also follows quite logically that if "NTURTTGgTS" cannot change, then no change can ever occur ever anywhere (within any reality).
I prefer to concede that whether or not "NTURTTGgTS" can or cannot change, the assertion, either way on this point is beyond our epistemological limits.
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@3RU7AL
"Practically", everybody uses "common sense" much of the time.I've always found "common sense" to be such an amorphous concept that it is practically meaningless.
Common sense, like all else is relative to the context of any set of circumstances.
Those people who are not familiar with this or that, will not find "common sense" relevant to something they have no education about.
When the icons{ pictographs } in automobiles began coming out, not everybody new what they each of those iconic symbols meant.
What is common to most amount/quantity of humans will have the most relevance to the phrase "common sense".
It is common sense, that the longer we leave the lingam { y } in the yoni { X } the greater the chance woman will get pregnant.
...at least it is common sense to the adults who who have been around longer...
It is common sense, that, if you walk to close to the edge of the cliff/road the greater the chance you will fall off.
.....again, children learn common sense from experience as they grow into adulthood....
It is common sense, --at least to Newton-- that if the apple falls to the ground, there is a cause and effect reason for that falling into the Earth and not away from the Earth.
..again this relevant to context of scientists who think about this kind of stuff.....
So common sense is derived from experience i.e. experience, derived from our nervous system and nervous systems experiences are common to all humans.
.....ergo the phrase "common sense" is used to search your memory banks to find and experience that relates to set of circumstances in front of you-us.......
It is common sense that Trumps is the worst president USA has ever had. Yes there are those who keep repeating look at the economics.
Go to this following URL and see 2nd chart 1990s GDP World Growth Chart and you will see it was flat until 1600's and then took off vertically in 1800s > industrial age and shooting vertical ever since.
Be sure to read a few of the comments at bottom of that
..."Previously when I saw great growth, I was "of course", aren't we great?! But now, when one sees exponential growth, one wonders "how stable that can that be?"....
..."It definitely raises questions, as well. Too much of a good thing is always suspect!"....
What is economic "common sense"? Can it be common if it is so complicated that only those who specialize in it can refer to as "common sense" amongest themselves?
Can we predict the future using "common sense"? Some of Fullers prognistications attempted to that using past historical events, ex the circumnavigation of Earth by human last ending with humans orbiting the Earth led Fuller to predict Star Trek-like teleportation by 1985.
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@3RU7AL
Duhh, I forgot to post URL to global economic growth. Is that a lack of "common sense"?
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@3RU7AL
It also follows quite logically that if "NTURTTGgTS" cannot change, then no change can ever occur ever anywhere (within any reality).
I'm glad you bring this up,
(Time)may very well be a fundamental aspect of "NTURTTGgTS" and at the same time it might not be.
Time cannot be a fundamental aspect of The Ultimate Reality, because The Ultimate Reality certainly does not change, it is constant. Time exists in reality, but time is not ultimately real.
The Ultimate Reality doesn't begin to exist, and it doesn't cease to exist. It is always there. That means, before time, The Ultimate Reality is there. After time, The Ultimate Reality is there.
It looks to us as if there is time, but to The Ultimate Reality, which is not confined to time, even things that have not happened to us are already known.
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@Mopac
This is, surprisingly not a logical contradiction.Time exists in reality, but time is not ultimately real.
Or, if you prefer text -
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@3RU7AL
The universe changes, God does not.
The universe is not God.
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@Mopac
Then the universe can't exist if your god doesn't change.
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@disgusted
Yet, the universe exists, and The Absolute Truth remains the same.
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@Mopac
Stop changing stories. You said your god doesn't change therefore he didn't create the universe.
A god who hasn't created a universe becomes a god who has created a universe after creating a universe, the god has changed.
Your claim is easily refuted.
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@disgusted
Time does not change Absolute Truth, so you are mistaken.
The Ultimate Reality is eternally persistent and eternally consistent.
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@Mopac
So it's true: you lack the capacity to read and understand. If your god created a universe then he changed, it's simple enough for even you to understand.
After you have built your first coffee table you become a man who has built a coffee table, you have changed from the man who hasn't built a coffee table.
Maybe I should get my 7yr old grandson to explain it to you.
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@disgusted
So it's true: you lack the capacity to read and understand. If your god created a universe then he changed, it's simple enough for even you to understand.After you have built your first coffee table you become a man who has built a coffee table, you have changed from the man who hasn't built a coffee table.Maybe I should get my 7yr old grandson to explain it to you.
Well stated.
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@Mopac
The universe [only apparently] changes, God does not.The universe is not [a comprehensive measure of] God [and at the same time, the phenomenal universe itself is a 100% consequence of the nature of God].
You must believe in Parmenides' Block Universe.
Eternalism is a philosophical approach to the ontological nature of time, which takes the view that all existence in time is equally real, as opposed to presentism or the growing block universe theory of time, in which at least the future is not the same as any other time.[1]Some forms of eternalism give time a similar ontology to that of space, as a dimension, with different times being as real as different places, and future events are "already there" in the same sense other places are already there, and that there is no objective flow of time.[2] It is sometimes referred to as the "block time" or "block universe" theory due to its description of space-time as an unchanging four-dimensional "block",[3] as opposed to the view of the world as a three-dimensional space modulated by the passage of time.
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@3RU7AL
@disgusted
What both of you are saying makes good rational sense, surely... if you are seeing God as time bound.
But things only begin to exist in time. With God, it is as if the universe from beginning to end was always there, completed and perfect. There is no, "and then" when it is all complete in The Ultimate Reality.
So no, God does not change because with God there is no changing of states. God is consistently perfect and unchanging. Not a time bound reality.
Specifically to 3ru7al
These three theorems may act as evidences for eternalism.
Quantum no-deletion theorem
Quantum no-cloning theorem
Bell's theorem
And I would argue that this would be an example of how God saves!
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@Mopac
So, do you agree or disagree with Parmenides' Block Universe?
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@3RU7AL
It seems like he might have been on to something.
I will say maybe leaning on probably.
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@3RU7AL
There are actually a lot of writings from monastics who are recognized as saints in the Orthodox Church who say very similar things. I myself, before I ever encountered any of these writings became aware of this during a period in my life after I broke my back and spent a year meditating in a dark room.
I'd like to point out that early church fathers believed that a lot of the things taught in Greek philosophy quite naturally lead to Orthodoxy.
Of course, most people don't know what Christianity is really about because the heretics don't understand the mysteries, and a great deal of what you see on the surface of Christianity is intended to confound the enemies of Truth.
Pretty much anyone who is anti-Christian doesn't really understand it, and that is the point. As long as they are haughty, they never will understand it. Without the right attitude, even the wisest of men will be baffled, and made fools as they war against The Truth itself.
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@Mopac
I see your have mounted the summit of mt hubris.
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@Mopac
There are actually a lot of writings from monastics who are recognized as saints in the Orthodox Church who say very similar things.
Parmenides was not a Christian and therefore Christianity has nothing to do with the "Block Time" or "Block Universe" hypothesis.
I'm not sure how you or anyone else can claim to draw a straight line between "NTURTTGgTS" and any particular religion or worldview or philosophy.
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@3RU7AL
True Religion has existed since the beginning. You understand religion in terms of cultural expressions and labels.
Yet it is written, "The lamb hath been dlain from the foundation of the world". The lamb being Jesus Christ. What this should make clear is that when we talk about Jesus Christ, we are not simply talking about a man who roamed the Earth maybe 2000 years ago. There is a hidden meaning and a mystery that is hidden from those who are not ready to see it. Things are not as they seem, that is what I hope you get about Christianity.
Cultural expressions and labels are not the same thing as The Truth, which is the focus of True Religion.
What does Orthodox mean?
True Belief
And the object of our worship is The Truth. This is what we accept as God.
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@Mopac
Animism has existed since the beginning.True Religion has existed since the beginning.
Monotheism is a remarkably recent development.
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@3RU7AL
+10
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@Polytheist-Witch
@3RU7AL
Was there ever a time when Love of The Truth was not a religion among people?
Even before people or anything at all, The Ultimate Reality existed.
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@Mopac
Cause the ultimate truth said so
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@Polytheist-Witch
You mock, but even you know deep down that The Ultimate Reality exists and is The Lord of All Worlds.
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@Mopac
Even before people or anything at all, The Ultimate Reality existed.
Supply evidence that supports this spurious claim.
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@disgusted
Supply evidence that you understand what you are asking.