Freedom of Speech

Author: Double_R

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cristo71
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@ILikePie5
DeSantis projects strength and conviction, which serves a nation well ; ) in a leader.

If you want a president who projects conviction but not strength, you get Carter. If you want a president who projects neither strength nor conviction, you get Biden. If you want a president who projects a lack of strength, conviction, knowledge, and skill, you get Harris.
Double_R
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@ILikePie5
Easy. Democratic legislators used their power to ban Chick Fil A from operating in airports because of their “anti-LGBT” beliefs. Sounds like targeting to me.
The example you’re citing appears to be when the San Antonio city counsel voted a ban chic- fil-a from its airport. That’s an awfully benign comparison, even if it were valid. But it’s not.

It’s not retaliation to decide that you are not ok with companies discriminating against certain segments of the population. That’s a policy stance. Saying “I’m going to strip you of your status because you criticize me” is retaliation. Do you understand the difference, or shall I explain further?

Liberal are using scorched earth tactics with their social/cultural issues, while conservatives just dilly dally on the higher road.
Republicans have launched an all out assault on voting rights, are actively working to install public officials who will advocate for the governments right to decide the winner of the election instead of its own people, are gerrymandering the shit out of the house races, have two SC Justices on the bench because of the most brazen hypocrisy I’ve seen in my lifetime, and then there is the flagrant disregard for the very idea of civility or truth, like Kevin McCarthy standing in front of cameras telling the nation he didn’t say what we all just heard him say on tape, which he will pay absolutely no political price for. MTG and Lauren Bobert repeatedly say the dumbest and most offensive things about the Holocaust, again, no political price. The idea that conservatives take the high road is the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard you say.

I would condemn them. But if nothing is done about, which let’s be honest, hasn’t, Democrats should have no concern about it happening with them.



It’s a simple question: how far does it have to go for you to say enough is enough?
I actually found this bit to be very revealing. You cannot claim you have principals when you are so easily willing to abandon them. I mean no disrespect when I say this, but this is why I take nothing you say seriously. Pretty much every exchange I read from you is in defense of something your “side” did that you are ok with because ‘other side bad’. There is nothing serious about that.

I’m sure you will levy the same criticism of me, but in my view what I do is very different. I will certainly attack what I see as hypocrisy and in many cases I refuse to engage with someone until they acknowledge their own hypocrisy, but I would never pretend that what my side did was ok because the other side did it too, with very few exceptions.

One of those exceptions would be that I support democrats never confirming another Republican appointed SC nominee. But that’s not a principal issue, it’s a process issue. Republicans have made it clear that this is their playbook, so democrats have no choice. But when it comes to matters of principal and integrity, that’s a completely different issue.
3RU7AL
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@Double_R
You cannot claim you have principals when you are so easily willing to abandon them.
“Their morals, their code; it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble."
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@3RU7AL
did disney say something critical of desantis (or "the government" generally) before the retaliation ?

Yes.  The State of Florida is explicitly singling out and punishing Disney for publishing this statement:

“Florida’s HB 1557, also known as the ‘Don’t Say Gay’ bill, should never have passed and should never have been signed into law. Our goal as a company is for this law to be repealed by the legislature or struck down in the courts, and we remain committed to supporting the national and state organizations working to achieve that. We are dedicated to standing up for the rights and safety of LGBTQ+ members of the Disney family, as well as the LGBTQ+ community in Florida and across the country.”

Double_R
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@cristo71
In fact I’ve said nothing about any other scenario.
That’s the crux of what I’m saying about how you frame this as unique to the GOP.
This is a perfect example of why our conversations go no where.

Starting a thread saying “action X is bad, so can those who defend it please explain why” does not imply anything you’re suggesting. But that’s what you are hearing because you are not looking at what’s being said, you’re busy looking for hidden motivations so you can focus on me instead.

This really is simple, do you agree with what he did? If so why? And can you please square your position on this with your self professed principals?

That’s all.

Do you believe that the Democratic Party, in contrast, does not claim to prioritize the 1A?
Of course they do, but it’s not a central issue for them. Just watch 1 hour of cpac speeches and watch how many times free speech comes up. If there were a Democratic equivalent how many times do you think we would hear that? It wouldn’t even compare.

And, likewise, the political left defends its stances, hypocritical or not. It is as if you cannot comprehend human biases and are unaware of your own.
No, it’s because I recognize that two things can be true at the same time. If you’d like to start a thread on any of your perceived left wing hypocrisy’s I will be happy to chime in with my thoughts. Until then, we’re not talking about me or the political left. This thread is about Florida and Desantis. Let me know if you have any thoughts on that.

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@oromagi
pretty strong words for a mouse
cristo71
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@Double_R
This is a perfect example of why our conversations go no where.
Yet you post to me unsolicited anyway.

you’re busy looking for hidden motivations so you can focus on me instead.
They’re hardly hidden; you wear them on your sleeve, which is just fine other than you refuse to own up to them, and I don’t focus on *you*; I focus on what you say— big difference— as well as what you neglect to say. I recall you avoiding answering straightforward questions from me because you were convinced I was “going for the ‘gotcha!’” so there’s a lack of self awareness in your posts which creates much irony…

Of course they do, but it’s not a central issue for them.
Of course, the Democrats prioritize the 1A, but it’s not a central issue for them? You have a dizzying intellect…

Greyparrot
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@cristo71
"Priority" is one of those Orwellian words corrupted by the left. It doesn't mean First on the to do list anymore. It now means somewhere up there on the list, who knows where, but it is up there.
Double_R
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@cristo71
Yet you post to me unsolicited anyway.
Would you prefer to be written off as not worth the attempt at serious conversation?


They’re hardly hidden; you wear them on your sleeve, which is just fine other than you refuse to own up to them
Or… you are just not paying attention to what I’m actually saying because you’re so busy injecting caricatured motives into your assessment of what I wrote.

and I don’t focus on *you*; I focus on what you say— big difference
Yes it is. So let’s look at what you actually said so we can test that…

That the OP attempts to frame the whole 1A violation controversy as unique to DeSantis’ actions should be an insult to everyone’s intelligence in this forum.
That has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. That is purely a statement about me or more specifically what I’m attempting to do here, clearly painting me as being deceptive.

So yes, you were focused on me.

Of course, the Democrats prioritize the 1A, but it’s not a central issue for them?
Correct. The only reason we are talking about the 1A is because the political right doesn't know what it means and keeps on claiming their free speech is being violated because society doesn’t like what they have to say. In other words, it’s a response to what the right has made a central political issue.

You can’t seriously think the left is driving this. How many people in these mid terms will vote based on concerns about free speech? Now tell me what percentage of that do you think we’ll be republican vote vs for democrats? It won’t even be close.

3RU7AL
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@Double_R
That the OP attempts to frame the whole 1A violation controversy as unique to DeSantis’ actions should be an insult to everyone’s intelligence in this forum.
That has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. That is purely a statement about me or more specifically what I’m attempting to do here, clearly painting me as being deceptive.
great point

i do try to steer clear of characterizing individuals and speculating on possible motives

i also do my best to avoid stating any (undeclared) speculations as if they were "facts"
Athias
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@cristo71
I’m sure there are plenty of DeSantis voters who happen to be employed by Disney…
I would presume so. But again, if the jargon about government is to believed, isn't DeSantis obliged to the members of his State, even those who hold opposing political views?
Athias
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@ILikePie5
I would hate to have you as the President.
I would never run for President; if I were offered the office, I would refuse.

If we choose to take the higher road forever, sooner or later the country won’t exist. If a country attacked you, would you sit back and let them kill your own people. That’s the higher road right? 
This has nothing to do with our discussion.

At some point you have to say no. What point is that. You have yet to answer that.
Because your proposition makes no sense. You admitted that on principle, DeSantis's actions were "probably unconstitutional," which I would presume reflects, at least in some part, some reservations about what was done to Disney. A politician used his office in retaliation to a company's political dissent. That is what I am arguing against. But you guys are making it about the target, rather than principle that was undermined. When two or more sides gloss over principle in matters of dispute, that is tacit concession that principles don't matter. Then it simply becomes two or more warring factions fighting over the authority to exploit each other (and that's essential what Democracy is.)

You guys are just arguing hypocrisy which you're only attempting to veil under the platitude of "giving Democrats a piece of their own medicine." Endorsing DeSantis's actions is not tantamount to stating "no more" to Democrats; you're only endorsing one of the latest attacks on one of the principles you allegedly hold dear--i.e. Free Speech.
cristo71
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@Athias
If a politician does not advance, or at least appear to advance the interests of at least a majority of the electorate, then he/she tends not to win re-election. As for constituents with opposing views, a leader is charged with advancing their interests insofar as the interests are in common between opposing factions, but where the interests of the minority electorate diverge and are also not protected by the state constitution, then no, the governor is not obliged to act outside the policy platform on which he was elected.
ILikePie5
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@Athias
I’ve never denied that. I’m just saying taking the high road forever is unsustainable. It’s not overtly wrong to say ideally I’d like free speech for everyone. Democrats clearly don’t support that. They’ve won all the social issues for the past couple of decades.

You still have yet to answer my question, which in itself is telling. My whole premise is that when the higher road doesn’t work (we both know it hasn’t on social issues), you have to do something.
ILikePie5
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@cristo71
I recall you avoiding answering straightforward questions from me because you were convinced I was “going for the ‘gotcha!’” so there’s a lack of self awareness in your posts which creates much irony…
Pretty sure he’s having flashbacks from when I did that to him in our debate. At least he’s learning lol
cristo71
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@Double_R
Would you prefer to be written off as not worth the attempt at serious conversation?
The feeling would be mutual.

Greyparrot
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I’ve never denied that. I’m just saying taking the high road forever is unsustainable. It’s not overtly wrong to say ideally I’d like free speech for everyone. Democrats clearly don’t support that. They’ve won all the social issues for the past couple of decades.
As has been said before, Disney executives have not lost one iota of their power to speak freely, considering they own multiple media platforms not available to most people. The only way Disney executives can be incarcerated in this instance is if they refuse to pay taxes to Florida. Until then, they can say whatever they want, whenever they want.

The issue isn't really about free speech. Politicians use the government to retaliate against political opposition at every chance. That has been going on since the founding of the country. The real problem is how much of this political retaliation society has been willing to tolerate as "business as usual"
Using the FBI to screen "misinformation" to censorship outlets while also fabricating misinformation as "credible evidence" against political enemies is definitely a recent thing. I found it really funny when a top FBI agent testified to Congress that he "lost" the Hunter Laptop evidence.....

"I’m holding the receipt from Mac’s Computer Repair, where in December 2019 they turned over this laptop to the FBI, and now you’re telling me right here, that as the assistant director of FBI cyber you don’t know where this is after it was turned over to you three years ago?"
Vorndran: "Yes, sir, that’s an accurate statement."

Some agency! Competent leadership!
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@ILikePie5
What seems inevitable is that Republicans are going to use the FBI to destroy their political opposition once they get their people in there. The public seems too apathetic to care about it though.
Double_R
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@ILikePie5
It’s not overtly wrong to say ideally I’d like free speech for everyone. Democrats clearly don’t support that. They’ve won all the social issues for the past couple of decades.
Free speech means the government cannot use its power to silence you, it does not mean you have a right to “win” on social issues.
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@Greyparrot
Disney executives have not lost one iota of their power to speak freely,
if i am investigated by the IRS, and they say the investigation is SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE I ISSUED A PRESS RELEASE that criticized a new government edict,

that doesn't magically "silence" me

but it does have a chilling effect on others publicly sharing the same opinion and or other potential criticism

an "attack on free speech" does not need to clear the bar of cutting out my tongue and breaking all my fingers

an "attack on free speech" is any retaliation by official government offices and or officers specifically as a reaction to some written or spoken (or other artistic and or crude expression of) criticism
cristo71
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@3RU7AL
great point

i do try to steer clear of characterizing individuals…
Yet post 28 shows his desire to do the opposite…

Double_R
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@Greyparrot
As has been said before, Disney executives have not lost one iota of their power to speak freely, considering they own multiple media platforms not available to most people.
And if they use them to express their dissent against the Florida government they will suffer financial and/or legal repercussions, just like they did the first time.

Sorry to tell you but that’s not what free speech is.
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@3RU7AL

an "attack on free speech" is any retaliation by official government offices and or officers specifically as a reaction to some written or spoken (or other artistic and or crude expression of) criticism

The two prosecutors leading the Manhattan district attorney’s investigation into former President Donald J. Trump and his business practices abruptly resigned on Wednesday amid a monthlong pause in their presentation of evidence to a grand jury, according to people with knowledge of the matter.

The unexpected development came not long after the high-stakes inquiry appeared to be gaining momentum and now throws its future into serious doubt.

The prosecutors, Carey R. Dunne and Mark F. Pomerantz, submitted their resignations because the new Manhattan district attorney, Alvin Bragg, indicated to them that he had doubts about moving forward with a case against Mr. Trump, the people said.

Mr. Pomerantz confirmed in a brief interview that he had resigned but declined to elaborate. Mr. Dunne declined to comment.
None of these government officials are going to be prosecuted for retaliating against the speech of Trump, even though they clearly reacted to Trump's words "I am running for President"

If this retaliation isn't a free speech violation, then no retaliation is.
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@Greyparrot
If this retaliation isn't a free speech violation, then no retaliation is.
are you suggesting that the investigation was initiated because trump ran for president (which could conceivably be interpreted as a "criticism of government") ?

or, are you suggesting that the investigation ended because trump ran for president (which would be the exact opposite of "retaliation") ?
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@3RU7AL
There are hundreds of instances of political retaliation once Trump uttered those words.

are you suggesting that the investigation ended because trump ran for president.
Check the date on the article.
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@Greyparrot
There are hundreds of instances of political retaliation once Trump uttered those words.
the desantis versus disney case is substantially more clear cut
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@3RU7AL
They are equally clear cut. Trump was a beloved celebrity until he uttered those words. There are over 100 instances of documented government retaliation against Trump after those words were spoken vs the one against Disney.

There is nothing magical in 2022 that makes one a violation and another not a violation.
Athias
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@cristo71
If a politician does not advance, or at least appear to advance the interests of at least a majority of the electorate, then he/she tends not to win re-election. As for constituents with opposing views, a leader is charged with advancing their interests insofar as the interests are in common between opposing factions, but where the interests of the minority electorate diverge and are also not protected by the state constitution, then no, the governor is not obliged to act outside the policy platform on which he was elected.
No one mentioned, "obliged to act outside the policy on which he was elected." And no one's mentioned that he had to concede to Disney's position. This is about a governor who used his office to penalize a company for a political dispute.
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@Greyparrot
They are equally clear cut.
which government official publicly and clearly stated that they were taking action against trup BECAUSE of trup's criticism of government policy ?
Athias
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I’ve never denied that.
Then what are we arguing about?

I’m just saying taking the high road forever is unsustainable.
Taking the high road over what? Disney's not a political party.

You still have yet to answer my question, which in itself is telling.
Because the question is irrelevant and derailing.