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@FLRW
Where is your evidence?
Who here says that men can have babies?
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@TheUnderdog
It's from: 20 amazing facts about the human body
3 ATOM COUNT
It is hard to grasp just how small the atoms that make up your body are until you take a look at the sheer number of them. An adult is made up of around 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (7 octillion) atoms.
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@TheUnderdog
A surprising amount of the body mass of a human is also bacteria.
The human body contains trillions of microorganisms — outnumbering human cells by 10 to 1. Because of their small size, however, microorganisms make up only about 1 to 3 percent of the body's mass (in a 200-pound adult, that's 2 to 6 pounds of bacteria), but play a vital role in human health.
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@Greyparrot
@FLRW
At an atomic level the human body is made up of mostly emptiness.
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@thett3
Yes that is my idea of how it works. What’s so inconceivable about it?
You’re arguing that the need one feels to change their sex is dependent on what the people around them have to say about it. I’m sure any trans person would find that preposterous.
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@TheMorningsStar
I think that non-affirming therapies work (did for me). They are used for every non-gender related body dysphoria because they work, and so why think they wouldn't work for gender dysphoria?
Because “I don’t like my tits, they’re too small” is not the same thing as “I don’t belong in the body I was born into”. But setting that aside, I don’t take issue with the idea of therapy here, I take issue with people arguing that the way to help these people is to deny them a dignified existence by treating them how they want to be treated. If they want therapy, then by all means. If they don’t, that’s their choice.
I don’t know much about your political leanings but it doesn’t escape me that most of the same people advocating against letting these people live their lives how they want are the same people constantly advocating for all of their political ideals under the mantle of freedom.
I don’t know much about your political leanings but it doesn’t escape me that most of the same people advocating against letting these people live their lives how they want are the same people constantly advocating for all of their political ideals under the mantle of freedom.
What about the self-serving medical community that lies about risks and outcomes of these procedures? Most of them have plenty of insurance to cover the lawsuits. Where are the incentives for reform?
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@Double_R
I take issue with people arguing that the way to help these people is to deny them a dignified existence by treating them how they want to be treated
But this is my issue here.
We don't treat people with bulimia the way they want to be treated, in regards to their body image, because we know that it is better for them (physically).
Why, then, should we treat trans people the way they want to be treated, in regards to their body image, if we feel as if doing so is worse for them (mentally)?
And it also goes back to another point I had made, reality denial.
Let's say that we treat someone that is MtF the way they want to be treated. If they want to play competitive sports do we let them? Are we forced to deny the reality of sexual dimorphism in order to allow them to compete? If not, then we already aren't treating them the way they want to be treated.
Then it comes to question how well the mental health of children raised by trans parents will be in the long run. I am bi myself and am fully willing to admit that there are enough studies to raise doubts on if children raised in same sex homes have the same outcome as traditional homes (nothing is yet conclusive).
Now a question needs to be asked about the same in regards to trans parents, and this is especially important because there exists both affirming and non-affirming therapies that work in regards to gender dysphoria (while sexual orientation is not malleable). This could raise even further issues, but there is a legitimate concern on if those studies would actually be unbiased. Too many studies around gender dysphoria already have crap methodology and often the conclusions drawn are pro-affirmation when the data says otherwise (see one of my earlier comments), who knows what would happen if this topic was studied.
I am fully willing to change my mind on if affirmation is a workable treatment, are you willing to change your mind that it isn't?
I love the quick jump to I don't like the way you live so you can't be a good parent line.
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@TheMorningsStar
We don't treat people with bulimia the way they want to be treated, in regards to their body image, because we know that it is better for them (physically).Why, then, should we treat trans people the way they want to be treated, in regards to their body image, if we feel as if doing so is worse for them (mentally)?
Because the two are nothing alike. Bulimics aren’t just people who have a desired weight which the rest of us consider too skinny. Bulimics are always in fear of gaining weight no matter how skinny they are and are always fixated on how fat they are regardless of how disgustingly skinny they get. Even setting aside the physical objectively verifiable harm they are doing to their bodies (which is no throw away point here) these are people whose emotional disorder is clearly and objectively causing them to live outside of reality.
There is nothing like that with the general trans population, caricatures aside. So for you to pretend that the two are the same continues to make my point on why it’s so insulting and condescending to act as if we should all treat them like mental patients for their own good.
Let's say that we treat someone that is MtF the way they want to be treated. If they want to play competitive sports do we let them? Are we forced to deny the reality of sexual dimorphism in order to allow them to compete? If not, then we already aren't treating them the way they want to be treated.
The freedom to swing your arms ends at someone else’s nose. So when I or anyone else talks about treating others as they want to be treated we do so as long as it doesn’t negatively impact anyone else.
The question of what sports they should be allowed to play is an entirely different conversation. And for the record, I am generally against anyone born a man competing in women’s sports.
Then it comes to question how well the mental health of children raised by trans parents will be in the long run. I am bi myself and am fully willing to admit that there are enough studies to raise doubts on if children raised in same sex homes have the same outcome as traditional homes (nothing is yet conclusive).Now a question needs to be asked about the same in regards to trans parents
If there is nothing conclusive on same sex homes then why does the question “need to be asked” with regards to trans parents?
I am fully willing to change my mind on if affirmation is a workable treatment, are you willing to change your mind that it isn't?
Of course, but as your own source stated; there isn’t enough data to conclude the impacts of these treatments. Which means that we are both just working off of our own biases, which is why I take issue with it. My inclination is to let them live how they want and treat them as dignified human beings. Your inclination seems to be to treat them as if they are crazy and/or delusional while denying them the simple ask of respecting how they want to be addressed because you believe without any valid evidence that your approach is better for them.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Not the point being made, the point being made is that not only does it seem unhealthy for their mental health but that it might also be impactful on future generations.
If you have two options, one of which is worse for your mental health and the mental health of your children and the other is better then why should anyone capitulate to the former? We are a social species and as such looking out for the social group (especially the next generations of said group) is a moral imperative.
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@Double_R
Because the two are nothing alike.
As in one is bad for physical health and the other potentially bad for mental health?
Ya, they have differences, but that doesn't mean the similarities should be dismissed.
So when I or anyone else talks about treating others as they want to be treated we do so as long as it doesn’t negatively impact anyone else.
And what do you use to determine if it negatively impacts anyone else?
When mental health issues are in play, how do you determine which ones you decide to affirm and which ones you don't?
And for the record, I am generally against anyone born a man competing in women’s sports.
Then they already are not being treated the way they want to be treated, so what is the issue? How do you justify one and not the other?
If there is nothing conclusive on same sex homes then why does the question “need to be asked” with regards to trans parents?
I mean, the source I used concludes that it seems as if there are negative long-term effects but that more research is need. The only reason I included the "nothing conclusive" line is because of other studies that have concluded otherwise (though those studies tended to have methodological issues that the one I linked didn't).
The point is that I think that if there really was no difference when it comes to same-sex couples that there would have been very conclusive findings that did not have methodological issues by now, but that just is not the case. It raises legitimate concerns, and we already have significant data that single parent households are not as good for children as two-parent households.
So a legitimate question needs to be asked, is the traditional mother-father household the best? Is a same-sex household better than a household with a trans parent? Etc.
This is because, unlike with same-sex couples, unlike with single parent households, etc. there are working therapies that deal with gender dysphoria in a non-affirming manner. Which therapies should be pushed for is dependent upon multiple factors, and this is one of them. If the two therapy styles (affirming and non-affirming) are not equal then it changes how things should be addressed.
Of course, but as your own source stated; there isn’t enough data to conclude the impacts of these treatments.
Which source are you referring to (I have linked a few)? If you mean the reassignment surgery one then it is important to note that on correction it was pointed out that there are zero benefits and that the author also had to, in the 3rd source listed, acknowledge that the data does indicate increased anxiety issues (but didn't acknowledge the other issues were worse even when that was also a legitimate conclusion you could draw).
That isn't just "not enough data to conclude anything", it is "enough data to conclude one thing is worse while more research is needed on the other factors". When you also consider the numbers in question, that is a very different thing entirely.
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@TheMorningsStar
Because the two are nothing alike.As in one is bad for physical health and the other potentially bad for mental health?
If you wanted to know why I say they are different all you had to do is keep reading.
And what do you use to determine if it negatively impacts anyone else?
The same way we determine whether anything negatively impacts someone else.
When mental health issues are in play, how do you determine which ones you decide to affirm and which ones you don't?
When a person is making a decision of sound mind and it does not harm anyone else, that’s when I affirm.
And for the record, I am generally against anyone born a man competing in women’s sports.Then they already are not being treated the way they want to be treated, so what is the issue? How do you justify one and not the other?
Did you read anything I wrote? I already explained this.
The point is that I think that if there really was no difference when it comes to same-sex couples that there would have been very conclusive findings that did not have methodological issues by now, but that just is not the case.
You’re using the absence of evidence as evidence. That’s nonsense.
The LGBT community has no obligation to prove to you that they are capable of raising a family. The default position is that any couple is capable of raising a loving family until we have reason to believe otherwise.
That isn't just "not enough data to conclude anything", it is "enough data to conclude one thing is worse while more research is needed on the other factors".
That’s nonsense because there’s no indication of causation. If the raised anxiety and other issues were there before the surgery then of course that group would have been more likely to seek medical treatment, and if the anxiety issues were increased after the surgery that could be easily explainable by the way society (lead by folks like yourself) treat the trans community.
So in the absence of the data needed to fully understand this phenomenon we are again, just using the results to affirm our own biases.
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@Double_R
If you wanted to know why I say they are different all you had to do is keep reading.
I did keep reading, all you did was outline why bulimia had physical health issues and then claimed that gender dysphoria isn't like that (when you have no reason to think so).
The same way we determine whether anything negatively impacts someone else.
I asked because I want to know your standards, not so you can make a meaningless reply.
When a person is making a decision of sound mind and it does not harm anyone else, that’s when I affirm.
Okay, how do you determine if someone is of sound mind?
There are people that have a mental health disorder where they feel like they need to amputate an arm, or a finger. These people are determined to not be of sound mind and so they are given non-affirming therapies instead.
Same with many other disorders.
So, how do you determine this? Is someone that was born a man and desperately wants to be considered a woman of sound mind?
Did you read anything I wrote? I already explained this.
Yes, I read what you wrote, but you are inconsistent.
Either these people's self-image should be affirmed or it shouldn't be. You keep saying that not affirming is wrong and then go on to justify non-affirmation in some instances. Whatever harm that you think comes about from non-affirmation will, thus, be present already when they try to live in society. If someone going through affirmation therapy is harmed by non-affirmation then this means that they will always be harmed if you don't change all of society to capitulate.
The point is, ultimately, that if you try to justify non-affirming attitudes in some areas while trying to argue that affirming attitudes should be adopted in others that you are creating a harmful environment, and thus we end up at a point where non-affirming therapies are better (as there won't be a harmful environment).
I am merely arguing that your inconsistent attitude does not work with your preferred therapy for gender dysphoria.
You’re using the absence of evidence as evidence. That’s nonsense.
Not really, have you ever heard of a modus tollens? If X then Y, not Y therefore not X? It is proper logic. Sometimes an absence of evidence can be evidence of absence.
With how many studies and with over how long they have been conducted it is reasonable to expect that if there was no difference that we should find studies that lack methodological issues that conclude such. We don't see such studies and, in fact, can find studies that suggest that it is worse (even if those studies are limited in scope, they don't have the methodological issues). So it is reasonable to conclude that the idea that there is no difference is false until given reason to think otherwise.
The default position is that any couple is capable of raising a loving family until we have reason to believe otherwise.
I'm sorry, why should that be the default? You can't just assert it to be the default and make it so.
That’s nonsense because there’s no indication of causation.
You do realize that there is almost never proof of causation in these types of studies, right? There are certain fields of study, topics, etc. that we can only study correlations of and must infer causal elements from. This is one of them.
if the anxiety issues were increased after the surgery that could be easily explainable by the way society (lead by folks like yourself) treat the trans community.
And why would we not expect to see a rise in the control group? In the study in question study they are still trans, they are likely presenting as the opposite gender. Why wouldn't we expect to see a rise in anxiety among them based on how society is treating them?
It seems more like you have your pet conclusion and are trying your hardest to interpret everything to support it. I am very doubtful that you actually are open to being wrong at this point.
The default position is that any couple is capable of raising a loving family until we have reason to believe otherwise.
I'm sorry, why should that be the default? You can't just assert it to be the default and make it so.
Lol, there's a screening process for foster parents for a reason. That's the default.
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@Greyparrot
Lol, there's a screening process for foster parents for a reason. That's the default
There's a screening process because the state is taking your children and putting them with someone they're paying to parent them. The state is responsible for the child's health and safety if you put them with someone that beats them or molest them it's the state's fault and they'll get sued.
People with bulimia nine times out of 10 are not happy with themselves they want to stop that behavior. Most trans people are not going in to see the doctor to stop wanting to feel like they want to transition they're going in to go through the transition. If I believe it goes into the doctor and says I love being bulimic how do I keep this up without dying well that would be one thing but that's usually not what happens.
Most trans people are not going in to see the doctor.
Unfortunately, the opposite is true. Most seek medical advice and get really bad advice with long lasting consequences.
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@Polytheist-Witch
People with bulimia nine times out of 10 are not happy with themselves they want to stop that behavior. Most trans people are not going in to see the doctor to stop wanting to feel like they want to transition they're going in to go through the transition.
Why do you think there is a difference in what they seek? Why do you think bulimics seeks help to stop their behavior while people with gender dysphoria seek some sort of affirmation?
It is because of societal pressures and expectations. Society recognizes that you don't affirm the bulimic's self-image, and so when bulimics realize they need help and seek it they will do so with that in mind. Gender dysphoria is different because society tells us that if you have such thoughts that you really are in the wrong body, and so they will seek help with that in mind.
So appealing to this as the argument as to how they are different is absolutely fallacious.
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@TheMorningsStar
I did keep reading, all you did was outline why bulimia had physical health issues and then claimed that gender dysphoria isn't like that (when you have no reason to think so).
Name one thing I said about bulimia that also applies to gender dysphoria.
I asked because I want to know your standards, not so you can make a meaningless reply.
I gave you a meaningless reply because it’s a silly question, and the fact that you are asking me to explain how we determine whether something negatively impacts others should make you think about how silly this is getting.
When I used the phrase “the freedom to swing your arms ends at someone else’s nose” did you understand it? Do you understand what would happen if I swung my arms and it hit your nose, and how that would be negatively impactful to you to the point where I shouldn’t be allowed to do it?
I know it seems silly for me to ask you this, but if this is the level of common sense we are disregarding then it’s a perfectly fair question for me to expect you to have to answer.
Okay, how do you determine if someone is of sound mind?
A sound mind is when someone is connected to reality, making decisions with a full understanding of the consequences and has determined that the outcome of their actions is still preferable to the alternative.
You keep saying that not affirming is wrong and then go on to justify non-affirmation in some instances.
And I’ve explained the differences in those instances. I’m not being inconsistent, you keep pretending it’s all the same when it’s not.
If someone going through affirmation therapy is harmed by non-affirmation then this means that they will always be harmed if you don't change all of society to capitulate.
It’s people like you who are the reason these people have to go through the stigmatization that they do in society, so you don’t get to pretend you’re the one looking out for them by trying to steer them away from making decisions that will expose them to that stigmatization.
Not really, have you ever heard of a modus tollens? If X then Y, not Y therefore not X? It is proper logic. Sometimes an absence of evidence can be evidence of absence.
Yes, but your premise is absurd.
If X then Y - in other words if homosexual households were just as capable of producing a healthy environment to raise children (X), then there would be studies saying so (Y). In other words, the burden is on the scientific community to prove your unsupported claims wrong. That’s not how logic works. And as far as why it doesn’t…
The default position is that any couple is capable of raising a loving family until we have reason to believe otherwise.I'm sorry, why should that be the default? You can't just assert it to be the default and make it so.
Because the alternative is to presume no couple is capable of raising a loving family until and unless they prove themselves otherwise. That position would require every prospective parent in our society to have to pass some kind of clearance test before being allowed to have children. Is that your idea of how a society should function?
It seems more like you have your pet conclusion and are trying your hardest to interpret everything to support it. I am very doubtful that you actually are open to being wrong at this point.
First of all, if you actually paid attention to my point I said there is an alternate way to look at it. I never declared that to be the answer.
Second and more importantly, this comment demonstrates a remarkable lack of self awareness as well as projection. I am not the one who came on here declaring to have answers to what these studies show, you were . Yet you want to sit here and tell me I’m the one who’s biased because I’m drawing conclusions from studies that are inconclusive when all I’ve done here is responded to your points about them and why they don’t stand up to scrutiny. Look in the mirror before criticizing others.
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@Greyparrot
Lol, there's a screening process for foster parents for a reason. That's the default.
Yes, there’s a process to ensure the prospective foster parents provide a healthy stable household. What we’re actually talking about is how we go about doing that, or more specifically what role someone’s genitalia history should play in it.
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@TheMorningsStar
People have been transitioning for longer than transitioning has been acceptable by society. Or at least more tolerated by society. So this transitioning people go in and want to transition cuz society tells them to is bull crap, nobody was telling them to in the seventies, nobody was telling him to in the 60s and nobody was telling him to before that.
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@Polytheist-Witch
And transitioning was not as common back then, but you have to realize that the move to pro-affirmation was already decently prominent within the academic field at the time and as such people would still be recommended such treatments. There were less that went along with it as the social pressures were different. You keep trying to look at things in such a narrow lens.
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@zedvictor4
One does not choose to be transgender either.
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@secularmerlin
Yes they do. Unlike being gay or lesbian etc, being trans involves active decisions and actions.
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@RationalMadman
No one chooses to identify as a different gendered than they were assigned at birth than you chose to identify as being the gender you were assigned at birth. It is easy to feel like you have a choice when your preferences are by coincidence aligned with societal norms.
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@secularmerlin
Yes, they do.
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@secularmerlin
Let me explain the direct decision aspect.
A feminine man is not a woman. A masculine woman is not a man.
The choice made to transition and all verbal (he becomes they or she) and vice versa involved with trans is down to the individual's active choices and demands even.
The choice to get aroused by things one isn't aroused by and to not be aroused by things one is is outside of active decision, the only choice is how one acts on those urges.
I ask to you how a trans person doesn't choose and doesn't make active decisions. Please elaborate.
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@RationalMadman
My guess is that they are making the leap from gender dysphoria to being trans, treating them as the same thing when they are not.
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@secularmerlin
As RM says.
Trans is definitely a choice, based upon acquired knowledge.
Whether or not associated dysphoria isn't a choice based upon acquired knowledge, is the real issue.
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@RationalMadman
Neither a feminine man nor a masculine woman is a trans person and they cannot become one through choice.