Restrictions on Abortion

Author: thett3

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#91
bmdrocks21
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@Greyparrot
Typical response from the lazy "trust authority" crowd that can't be bothered to take individual responsibility for society and passes that off to "the experts"
I don’t even think it is a “trust authority” comment really. It just seems like a random feel good way to justify something when they would never use that argument for any other policy.

It is a libertarian and accidentally anti-democratic argument, which is a funny combo
#92
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@SkepticalOne
 If I somehow cause another person to need a kidney (and mine is compatible) no one would dare suggest I be forced to hand mine over (not even after 6 months), but this is exactly what some expect pregnant women to do.
You should have to- I will die on this hill.

If you caused a car crash because you were drunk driving and ruptured someone’s kidneys because of your negligence, I think you should have to give over a kidney to save their life if you are a compatible donor.

I recognize that any application of this principle other than on pregnancy would likely be impractical (proving fault/intent, likelihood of being a compatible donor, little time available until surgery), but if possible, I think that aggressors who injure innocent people should be forced to save their life regarding your kidney example.
#93
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@bmdrocks21
Sometimes doctors don't know what's the best policy for society. Remember the Tuskegee experiments? All expert doctors.

And don't get me started on all the "Covid experts"
#94
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@Greyparrot
Taking individual responsibility for society.

Is what is known as Dictating.
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#95
thett3
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@SkepticalOne
I have an issue with one person being forced to provide their organs, tissue, blood for the benefit of another. If I somehow cause another person to need a kidney (and mine is compatible) no one would dare suggest I be forced to hand mine over (not even after 6 months), but this is exactly what some expect pregnant women to do. We should be consistent. Either bodily autonomy applies equally to everyone or it doesn't exist. I refuse to accept the latter.
Uhh if you stab someone in the kidneys and ruin them and it turns out one of yours is compatible I would support taking one away from you actually. I think almost everyone would if you asked them. 

Moreover a woman has an obligation to her child in a way we don’t for strangers. I understand how someone could support abortion up to the point of viability even though I don’t really but after that it’s completely monstrous. It boggles my mind that you think that a viable fetus is a living human being that carries moral weight but the woman’s right to choose is more important. But since you aren’t an ancap you obviously have other values so I’m curious why bodily autonomy is so paramount in this case and no other. Five months into a pregnancy that right to choose has been exercised, and she chose to keep it. What you’re arguing for is the right to change your mind until literally the last moment 
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#96
thett3
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@Earth
Are there actually anyone important advocating for abortion up to the point of birth?
Seven states have “no restrictions” on abortion, and Biden’s press secretary refused to say if he supported any restrictions at all on abortion. Elective third trimester abortions are super rare but they do happen. The only reason it’s become an issue in this thread is because so many people refuse to admit that even that is immoral

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#97
thett3
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@SkepticalOne
No, but it is much easier to argue in stark black and white moral terms. Nuance is hard.
Thats not all what happened and you should know that. The thread is asking people where they draw the line so it’s unsurprising that the majority of the discussion would occur around fringe cases. 
#98
3RU7AL
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@n8nrgim
almost none of the people who are for complete legality of abortion is willing to entertain answering the question of what happens when a woman abuses the privilege, and gets a late late term elective abortion for a stupid and immoral reason. i think it shows how weak their position is. 
the answer is, SHE IS ACCOUNTABLE TO HER GOD OF CHOICE

whatever happens inside her own body is none of your business

self-ownership is absolute
#99
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@thett3
because so many people refuse to admit that even that is immoral
there are tons of things that are considered "immoral" but are not technically "crimes"

i understood this discussion to be about whether or not we should or should not impose LEGAL restrictions upon what happens inside a woman's own body

for example

infidelity is immoral

would you personally support a federal law making infidelity a crime ?
#100
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@thett3
It boggles my mind that you think that a viable fetus is a living human being that carries moral weight but the woman’s right to choose is more important.
It boggles my mind that many think that a viable fetus is a living human being that carries moral weight but gleefully ignore the plight of immigrants and homeless people and children being slaughtered in warzones.

the overwhelming majority of abortions are a consequence of economic instability

if people "really really cared" so much about "the baby" then you'd think they'd spend their "holy fervor" on ACTUALLY HELPING SINGLE MOTHERS

instead of focusing on filling up our already overcrowded prisons
#101
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@SkepticalOne
No, but it is much easier to argue in stark black and white moral terms. Nuance is hard.
LOGICAL COHERENCE

IS EASIER FOR SOME THAN FOR OTHERS
#102
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@n8nrgim
if someone intentionally or recklessly causes another person to need an organ, i would say it would be fair to expect the culprit to fork over the organ.
an eye for an eye

a tooth for a tooth
#103
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@n8nrgim
but at least i'm being consistent given i expect women after a couple trimesters to have a moral obligation to the baby. 
just because you let someone live in your house for 4 months doesn't mean you must therefore let them stay as long as they wish

even if it's freezing cold outside

think of it as a deportation

or an eviction
#104
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@Earth
Are there actually anyone important advocating for abortion up to the point of birth?
who do you personally consider "important" ?
#105
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@SkepticalOne
I have an issue with one person being forced to provide their organs, tissue, blood for the benefit of another.
even the police are NOT legally obligated to assist
#106
3RU7AL
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@bmdrocks21
If you caused a car crash because you were drunk driving and ruptured someone’s kidneys because of your negligence, I think you should have to give over a kidney to save their life if you are a compatible donor.
imagine the example, where you didn't cause the kidney failure

you simply have two compatible kidneys

you are not expected to save every single life on earth, even if you have the ability to save some
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#107
thett3
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@3RU7AL
It boggles my mind that many think that a viable fetus is a living human being that carries moral weight but gleefully ignore the plight of immigrants and homeless people and children being slaughtered in warzones.

the overwhelming majority of abortions are a consequence of economic instability

if people "really really cared" so much about "the baby" then you'd think they'd spend their "holy fervor" on ACTUALLY HELPING SINGLE MOTHERS

instead of focusing on filling up our already overcrowded prisons
I do support a social safety net for people in need and I'm willing to pay for it with my tax dollars, I don't know what more you could ask of me politically 
#108
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@bmdrocks21
I suggest we leave this in the hands of gun owners and FFL dealers
this is actually a great idea

everyone seems to have lost focus on what the scope of government entails

the primary use case for government is to provide basic public services, roads, water service, electricity and more broadly, public safety in the public sphere

the secondary use case for government is to mediate disputes between citizens

if you have personally been harmed in some quantifiable way by another citizen, then you have the right (not the obligation) to file legal action against that specific citizen
#109
3RU7AL
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@thett3
I do support a social safety net for people in need and I'm willing to pay for it with my tax dollars, I don't know what more you could ask of me politically 
i am very glad we can agree on this rather important point

perhaps we might also agree that enacting laws that restrict access to abortion are counterproductive and lead many to commit miscarriages by alcoholism and many other much more dangerous actions

#110
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@thett3
Personally I think to 4 months in as absolute deadline is the correct judgement call. 

Id accept 3.5 month deadline as valid.
#111
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@RationalMadman
Personally I think to 4 months in as absolute deadline is the correct judgement call. 

Id accept 3.5 month deadline as valid.
i personally know more than one woman who didn't even know they were pregnant until 3 months in

often women can still have some menstruation, even during pregnancy

many people think it's very cut and dried, pregnant or not pregnant, but it's a bit fuzzy, especially in the first three months

30 days to figure out what you're going to be doing for the next 18 years seems a bit short

14 days to figure out what you're going to be doing for the next 18 years seems ridiculous
#112
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@3RU7AL
Yep I support making them go through with it past 3ish months in the whole thing. I feel no shame saying that and am absolutely certain I would say this as a woman.

The 3.5 thing was to realise we cant really know when it began in those cases, estimate by fetal development and period cycles (if she is honest)
#113
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@thett3
we restrict what people are allowed to do with their bodies all the time.
by "all the time" what exactly do you mean ?

i'm pretty sure only i can decide what i pierce and tattoo and consume and inject
#114
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@RationalMadman
and period cycles
women are not clocks
#115
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@3RU7AL
Clocks measure time, maybe you meant machines and body-wise both genders and sexes are biological machines.
#116
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@RationalMadman
Clocks measure time, maybe you meant machines and body-wise both genders and sexes are biological machines.
embryo development is not uniform

not every woman has perfectly predictable cycles (like a clock)
#117
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@3RU7AL
You cannot have periods while pregnant. You can have pause in periods and not be pregnant though.

I am kind if bored of your psudointellectual posts. Like the stuff you are saying here has nothing at all to do with abortion, you are just trying to seem clever with some bullshit sidetrack to abstract theories like you always do.
#118
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@RationalMadman
You cannot have periods while pregnant.
this claim is provably false
#119
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@RationalMadman
I am kind of enthralled with your psudointellectual posts.
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#120
thett3
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@3RU7AL
this claim is provably false
No it’s not lol. A woman cannot get her period when she’s pregnant. There can be occasional bleeding that could be mistaken for a period but no, periods 100% do not occur during pregnancy