---Star Trek DS9 Mafia: DP3---

Author: bsh1

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#61
Buddamoose
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@Wylted
Again more stupid shit

The role is useless or useful depending on my mood and circumstances 

You know, this doesn't make you look any less scummy and just reinforces my point that you've consistently been setting up outs for urself should anything you post draw an FoS. 
#62
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@Buddamoose
I don't trust any of my reads at all. I'm very embarrassed for getting GP wrong. Now I doubt any thought that enters my head is worthy of entertaining
#63
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I am of many minds. Almost like multiple personality 
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#64
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Vote Count

Wylted (1/5) - DPR
#65
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@Wylted
I don't trust any of my reads

Understanding that, I dont generally ask that question because I necessarily want to know ur reads. I think we both do understand at least that. 

On another question, why is soft claiming towny to you? Do you consider it to be intrinsically towny to do, or is it's towniness hingent upon something? 

#66
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*this is about to be some real talk about tells*
#67
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It's not town as long as you know that there is no other role that claim could be, I'may happy though
#68
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It's not towny. I just want everyone to know no other role fits with that soft claim

Fucking auto correct on this phone randomly inserts shit

#69
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I ask for reads to see if we can build a consensus or to see who I need to persuade. Not sure the utility of asking for them otherwise. Town supa, scum lunatic. Null everyone else
#70
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@Wylted
and why lunatic?
#71
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@Buddamoose
Just popping up at convenient times to help lynches on town members go through and what not.
#72
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That wasn't lunatic. It was argent I thiink. I don't know just odd both DPs had barely active people who managed to jump on when we needed the push for the lynch. I think I meant argent but confused her with lunatic
#73
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Guys, I'm losing it a bit. I tend to have a lot of ruminating thoughts and they get pretty twisted. I think the debate with RM and me thinking of reasons I should kill myself started it. At home I put on a decent facade of having it all together sometimes, but on here the mask comes off. I did see a psychologist that told me basically to get out of my own head, and I feel like I was doing well, and then the debate with RM got me ruminating and also when I play pool, I noticed that I choke a lot under pressure, but that if I start thinking of dying I can set off a little panic attack in myself that helps me to stop over focusing and shoot at the top of my game. That as well I think has started me on a path that isn't good.

I'm becoming a bit unraveled. My anxiety has worsened, I am constantly scanning for threats, A type of paranoia takes over. Panic attacks worsen. My memory plays games on me. All of your names are getting jumbled together so I may remember budda saying something that sloth actually says, or remember an action GP took that actually was something vaarka did. I'm trying my best in this game though. It just isn't good enough.
#74
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@Wylted
Then I'm gonna be honest, you should prolly bow out, because you've been acting maf AF this game.
#75
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@Buddamoose
Your logic has really been terrible though. I can't even chalk that up to you being scum sadly. Bowing out will do nothing. Either I guess correctly tonight and die or you lynch me at some point and I die, nobody is going to be able to take this spot and make everyone town read him. It's not even a scum tell that I pushed so hard for a lynch. If anything bowing out just prevents the next person from taking a spot they can succeed in.
#76
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@Wylted
 I don't know just odd both DPs had barely active people who managed to jump on when we needed the push for the lynch

Yes, so why single out just one player in that group, when the rationale for the one being scum, doesnt apply to them exclusively?
#77
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@Buddamoose
Yes, so why single out just one player in that group, when the rationale for the one being scum, doesnt apply to them exclusively?

Him doing it stuck out in my head, but when I reread the vote counts it was missing, which to me is also suspicious. Did he avoid those lynches because he knew they were town and so he could later on point out that he was on no town wagons. I'm looking for barely active people who are atleast 4 votes in on the lynch. I think argent might be the only one that fits now, not sure.
#78
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Grey (6/6) - Wylted, Supa, Warren, Argent, Vaar, LM

Supa (7/7) - Aporia, Budda, Argent, DPR, Warren, Wylted, Grey

Those are the lists. Argent is on both. I know lynch train analysis has fallen out of favor but I think it could be useful.
#79
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argent was late on both, so not leading the lynches but just jumping on convenient bandwagons
#80
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@Buddamoose
I missed the post. Why town read the pirate?
#81
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We should just have 4 roles each, because nobody else does shit
#82
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#83
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Me and budda now tied for badges and I get a new badge like on a daily
#84
Buddamoose
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Your logic has really been terrible though

You keep saying this, you havent yet to actually address the "logic" behind you being scummy. How can i state this in a way that will make it clearer. 

You are selectively applying your rationale, to a considerable degree. I am more than happy to document this, extensively. 

You have barely committed to anything beyond what shades you as town/what you expose you already thought was town to begin with. 

Your night actions are contradictory to your supplied justification for saying your role is useless. 

You throughout your defense kept, by consequence of the defense, negating previous defenses used/exposing them as contrived. 


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This next part as a whole is to illustrate the potential motives behind the soft claim. There was a motive behind soft claiming, its too blatant of an action for there not to be. 

Your soft claim was obscure, and would have required someone put effort into research that you, based upon your lack of desire to elaborate some reads, would not do yourself. So I have a hard time seeing how it being a hedge against a janitor is true. 

You aren't claiming a role that would generate an actual, "this is a true CC" buzz. Bodyguards are almost neutral to utility, not surprising if two are in a game. So it's not like ur claiming a role that a cc might be hedged against with, like cop or doc. So I don't really buy this motive either

The one i do buy is that you soft claimed with the explicit purpose of it being town read later on. You of course understand that's suspicious, which is fmpov why you said,

"it's not town, I just want everyone to know no other role fits with that soft claim. 

"Look at this thing i did that I said was town to do" while simultaneously hedging against it looking like you're trying to say soft claiming is town/trying to insist upon your own townness, because that's scummy. 


Townies shouldn't care how they look period, end of story

Thats you, this DP. Odd how focused you were on making yourself look town with a soft claim when townies according to you shouldn't care about that. So we are to believe because you do, this makes you scum, yes? 

#85
Buddamoose
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It's not town as long as you know that there is no other role that claim could be

On an independent note from this being part of "setting up your own tells for the purpose of manufacturing a TR...

No, just no. Soft claiming is hingent upon there being a janitor for it to be a town tell. In a game w/ a maf janitor, mafia have every incentive to not claim anything so as to maintain total flexibility w/janitored claims. By consequence soft claiming beforehand looks town AF. 

But even beyond that, soft claiming is a backup in and of itself against a janitor. A recognizable(to an extent) narrowed claim deters/prevents mafia from NK'ing or using the janitored claim if NK'd. If mafia use the claim and that soft claim is recognized, then mafia are caught.

This is the only time breadcrumbing actually is a solid AF town tell. Alternatively, it is helpful to a townies case in the event of a CC, or they are CC'ing, but not to the extent it would result in an automatic preference of one over the other.

But a soft claims towniness has nothing to do with the strength of the soft claim, whether char and role match, whether a soft claimed char can only match a certain role, and everything to do with the motives behind it and to an extent the circumstances surrounding that soft claim. 
#86
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whether a soft claimed char can only match a certain role,

*Whether a soft claim can only match a certain thing* 

For this to be relevant you would have to hold mafia as incapable of creating a fake claim and breadcrumbing it/ fake claims being supplied and breadcrumbed. Town would magically have to be the only ones capable of doing that 😂
#87
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Townies shouldn't care how they look period, end of story

Thats you, this DP. Odd how focused you were on making yourself look town with a soft claim when townies according to you shouldn't care about that. So we are to believe because you do, this makes you scum, yes? 

That's not what I mean. Soft claims are okay, as long as they are near to impossible to unravel without you aiding it in being done, and as long as it is also the only likely explanation for that soft claim. When I say townies should not try to act town, I am specifically referring to certain behaviors, such as holding back. So if they think it could come across as scummy, to go hard after somebody they think is scum, they shouldn't hold back because of some misguided fear of being scum read. They should play to the best of their ability, not hold back merely because trying their best to scum hunt will make them look scummy in some way. It in no way means that they should not do things to help being town read such as soft claim, as long as they aren't trying so hard it distracts them from scum hunting.

#88
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Your logic has really been terrible though

You keep saying this, you havent yet to actually address the "logic" behind you being scummy. How can i state this in a way that will make it clearer. 

I don't believe in doing that. Everyone else can discuss that logic. FT said not to defend yourself in these situations. Just look for whoever really is scum and prove it to town.

our night actions are contradictory to your supplied justification for saying your role is useless. 
So what, I have a role and I'm using it. If somebody is widely town read and I am not, it is better to keep them in the game over myself if I also believe them to be town. It prevents a later mislynch. Whether I go back and forth on the ideal of the roles usefulness or if I think it is useful in rare situations and I just happened to find myself in one, doesn't matter.

The one i do buy is that you soft claimed with the explicit purpose of it being town read later on. You of course understand that's suspicious, which is fmpov why you said,

Are you turning this into a philosophical discussion of whether soft claims are something town should do? scum and town both soft claim and it is not scummy to soft claim. I assume everyone's purpose is to tie themselves down to a claim, to get some town cred if that is neccessary in late stages of the game such as mylo or lylo.
#89
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posted dp almost 24 hours ago and we have 2 active  participants. This is silly.
#90
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@Wylted
 Are you turning this into a philosophical discussion of whether soft claims are something town should do?

No, what would make you even think that? I clearly outlined multiple benefits to soft claiming. I'm trying to explain to you and everyone else by consequence that your presentation of soft claims is just patently untrue, but that your soft claim was explicitly done with the expectation it would come off as town, so it's not indicative in the least bit of your affiliation.

You are saying "it's not town, both town and scum do it" but also positing it becomes towny when done in exactly the manner you did it. It does not, full stock. 

You keep pointing out FT, but you are ignoring 90% of his scum hunting philosophy and just using the name to try and falsely give yourself cred. 

"Why do you think soft claiming is towny"

Was rooted in both discerning why you soft claimed, but also in highlighting what is both false and a convenient representation of soft claimings indicativeness of affiliation in a manner that makes you town. 

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When the objective is to/potentially is to decieve the other, tells are not still tells once someone is aware of the tell(not to mention if they do it for the purpose of illiciting that tell.). In poker if you win some hands cause you noticed someone has X tell when bluffing, good job. But once it backfires and it becomes clear they became aware of the tell, you dont keep trying to exploit the tell. A person who knows/thinks X is a tell can/will manipulate that knowledge to their advantage. Its not that said advantage cant have town motives in this case that disqualifies the tell as a tell, its that it has clear and exigent potential scum motives.

Oddly also you have missed almost all of my analysis has been rooted fundamentally in exposing behaviors that belie an underlying predominant/overarching non-town or town motive.

This was actually one of the cores of FT's scumhunting strat. Actions and behaviors are not inherently indicative, it's the motives that underlie them that discern the affiliation. Its WHY they did it, not necessarily WHAT they did.

I assume everyone's purpose is to tie themselves down to a claim, to get some town cred if that is neccessary in late stages of the game such as mylo or lylo

This why you get no town cred for soft claiming. You did it for survival and for your own appearance. It wasn't for any other reason but to manufacture town cred. To be able to go, "look how towny i am!!". Thats a null behavior, full stop. 

Soft claims are okay, as long as they are near to impossible to unravel without you aiding it in being done and as long as it is also the only likely explanation for that soft claim

Sure, they're ok. Whether or not they're ok doesn't have relevance to their indicativeness towards affiliations soft claiming has. 

The first listed reason only has null and scum motives. The second listed reason is only relevant to the "telling" nature of soft claiming if only town are capable of soft claiming in a manner that is explainable. 

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