Pronouns

Author: rbelivb

Posts

Total: 327
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Kritikal
"Willfully and repeatedly fail to use a resident’s preferred name or pronouns after being clearly informed of the preferred name or pronouns."
first of all, this type of law is ridiculous (and should be abolished)

second of all, does this law restrict your personal behavior ?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@RationalMadman
they encourage feminine males and masculine females to not deny their biology.
i thought "denying their biology" was the whole point

along with the right to call themselves whatever they want to call themselves

the right to "self-definition" and "self-ownership" and "medical privacy"
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@3RU7AL
But to be trans, you do not even need to undergo medical Procedure anymore.

In Denmark, you can say you are the other gender (even though there are meant to be more than 2) and legally change it.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@3RU7AL
I find it weird how you're strawmanning me with self-determination etc.

Let me remind what I and TERFs have in common as a counter-case (many of them mention this and support it):

It's one-way respect. Society mocks furries and wouldn't call a person who thrives and enjoys roleplaying as a dog or chimpanzee as being identified that way, nor would they ever allow a person to engage in a lot of plastic surgery and use face paint to transition race and ethnicity. They would never allow a 78 year old who wants to feel like a young woman or man to identify as that age in any official capacity... In constrast, we are the devil to hold people to the same standard with their gender (which was always meant to be 'sex' it was male vs female, you didn't list 'man' or 'woman' and still don't list that next to this slot called 'gender' on official forms).


Gender is simply related to people's identity in a fundamentally different way from any of those other facets.
No, that is logically fallacious in both ends of the double standard. 

We cannot simply compare across them and apply the same rules.
We can.

For example, ethnicity is inherently tied to both heritage (family lineage) and biology
Actually, that is a biological-normative social construct. Research the actual definition of ethnicity and contrast it to race, we as a society do to ethnicity what conservatives do to gender.

, as well as one's entire cultural surrounding,
Eminem grew up with predominantly african american cultural surroundings. Is he that ethnicity under your understanding?

while species and age have important ethical connections to one's level of agency.
Not the one you like other people to call you, just the one you really are, like a male person roleplaying as a woman 24/7 and vice versa telling us to respect that roleplay as if it were real.

Gender, on the other hand is linked to one's self-expression,
Furries blatantly want to self express their fantasy to be a species they are not. Same with the age thing.

to their sexual life,
There are kinks linked to furry and/or age regressive play. There are all sorts of parallels here actually.

and the interplay between the genders is a dynamic which is internal to the particular culture - it is a category which you can't simply compare to any others which apply cross-culturally to an extent. The difference is in being different - they aren't the same thing.
Are males the same as females? I am curious where you draw this difference focus from if you are saying we should ignore differences when people get offended.

Kritikal
Kritikal's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 76
0
1
7
Kritikal's avatar
Kritikal
0
1
7
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
Sure they might 'like to have a new uterus', but in reality almolst no one would actually go through with the transplant because of the other factors. It would be far easier to just adopt a child rather than risking your life.
Kritikal
Kritikal's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 76
0
1
7
Kritikal's avatar
Kritikal
0
1
7
-->
@3RU7AL
Ideally everyone can agree on basic reality.

ideally everyone can agree on epistemological limits
I think that asking people to agree on epistemological limits is quite different than basic reality. We can all observe the same reality, but epistemology is a complex field that will always spark debate. While epistemological limits raise skepticism in some areas related to reality, there is no epistemological limit that prevents us observing basic reality itself.

"Willfully and repeatedly fail to use a resident’s preferred name or pronouns after being clearly informed of the preferred name or pronouns."
I agree that it should be abolished, and while this law does not restrict my personal behavior as I am not responsible for any residents, it does restrict the free speech of many Americans.
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@3RU7AL
I'll say what I said before, and that is oughtn't it be the priority of society to first  what is most accurate and then act in accordance with it? 
It is important to maintain a constant awareness of and vigilant respect of our epistemological limits.

some things are PROVABLY TRUE

some things are PROVABLY FALSE

these two categories cover less than 1% of human knowledge
I don't get what the point is. Do you think it is an epistemic limit to differentiate between men and women? 
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Kritikal
Sure they might 'like to have a new uterus', but in reality almolst no one would actually go through with the transplant because of the other factors. It would be far easier to just adopt a child rather than risking your life.
You honestly have no idea most people adopt after going through every aspect that they can go through to try to bear their own children.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Kritikal
I think that asking people to agree on epistemological limits is quite different than basic reality.
epistemological limits ARE "basic reality"

you don't know what i look like naked

there is a limit to your knowledge

you can call the cops on the 60 year old female with a mustache who enters the women's restroom

what is the cop supposed to do ?

strip-search the poor lady ?

to deny that your perception might be inaccurate is the most basic mistake

epistemological limits are NOT COMPLICATED
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Bones
I don't get what the point is. Do you think it is an epistemic limit to differentiate between men and women? 
yes.

there very obviously is.

you don't know what someone looks like naked.

you suffer from sample bias.
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@3RU7AL
you don't know what someone looks like naked.
I don't need to look at genitals to distinguish between men and women - they have very different facial constructions e.g   
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,078
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Bones
True.

A Trans simulation might compare with an onboard blue print of femininity or masculinity, but is never quite the same.

I had a recent non-interactive encounter with a very attractive persona, but it just didn't tally with my onboard  recognition systems.

Though maybe systems will evolve relative to social normalization.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Bones
I don't need to look at genitals to distinguish between men and women - they have very different facial constructions e.g   
do you even know what sample bias is ?
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@3RU7AL
Yes but you cannot contend that 99.9 percent of people can identify with 99.9 percent accuracy the populations sex without genitals.  
Kritikal
Kritikal's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 76
0
1
7
Kritikal's avatar
Kritikal
0
1
7
-->
@3RU7AL
Asking people to agree on epistemological limits is hard because that is asking everyone to agree on the limits of knowledge. Many philosophers will say that the limit is I think therefore I am, and that there is nothing else that is truly knowable. Many others have other ideas of the limit of knowledge itself. When you ask people to agree on basic reality you are essentially saying that we should agree on what we can all observe, ignoring the theoretical epistemological limits. 

And no, I don't see why we can't keep men out of the woman's bathroom and vice versa, we have done it for as long as we have had bathrooms. 
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Bones
Yes but you cannot contend that 99.9 percent of people can identify with 99.9 percent accuracy the populations sex without genitals.  
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Kritikal
When you ask people to agree on basic reality
you're asking everyone to agree to the same ontology

which would obliterate all religions
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Kritikal
And no, I don't see why we can't keep men out of the woman's bathroom and vice versa, we have done it for as long as we have had bathrooms. 
this claim is demonstrably false

Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
FREEDOM to talk about walking-out

does NOT violate any "freemarketprinciples"
I didn't suggest this. I'm suggesting in response to this:

the exception to this "rule of whim" would be labor union negotiations
that unions have neither historically, nor currently practiced free association. And your statement is an allusion to this.



3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Athias
that unions have neither historically, nor currently practiced free association. And your statement is an allusion to this.
apparently we need to figure out what specifically you mean by "free association"

because i thought you meant it as "freedom to fire anyone at any time and for any (non)reason"
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
apparently we need to figure out what specifically you mean by "free association"

because i thought you meant it as "freedom to fire anyone at any time and for any (non)reason"
In the context of this discussion, yes. And you responded that this was exempted by "labor union negotiations." What did you mean by this?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Athias
In the context of this discussion, yes. And you responded that this was exempted by "labor union negotiations." What did you mean by this?
iff a labor union negotiates to support its individual members (with a credible threat of a walk-out), specifically to protect individual members from being fired "without cause"

then the labor union members' "right to free association" interferes with the business owner's ability to "fire employees on a whim" ("right to free association")
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
iff a labor union negotiates to support its individual members (with a credible threat of a walk-out), specifically to protect individual members from being fired "without cause"

then the labor union members' "right to free association" interferes with the business owner's ability to "fire employees on a whim" ("right to free association")
Walking-out is a response, not an interference. The employer can still incur the costs of hiring replacements.
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Athias
Walking-out is a response, not an interference. The employer can still incur the costs of hiring replacements.
the cost of hiring replacements is unlikely to be unconsidered (aka "on a whim")
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
the cost of hiring replacements is unlikely to be unconsidered (aka "on a whim")
Perhaps not. But I was not the one who characterized their prerogative to fire, which I assume you presumed meant under any circumstances or reason, as a "rule of whim." Needless to say, incentives and disincentives influence decisions. Regardless of how this incentivizes or disincentivizes the party concerned, the prerogative still remains with them. So, for example, just as I would not object to an employer firing an employee for posting pictures of themselves using a competitor's product, I would not object to an employee quitting because their employer wears blue dress shirts at home.

So if we were to once again analyze your reference:

some corporations will fire you for posting pictures of yourself using a competitor's product

this is not a joke
Would an employer's firing an employee for posting pictures of themselves using a competitors product undermine, contradict, rebut, or refute my statement, here:

One only has "free speech" on one's own property.
No, not in the least. No more than it would for example if a girlfriend breaks up with a boyfriend after finding pictures of him locking lips with another girl on his couch in his apartment. The dissolution of an association, even unilateral and particularly absent of duress, doesn't qualify the prerogative of which I spoke. That is not to say, decisions albeit expressed through one's prerogative cannot be influenced by incentive.
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@3RU7AL
What's your point? Obviously if you get surgery you can make yourself look like whatever you want. Look! Here's a real life Na'vi. I am saying that, on balance, in almost every single case, men carry the characteristics of men and women carry the characteristics of women, and that these are intrinsic in a person and unchangeable. 
Conservallectual
Conservallectual's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 70
0
2
7
Conservallectual's avatar
Conservallectual
0
2
7
Pronouns and gender ideology are the invention of a crazed madman named John Money. Gender cannot be truly changed. transitions are only superficial and do not modify chromosomes 
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Athias
The dissolution of an association, even unilateral and particularly absent of duress, doesn't qualify the prerogative of which I spoke.
we do not appear to be in disagreement on these points

(IFF) you believe it is UNFAIR for an employer to fire someone for NON-WORK-RELATED activities (THEN) either join or form a labor union
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Bones
I am saying that, on balance, in almost every single case, men carry the characteristics of men and women carry the characteristics of women,
and i'm saying that you don't know how often you're wrong

because of sample-bias

many older (and or taller and or overweight and or muscular) women (who are born as women and also identify as women) can be routinely mistaken for men and face repeated harassment in public restrooms

HOW ARE THE COPS GOING TO KNOW WHAT GENDER SOMEONE IS WITHOUT A STRIP SEARCH AND A MICROSCOPE ??

when you propose a law, that law must be enforceable without violating the rights of innocent citizens
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Athias
"freedom of speech" does not mean "freedom from social consequences"