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@Greyparrot
Increase taxes on corporations. Well, except Disney
Freedom of Speech
Posts
Total:
251
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@SkepticalOne
You equate being rich to expression and taxation as retaliation for this 'speech'.
Every rich person purchases lobbyists.
Disney is a media corporation. They can get whatever message out they want to. The fact that they have lost a special privilege of paying less tax does not affect that. They even have their own network that they can get that special message out on. Anyone that thinks Disney is being curtailed as far as free speech because they are now paying the same taxes as another business is kidding themselves. Not to mention every employee at Disney should be or probably is a citizen of Florida an individually they still have free speech and the ability to vote. And unlike the individuals that are employed by Disney Disney can afford to still pay for lobbyists.
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@Polytheist-Witch
100% agree.
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@Polytheist-Witch
You are correct on all points— Disney’s speech isn’t being effectively curtailed. DeSantis is, however, sending a message: “You make things difficult for me, Ima gonna make things difficult for you.” And the way that message is being sent to Disney is most likely unconstitutional…
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@cristo71
I don’t mean *only* Disney here but Democrats who seek to use the levers of government to check and penalize speech. DeSantis appears to be demonstrating that he is willing and able to play these political tricks as well if that is how they want to play…
So, "they do it, so I should do it, too?" Where's his principle? (This is rhetorical; politicians scarcely exhibit maintaining principles--moral ones anyway.)
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@ILikePie5
The point here is hypocrisy. Rules for thee but not for me. When Democrats tell everyone to not buy Goya products because they support Trump, all is well. But when DeSantis calls out Disney for their shenanigans, there’s an uproar
So conservative legislators should penalize Disney for its political dissent to send a message to the Democrats? That's your justification?
If a Democratic legislature penalized a company for expressing conservative political opinion, and issued a penalty for it (and I'm sure this has happened,) would you not condemn them? Isn't it the principle that matters rather than who sports the Donkey and who sports the Elephant?
Why are you guys compelling arguments on my behalf which defend Disney?
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@Polytheist-Witch
Disney is a media corporation. They can get whatever message out they want to. The fact that they have lost a special privilege of paying less tax does not affect that.
Not being taxed is not a "special privilege." And Disney Parks are one the largest tourist attractions in the world, and not only have they brought hundreds of thousands of jobs to central Florida, but just the tax revenue in sales tax alone, would more than make up for any payments Disney was "privileged" to not owe.
They even have their own network that they can get that special message out on.
Except this has little to do with what they wanted to push on television. This is because Disney threatened to withdraw political and financial support.
Anyone that thinks Disney is being curtailed as far as free speech because they are now paying the same taxes as another business is kidding themselves.
What would you call imposing penalty for expressing political dissent?
Not to mention every employee at Disney should be or probably is a citizen of Florida an individually they still have free speech and the ability to vote.
No one has argued that Disney's free speech or that of any of its employees has been "removed." Only "curtailed" and "attacked."
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@Greyparrot
You equate being rich to expression and taxation as retaliation for this 'speech'.Every rich person purchases lobbyists.
No, every rich person doesn't purchase lobbyists, and the ones that do can be of any political affiliation. Are Democrats 'retaliating' against rich Democrats?!
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@SkepticalOne
Are Democrats 'retaliating' against rich Democrats?!
See post 82
We had a huge legal battle over this 4 years ago and it went absolutely nowhere. It's not unconstitutional.
Disney has made every effort to keep people inside the park. Hotel, food, attractions, busing all done within the park as long as you never leave. They have gone out of their way to make sure that the money people visiting the park or spending stay in the park. Disney has sued daycare centers for showing Disney movies and not paying them for them, even though the daycare is purchased the DVDs. Disney is one of the greediest companies on the planet. I was shocked to find out they were given the type of discounts they have been given in Florida. They want to play politics then they have to deal with the aftermath. There's absolutely no reason for Disney to interfere with anything involving education in Florida as an entity. Individuals have every right to talk about their local school system. The bullies got bullied this time.
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@cristo71
That the OP attempts to frame the whole 1A violation controversy as unique to DeSantis’ actions should be an insult to everyone’s intelligence in this forum. IMO, DeSantis is just demonstrating that two can play this game…
When you caricature someone else’s motivations, the resulting picture is often pretty damming.
I never said nor implied that this abuse of power was unique to Ron Desantis. In fact I’ve said nothing about any other scenario.
I started this thread out of the fascination of two things:
A) That in addition to being so blatantly wrong and unconstitutional, what he’s doing also goes against the core principals the political right has been professing to champion for at least the past two years
B) It’s the political right that is defending this
These two things are an obvious conflict so I turn to the place which, sadly, offers the best and most intelligent rationalization of the political right I can find anywhere. But this is the best I can find; deflections (but Disney shouldn’t have these privileges), whataboutisms (but the democrats), and just playing stupid (any law that affects someone is retaliation).
If anyone here has a better defense I’m all ears.
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@Double_R
Your creative reimagination of what I said is not, and will never be, consistent with, implied by or otherwise acquiesced based on, what I said.
Clearly you think what I said is hypocritical. Instead of trying to put words in my mouth, which isn't working out as you'd hoped, why not just try to make your argument? Why not just make your case, instead of undertaking this bad faith nonsense?
Is making the argument too hard? Are you incapable? Is the only way you can "win" by acting dishonestly?
Come on, man.
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@Athias
If DeSantis had no principles, he wouldn’t be fighting for what he and his constituents believe in.
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@ILikePie5
The amount of mental gymnastics you’re going through to paint me as an anti-constitutionalist is astonishing. My two beliefs are and can be mutually exclusive.Do I agree with abortion? No. Is abortion constitutional at the moment? Yes.
No where in our conversation was the question posed about Ron Desantis beliefs regarding what Disney said. We were talking about what he did. That’s not mental gymnastics, it’s context.
And no I never tried to paint you as an unconstitutionalist, I merely pointed out a contradiction in your professed principals and what you were saying here in this thread. The point is to make you position here. The only one of us painting the other is you trying to make it sound like I’m attacking you by pointing out the error in your statement.
The point here is hypocrisy. Rules for thee but not for me. When Democrats tell everyone to not buy Goya products because they support Trump, all is well. But when DeSantis calls out Disney for their shenanigans, there’s an uproar.
First of all, who is “democrats”? Because the conversion is not about Twitter warriors typing in all caps and spreading memes, we’re talking about government.
When democrats who wield actual government power pass a tax on Goya products for supporting Trump, then you can compare the situation to what Florida just did.
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@Athias
So conservative legislators should penalize Disney for its political dissent to send a message to the Democrats? That's your justification?
I’m a believer in fighting fire with fire if nothing else works. It’s why I support enhanced interrogation, but I digress.
If a Democratic legislature penalized a company for expressing conservative political opinion, and issued a penalty for it (and I'm sure this has happened,) would you not condemn them? Isn't it the principle that mattersrather than who sports the Donkey and who sports the Elephant?
I would condemn them. But if nothing is done about, which let’s be honest, hasn’t, Democrats should have no concern about it happening with them. I understand taking the higher road, but there’s a limit to that in my view.
Why are you guys compelling arguments on my behalf which defend Disney?
I’ve already said that I think it’s probably unconstitutional, but I understand where people are coming from. Liberal are using scorched earth tactics with their social/cultural issues, while conservatives just dilly dally on the higher road. Where do you think this men in women’s sports ends up in a decade? As a norm. It’s already happened with gay marriage and abortion. History tends to repeat itself; you just have to recognize it.
It’s a simple question: how far does it have to go for you to say enough is enough?
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@Polytheist-Witch
Disney has made every effort to keep people inside the park. Hotel, food, attractions, busing all done within the park as long as you never leave. They have gone out of their way to make sure that the money people visiting the park or spending stay in the park.
They cannot keep "sales tax" inside the park. They cannot keep corporate income tax, or payroll tax inside their parks.
Disney has sued daycare centers for showing Disney movies and not paying them for them, even though the daycare is purchased the DVDs.
Not surprising.
Disney is one of the greediest companies on the planet.
Oh, they're more than just greedy. Hint: why do you think children (and adults) are mysteriously disappearing in their parks and cruises without a trace?
I was shocked to find out they were given the type of discounts they have been given in Florida.
Tax exemption is not a discount.
They want to play politics then they have to deal with the aftermath.
They've been playing politics for years. It's only when they threatened to withdraw political support, that these "discounts" were lifted.
There's absolutely no reason for Disney to interfere with anything involving education in Florida as an entity.
I agree. And that's the reason they remained silent until pressured by members of their staff and the "LGBTQ" community. But Disney did not "interfere." Disney only threatened to withdraw its political and financial support--which is in their capacity. Penalizing a company for expression of political dissent--even by means of withdrawing funds--is not, or ought not to be, in the capacity of a member of government.
Individuals have every right to talk about their local school system.
#homeschoolyourchildren
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@cristo71
If DeSantis had no principles, he wouldn’t be fighting for what he and his constituents believe in.
His constituents include the staff at Disney, and everyone else over whom he presumably presides. Is he standing on principle, or is he attempting to replenish the loss of funds that would have resulted from Disney's withdrawing its financial support?
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@coal
Your creative reimagination of what I said is not, and will never be, consistent with, implied by or otherwise acquiesced based on, what I said.
Ok, let’s go back and take a look…
What Ron DeSantis is doing is exactly what he should be doing. One power center is checking another.So to be clear, you are ok with government punishing corporations because their executives exercised their right to free speech?
So Ron Desantis according to you is doing what he is supposed to be doing.
What he actually did was target Disney corporation with a punitive law in direct response to Disney criticizing the new Florida law.
Whether you believe they should, currently, Corporations in America have freedom of speech.
Criticizing a law passed by the government is a basic expression of freedom of speech. In fact, it might be the most basic example of freedom of speech there is.
Therefore, a Government punishing a corporation for exercising their right to free speech is, according to you, what Ron Desantis should be doing.
Sounds like my characterization of your position as stated is perfectly fair and accurate.
So how about this, instead of going on a tirade about my alleged dishonesty, tell me where I am getting yourr position wrong?
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@Double_R
And no I never tried to paint you as an unconstitutionalist, I merely pointed out a contradiction in your professed principals and what you were saying here in this thread. The point is to make you position here. The only one of us painting the other is you trying to make it sound like I’m attacking you by pointing out the error in your statement.
You’re heavily implying that I don’t believe in the sanctity of the constitution, which is wrong.
First of all, who is “democrats”? Because the conversion is not about Twitter warriors typing in all caps and spreading memes, we’re talking about government.When democrats who wield actual government power pass a tax on Goya products for supporting Trump, then you can compare the situation to what Florida just did.
Easy. Democratic legislators used their power to ban Chick Fil A from operating in airports because of their “anti-LGBT” beliefs. Sounds like targeting to me.
Just on a side note, it’s horrible policy for firms to engage in politics.
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@ILikePie5
I’m a believer in fighting fire with fire if nothing else works. It’s why I support enhanced interrogation, but I digress.
You fight fire with liquid water; pressurized nitrogen or carbon dioxide; potassium bicarbonate; bromochlorodifluoromethane, etc. These are the metaphorical equivalents of iron clad principle.
I would condemn them. But if nothing is done about, which let’s be honest, hasn’t, Democrats should have no concern about it happening with them.
And Disney is responsible for all the times Democrats would wager their tax wars against conservative-leaning companies?
I understand taking the higher road, but there’s a limit to that in my view.
Then, you were never on the road to begin with. (Forgive the error in my grammar.)
I’ve already said that I think it’s probably unconstitutional, but I understand where people are coming from. Liberal are using scorched earth tactics with their social/cultural issues, while conservatives just dilly dally on the higher road. Where do you think this men in women’s sports ends up in a decade? As a norm. It’s already happened with gay marriage and abortion. History tends to repeat itself; you just have to recognize it.It’s a simple question: how far does it have to go for you to say enough is enough?
This is what happens when private matters are subject to public referendum. That's one of the core problems with government--they undermine privacy.
The only hypocrisy I see here is in the members who virtually under any other circumstances would condemn a government official for using his office to exercise an attack on a company's free speech (regardless of what that issue is.)
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@Double_R
tell me where I am getting your position wrong?
It's clear that his position reflects on a deviation from the standard norm, the standard norm being that major corporations dictate policy to politicians at the expense of the general public (a major reason why all Americans are suffering right now) in exchange for political contributions.
His position is that in a healthy society, Government representatives hold the corporations that dictate policy accountable when those policies are detrimental to their constituents, even if it means a loss of political funding instead of conveniently working together with no opposition or accountability.
So for example, when donors tell Biden to shut down Oil and Gas production, he tells them to go pound sand when he realizes how much harm it will do to Americans instead of conveniently working hand in hand as he is now.
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@Double_R
I never said nor implied that this abuse of power was unique to Ron Desantis.
Well, ok… you would also have a problem with Trump.
In fact I’ve said nothing about any other scenario.
That’s the crux of what I’m saying about how you frame this as unique to the GOP.
the political right has been progressing to champion for at least the past two years
Do you believe that the Democratic Party, in contrast, does not claim to prioritize the 1A?
That it’s the political right that is defending this
And, likewise, the political left defends its stances, hypocritical or not. It is as if you cannot comprehend human biases and are unaware of your own.
so I turn to the place which, sadly, offers the best and most intelligent rationalization
Yes, I feel as if online discussions were much more nuanced and enlightening 15 years ago. Maybe the concept was fresher and more appealing then…
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@Athias
I’m sure there are plenty of DeSantis voters who happen to be employed by Disney…
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@Athias
#homeschoolyourchildren
No.
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@ILikePie5
Just on a side note, it’s horrible policy for firms to engage in politics.
corporations are the largest contributors to political campaigns
this of course includes news organizations
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@Athias
I would hate to have you as the President. If we choose to take the higher road forever, sooner or later the country won’t exist. If a country attacked you, would you sit back and let them kill your own people. That’s the higher road right?
At some point you have to say no. What point is that. You have yet to answer that.
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@3RU7AL
corporations are the largest contributors to political campaignsthis of course includes news organizations
I apologize, I meant public criticism
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@ILikePie5
I apologize, I meant public criticism
did disney say something critical of desantis (or "the government" generally) before the retaliation ?