Most people don’t want to ban abortion entirely but also don’t think it should be legal up to the moment of birth. What do you think the limit should be and why?
Restrictions on Abortion
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Most people don’t want to ban abortion entirely but also don’t think it should be legal up to the moment of birth.
In fact, most people think abortion should be legal. Fewer than 1 in 5 Americans want to ban abortion entirely, 1 in 20 worldwide.
What do you think the limit should be and why?
I think governments should trust the wisdom and experience of doctors and mothers and stay out of it to the maximum extent possible. I have zero expertise in the matter and so my opinion is worse than unwanted but also probably oversimple and wrongheaded. I suggest we leave the entire question in the hands of obstetricians and their patients.
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@oromagi
I have zero expertise in the matter and so my opinion is worse than unwanted but also probably oversimple and wrongheaded. I suggest we leave the entire question in the hands of obstetricians and their patients.
What you’re saying is that you don’t think there should be any legal limit on abortion. Do you really not feel comfortable to render moral judgement even in an extreme case? A woman who is 36 weeks pregnant wants to abort a perfectly healthy fetus just because she doesn’t want it anymore, you’re good with that as long as she can find a doctor willing to do it?
I'd say a fetus should be able to be aborted up to first breath. That is when God breathes a soul into it.
Do you remember anything when you were in the womb?
Do you really not feel comfortable to render moral judgement even in an extreme case?
Feelings make bad law. An obstetrician would not perform such a dangerous procedure unless the health of the mother was at risk and only an obstetrician could make such a determination. Government insertion in that determination is bound to be less well informed of the facts on the ground and is unwanted by almost all doctors and mothers when a decision must be made.
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@oromagi
Feelings make bad law. An obstetrician would not perform such a dangerous procedure unless the health of the mother was at risk and only an obstetrician could make such a determination. Government insertion in that determination is bound to be less well informed of the facts on the ground and is unwanted by almost all doctors and mothers when a decision must be made.
Morality is the foundation of law, so the morality of an action is relevant on what the law should be. You say your opinion is “unwanted” and yet you post on a thread unsolicited about the subject. So you clearly have a position, and your position is that there should be no legal limit on abortion until the moment of birth. Elective third trimester abortions are legal and are performed in several states so saying no doctor would ever perform one for that reason is untrue, around 10% of people support abortion until the moment of birth for any reason and no doubt some of those people would be doctors. Why not just come out and say what your position actually is? If you truly don’t have a position, than don’t respond to a thread asking you your position.
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@FLRW
I'd say a fetus should be able to be aborted up to first breath. That is when God breathes a soul into it.Do you remember anything when you were in the womb?
I can’t remember anything before my third birthday either. Unless you think parents should be able to kill toddlers the ability to form long term memories isn’t a good threshold. Is your position that elective abortions should be permitted until the moment of birth? If not, what is your position?
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@thett3
Yes, it is my position that elective abortions should be permitted until the moment of birth.
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@FLRW
Yes, it is my position that elective abortions should be permitted until the moment of birth.
In your view what distinguishes birth from any other developmental threshold such as conception, heartbeat, viability, ability to form long term memory, etc?
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@thett3
Morality is the foundation of law, so the morality of an action is relevant on what the law should be.
the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection.
-John Stuart Mill
You say your opinion is “unwanted” and yet you post on a thread unsolicited about the subject.
Obviously, for folks who read in context, unwanted by mothers and doctors not unwanted by you. You solicited my opinion when you said, "What do you think the limit should be and why?"
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@thett3
God gives you a soul?
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@oromagi
Obviously, for folks who read in context, unwanted by mothers and doctors not unwanted by you. You solicited my opinion when you said, "What do you think the limit should be and why?"
You’re now three posts in and you still haven’t made your position clear. I asked you about your thoughts on a specific example (an elective abortion of a healthy fetus two or three weeks before birth) and all you said is that such a thing would never happen, which isn’t true and isn’t relevant to whether you think it should be legal or not. Doctors like this exist (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Gosnell) and someone in this very thread said they believe in abortion up to the moment of birth. Do you?
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@FLRW
God gives you a soul?
If you’re not going to engage in a discussion go troll somewhere else
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@thett3
Most people don’t want to ban abortion entirely but also don’t think it should be legal up to the moment of birth. What do you think the limit should be and why?
who has legal standing to bring a case against a doctor ?
in other words
how exactly are you personally harmed by my choice of whether or not to gestate an infant ?
and
we shouldn't have laws that interfere with a doctor's choice of medical procedure
also
at what point does a prospective mother stop owning her own body ?
I think the most reasonable way I can answer it to say that abortion should be illegal from conception, prime facie.
Ideally we would have an extensive adoption organization, but I'm okay with something like ~12 weeks to get an abortion.
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@oromagi
Morality is the foundation of law, so the morality of an action is relevant on what the law should be.the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection.-John Stuart Mill
You quote it, but I doubt you or anyone else here believes it.
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@Novice
Are you absolutely moral regarding the preservation of life....... Or selectively moral relative to social conditioning?
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Morality is the foundation of law, so the morality of an action is relevant on what the law should be.
The actual foundation of law is the ability to enact it. There’s a reason law and order go hand in hand.
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@thett3
Most people don’t want to ban abortion entirely but also don’t think it should be legal up to the moment of birth. What do you think the limit should be and why?
Roe provides a good standard. As for abortion 'up to the moment of birth' - it should be legal. Abortions late in the pregnancy are rare and done, not for convenience or whim, because of extraordinary circumstances.
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@Novice
I think the most reasonable way I can answer it to say that abortion should be illegal from conception, prime facie.
good
how many murder investigations are you going to initiate for miscarriages ?
and how are you going to force people to register every time they conceive / copulate ?
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@Reece101
The actual foundation of law is the ability to enact it. There’s a reason law and order go hand in hand.
the ability to enforce ?
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@ADreamOfLiberty
the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection.-John Stuart MillYou quote it, but I doubt you or anyone else here believes it.
wow
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@3RU7AL
the ability to enforce ?
Yes, including for it to be on solid legal ground.
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@SkepticalOne
Roe provides a good standard. As for abortion 'up to the moment of birth' - it should be legal. Abortions late in the pregnancy are rare and done, not for convenience or whim, because of extraordinary circumstances.
But if someone did do it just as a whim, you’re good with that? A 39 week old fetus is of no value to you?
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@Earth
Ideally we would have an extensive adoption organization, but I'm okay with something like ~12 weeks to get an abortion.
This is the standard position most Americans hold. If congress had codified this back in the 70s through the legislative process instead of the Supreme Court imposing an extreme standard based on a totally ridiculous reading of the law I don’t think abortion would be a serious issue today. People supporting abortion up to the moment of birth is absolutely insane to me. I consider that to just be straight up murder/infanticide
Also as far as adoption goes we actually do have that in the United States. Most babies get adopted quickly or even before they are born, the situation for children who are given up when older is a lot rougher
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@Reece101
on solid legal ground
please explain
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@thett3
the situation for children who are given up when older is a lot rougher
yep
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@thett3
But if someone did do it just as a whim,
do you even have a single example of this ?
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@3RU7AL
do you even have a single example of this ?
It's a hypothetical question. If someone has no moral issue with it, whether it's common or not shouldn't matter. But yes, elective late term abortions do happen in places where they are legal, I'm surprised that this is controversial. They are a small minority of the total, but I'm trying to see where people stand. The denial that it happens at all is pretty telling
Here's what that looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HslaMej6TlA How is doing that to viable fetuses preferable to telling the mother no, you can't do this at this point