Bodily Autonomy

Author: Danielle

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#121
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@Bones
Besides a distorted notion of self ownership, you also have a very loose definition for humanity. Under your definitions, we could be outraged at a cancer survivor. 

She is the one who caused the fetus to exist, and also ironically the one who advocates for its murder. 
If you cause an accident and I am harmed, can I commandeer your body to sustain myself? No. In no other scenario would this be used as justification for negating self-ownership and its just as inappropriate here.

Love the rhetoric. Do you make exceptions for this so called 'murder'? For instance, rape, incest, fetal inviability, maternal endangerment?
#122
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@bmdrocks21
Guess we’re fundamentalists now, according to a guy from the dark ages of critical thought. 

Yeah, thats correct and that all stems from pre-dark age patriachal Bible  that, is 98% non-sense.
#123
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@Bones
Assuming personhood, the fetus still wouldn't have a right to use the body of another without consent. 
The liberty of a mother does not trump a beings right to life. 
do i owe you food and shelter if you're caught in a snow storm ?
#124
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@SkepticalOne
maternal endangerment?
abortion is 14 times safer than live birth
#125
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@SkepticalOne
A right to bodily autonomy would be pointless is it were codified that a woman has unconditional ownership of her fetus. 
Sounds like a good reason not to codify fetal slavery. I'm pretty sure people who argue a fetus is part of the woman's body (of which I'm not one) have no interest in such extreme 'solutions'.
let's simply codify MEDICAL PRIVACY
#126
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Rat-man....since I'd rather kill a fetus in the first couple of months it is being formed in the womb......
Truths fundamentalist virtual rapist run from:

....1} fetus/baby is not a  lung-air inspiriting human at 3 months, 4 months, 5 months etc,

.......2} pregnant woman is  not a mother until the fetus/baby is born-out as lung inspiriting air baby/infant/child,

..........3} earth is over populated by humans for the operating systems ---sources of energy/power---  we have in place,

.............4} this overpopulation { 7.9 billion } is destructive ---via pollution---  to ecological environment that sustains all humans,

..........5} the above mentioned persons, have little to no compassion, or empathy for pregnant women the circumstances they find themselves in,

.......6}  the above mentioned persons focus more on the organism of the pregnant woman,  than they do  pregnant woman, and this is more evidence of their fundamentaist proclivities to act as the righteous priests of God on Earth,

...7}  ...all the truths I'm forgetting.



#127
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@Bones
The liberty of a mother does not trump a beings right to life. 
The liberties of pregnant woman rule over all organisms of her body, unless she gives consent to others to intervene.

This fetus/baby is not an organism of Bones, Republicans, Democrats, Supreme court etc.

Bones, please try to the find and use the ability rationale and common sense if you to make a comment of any sifnificance.
#128
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@DebateAllDaTings
Bodily autonomy is used as a justification for killing,
think of it in the same terms as "deportation"
#129
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@SkepticalOne
Your example just proved my point.

Bodily autonomy can be used to justify murder and rape, AND it can be used as a protection from it.

This is what makes Bodily Autonomy a vacuous and conflicting principle.

If I’m about to shoot a child and you swat my arm without my consent to touch me, you have violated my bodily autonomy as you touched my body without my permission. Also, who are you to tell me I can't pull the trigger, isn't my finger, can't I do what I want with my own finger on my own body?




#130
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@3RU7AL
let's simply codify MEDICAL PRIVACY
I think we probably should codify what medical privacy and all rights stand upon: self-ownership. Judging from this thread, self ownership is misunderstood and under attack. If it falls, so many other rights we take for granted will go with it. 
#131
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@DebateAllDaTings
Your example just proved my point.

Bodily autonomy can be used to justify murder and rape, AND it can be used as a protection from it.
No, my example shows rape and murder can't be argued against without the protections of self-ownership and bodily autonomy. Ownership of my body does not include ownership of your body. You completely misunderstand rights and how they work.

If I’m about to shoot a child and you swat my arm without my consent to touch me, you have violated my bodily autonomy [...]
Your bodily autonomy provides you no protection when you seek to harm another autonomous person. I would be justified in whatever course of action necessary to stop your intended attack. 
#132
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@SkepticalOne
all rights stand upon: self-ownership
even better
#133
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@SkepticalOne

“No, my example shows rape and murder can't be argued against without the protections of self-ownership and bodily autonomy. Ownership of my body does not include ownership of your body. You completely misunderstand rights and how they work.”
 
I know my examples seemed absurd at first glance, it was all because I was hoping you would make this very point.
 
"Your bodily autonomy provides you no protection when you seek to harm another autonomous person. I would be justified in whatever course of action necessary to stop your intended attack."

This is EXACTLY the point I wanted you to make.

As I said a few posts up, you should only be able to do what you want with your own body as long as you aren’t posing a significant risk to others, or causing them harm or death.

Abortion literally causes harm to the body of the unborn and kills the unborn, and thus pro-lifers are justified in stopping a women from killing her child in the same way you would be justified in stopping me from killing a child with a gun.

This is why bodily autonomy actually supports the pro-life position, as the bodily autonomy of the unborn is being violated during an abortion.



#134
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@DebateAllDaTings
If I’m about to shoot a child and you swat my arm without my consent to touch me, you have violated my bodily autonomy as you touched my body without my permission. Also, who are you to tell me I can't pull the trigger, isn't my finger, can't I do what I want with my own finger on my own body?
think of individual sovereignty in the same way you think of national sovereignty

you might not like that saudi arabia beheads people on charges of practicing witchcraft

but do you disagree strongly enough to invade their country and revamp their justice system ?

in your example, sure, there may be some legal penalty for assaulting someone who you believe may intend gross bodily harm to another

if you are willing to accept the consequences of your actions, then assault as you see fit
#135
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@DebateAllDaTings
This is why bodily autonomy actually supports the pro-life position, as the bodily autonomy of the unborn is being violated during an abortion.
all laws are based on jurisdiction

the united states cannot make laws for china

russia cannot make laws for ghana

if there is a human living inside the borders of a sovereign country

that human is subject to the laws and or whims of that PARTICULAR country's ruler

the same principle applies for the borders of a sovereign individual

what happens inside YOUR OWN BODY is your business and only your business

if there is a human living inside your borders and you wish to deport them

then you and only you have the right to deport them
#136
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@DebateAllDaTings
To assume because you have dominion over your own body means it's okay to rape and kill someone is f****** dumb. At no point does the right to have dominion over your body extend to someone else's body and you know it. 
#137
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@Polytheist-Witch
"At no point does the right to have dominion over your body extend to someone else's body and you know it."

Obviously I agree, as I have said many times in this thread.

The only point of those absurd examples I gave was to get the pro-choice people to admit the very point you did.

The mother having dominion over her body does not entail dominion over someone else's body (her unborn child's body in this example).

Thus, that clarification of bodily autonomy that you mentioned actually supports the pro-life position not the pro-choice position.



 


#138
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@3RU7AL
The problem is deporting people doesn't entail killing them like in abortion, so your example fails. People would look at deportation as mass murder if the only way to leave the country was to be murdered with instruments first.
#139
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@DebateAllDaTings
The  "baby" can't live outside the incubator. "Mom" is losing nutrients and her body is adapting to the parasite. Every right to remove it.
#140
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@ebuc

.......2} pregnant woman is  not a mother until the fetus/baby is born-out as lung inspiriting air baby/infant/child,
Exactly. When a first pregnancy ends in miscarriage you are not called a mother with a dead child. People pat you on the back and say sorry about your miscarriage, don't worry you'll be pregnant again soon.
#141
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@DebateAllDaTings
As I said a few posts up, you should only be able to do what you want with your own body as long as you aren’t posing a significant risk to others, or causing them harm or death.
Assuming the unborn were autonomous persons (which is not the case), you are overlooking the fact that comandeering the body of another is harmful (like rape) AND that pregancy itself can be harmful and forever changes a woman's body and life. So, by your own reasoning, the unborn doesn't get 'to do what it wants'. 
#142
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@Polytheist-Witch
The baby not being able to live outside the mother doesn't mean that it's ok to kill the baby; that is a non-sequitur and does not follow. 

Also the nutrients being lost are not that much. ..No mother has ever starved to death because the baby inside her took all her nutrients that's absurd. Women don't even need ANY additional calories in the first trimester. 

These justifications for killing the unborn child are incredibly weak.
#143
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@DebateAllDaTings
The problem is deporting people doesn't entail killing them like in abortion, so your example fails.
deporting people often forces them into dangerous situations (from which they were obviously fleeing in the first place) and can even lead to their death

but those deaths are of no concern to the deporting nation
#144
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@DebateAllDaTings
Also the nutrients being lost are not that much.
do you happen to be in support of providing free food and shelter and medical care to the homeless ?
#145
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@SkepticalOne
Why are they not autonomous persons merely because you claim them not to be? That's not convincing. Why are we autonomous person's and not them?

Also, did you know that abortion changes a woman's body and life as well? You are not talking about preventing a pregnancy, you are talking about sticking instruments in a woman who is already pregnant and killing her unborn child.  There's Hormonal changes, breast tissue, lactation and even changes at the cellular level because of abortion. 

Also, comandeering a body isn't the same during rape and you know it. With rape it is done with intent to harm, with the unborn child it's necessary to live and there is no ill will from the unborn or malicious intent.

Are you for the death penalty? You must be if you believe the unborn deserve to be killed for the penalty of simply existing in their natural place.
#146
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@DebateAllDaTings
The mother having dominion over her body does not entail dominion
it's the baby that "has dominion" over the mother's body in your preferred scenario

the baby is forcing the mother to feed and shelter it

imagine if someone spliced their veins into the plumbing of your house and then you were told that you were not legally allowed to evict (deport) the "guest" because "that would kill them"

meanwhile, the "guest" is remodeling your house in ways that you don't personally approve
#147
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@3RU7AL
If they would  get butchered and die in the streets if they weren't in a home (like the unborn would die outside the womb if they weren't in the womb) then yes. 

Also, part of my tax money is already being used in government programs to help feed and shelter the homeless.
#148
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@3RU7AL
So you believe your home being remodelled is justification for killing someone? I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
If you would kill someone with instruments and force their corpse to leave the property and take away their whole future, just because it's "your house" then that shows you care more about convenience and property than human life.

Human life is the most precious thing there is, so I suppose we just have different values.



#149
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If they would  get butchered and die in the streets if they weren't in a home (like the unborn would die outside the womb if they weren't in the womb) then yes. 
i'm not sure why it matters HOW they die (butchered or not butchered is still dead as dead) but good

let's focus on helping the homeless, and then after we solve that, then we can move on to invading the medical privacy of pregnant women
#150
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So you believe your home being remodelled is justification for killing someone? I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
the house in the metaphor

is your own body