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@secularmerlin
They literally can/do, they become a trans woman or trans man respectively, if they choose to transition.
Who here says that men can have babies?
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@zedvictor4
I'm surprised at you. One does not choose the gender they are assigned at birth and so they have no control over whether or not they agree with that decision.
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@RationalMadman
They literally can/do, they become a trans woman or trans man respectively, if they choose to transition.
No physical transition is necessary for someone to come to the realization that their personal identity does not match the gender they were assigned and since they did not choose which gender to be assigned it is by extension not under their control whether they will have to transition or not in order to be correctly gendered by others.
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@secularmerlin
You are saying some do less or more than others prior to demanding that people use their preferred pronouns and change their gender on legal/official documentation.
You are, however, ignoring the decision and action of said demand.
I also am perplexed at your stance. You start off saying you realise they do not conform to the social norms of their birth-assigned sex's gender and then deny they take action to end up as either genderfluid or transitioned into the other gender.
You are actually taking the most extreme case of someone who looks and acts totally masculine and is male-sexed but demands we use she/her pronouns (or vice versa) to strawman my side of the discussion/debate. Most will take actions to appear and behave as their preferred gender.
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@RationalMadman
You are saying some do less or more than others prior to demanding that people use their preferred pronouns
I'm saying that you are already making a number of assumptions just in this opening line.
No one has to do anything to realize that they are in fact not comfortable living as the gender they were assigned at birth and the pronouns used by others, while it would be polite to use their pronouns and while it is strictly speaking inaccurate not to, has nothing to do with this internal state.
One does not decide to be trans they realize that they are.
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@secularmerlin
I made absolutely zero assumptions.
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@secularmerlin
No one has to do anything to realize that they are in fact not comfortable living as the gender they were assigned at birth and the pronouns used by others,
They have to do something for others to know it and react to it. That is the difference between a femboy/sissy fetish, being a recreational drag queen and a consistent trans woman identity.
while it would be polite to use their pronouns and while it is strictly speaking inaccurate not to, has nothing to do with this internal state.
It has everything to do with it. In fact I agree that the internal state means nothing towards that unless the person acts and makes externally, verbally clear that their internal state is that way.
Yes they do. Unlike being gay or lesbian etc, being trans involves active decisions and actions
That is complete b******* you can be gay or lesbian and never act on it you can be trans and never transition but you don't choose either one. If you're able to choose to be trans you could tomorrow decide you want to be a woman and go get your dick cut off which you won't do because you're never going to just decide to be trans it's something that's innate that makes you feel like you're not the sex you are.
People do understand that girls being a tomboy and boys dressing in drag or transvestiteism is not trans. Trans is actually being uncomfortable with the sex you were born with. Guys and drag are not trans girls in jeans are not trans and you people know the difference in your confusing and integrating the differences on purpose.
They have to do something for others to know it and react to it.
While this is true your reaction is not what makes a person trans. It is entirely an internal matter. The truth is that this internal state is no one else's buisness. No one can make you trans by treating you as though you are a trans person and I imagine you would find it a little offensive. The reverse is also reasonable to regard as true. Even if gender were a choice you could not change someone else's gender for them. You could at best punish them for not conforming to social norms.
the internal state means nothing towards that unless the person acts and makes externally, verbally clear that their internal state is that way.
Please explain why anyone needs your recognition in order to be a trans person? You are talking about "passing" which is a seperate issue. In fact much transphobia ends up being directed towards cis people who have traits that are ordinarily associated with the opposite gender. A masculine cis woman or a pre trans mTf trans are far more likely to be reported as a "man in the bathroom" than many fTm trans people who are able to "pass".
I just have two words to debunk all of that
Gender fluid.
Gay people are not "fluid"
It is set in stone how their brain chemistry reacts to stimuli. It's the same reaction every time and never changes.
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@secularmerlin
I'm surprised at you. Paedophiles do not choose their sexuality as assigned at birth, so they have no control over whether or not they agree with that decision.
Exactly the same argument based upon supposition relative to social and political acceptability.
Though most people would disagree, simple relative to current social and political acceptability.
None of which, in any way alters the fact that to transition is a choice between transitioning or not.
And I could soon compile an extensive list of similarly controversial examples, whereby one could absolve people of their social sins, simply by applying your emotive argument.....They were born like that, therefore it was not their decision.
No one chooses to be born.....One just has to live with it, commit suicide, or wreak vengeance upon ones parents........Choices Choices Choices.
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@Polytheist-Witch
can be trans and never transition
No, you cannot.
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@zedvictor4
Comparing trans people to pedophiles is clearly damaging no matter how well intentioned. Protect the children has oft been the rallying cry of the intolerant.
When I discuss a trans person I am not discussing only those who have resorted to surgery or even all of those who have come out. No one chooses to feel as though they were assigned the wrong gender at birth and how the person decides to cope with it (choice is a bit of a loaded word when you don't believe in freewill) it is still a fact of their lives.
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@RationalMadman
Yes you can. You can decide that you're a woman and never have the surgeries you can just take the medications or you can live like a woman. It has nothing to do with the surgery there are plenty of trans people who never have a surgery of any kind they do take hormones and they live as the opposite sex they were born.
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@secularmerlin
I wasn't comparing them at all....That was just a plea to the emotions on your part.
I was just pointing out how we selectively apply moral principles in order to either justify or vilify.