Who here says that men can have babies?

Author: n8nrgmi

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#31
zedvictor4
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@RationalMadman
Very heart warming I'm sure.

But not comparable.

I was suggesting that it is very unlikely that a hearing person would choose to be deaf.

Not the same as a deaf person refusing surgery.
#32
Double_R
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@Greyparrot
You people love proving my point

How it it empathetic to indulge in a fat person's delusions about their health?
We’re not talking about fat people, first of all.

Second and more importantly, delusional is when a person is convinced and lives their life in accordance with something that is objectively not true. In order to determine whether something qualifies as a delusion, you need to begin with the belief they hold in order to compare it to reality.

There is no belief to assess here, because we’re not talking about a matter of biology or anything empirical verifiable. We’re talking about a feeling that has lead to a life long struggle, and what a person is supposed to do about it.

Why can’t you get the most basic fact regarding what we’re talking about right?

Is that how we should treat 40% of trans suicide attempts? If this is empathy, I want no part of it.
You are more than a part of it, you are the problem. Ask any trans individual who has contemplated suicide why they would think about such a thing; the answer is because of people like you who pretend they are inherently delusional who should be treated like bulimics and schizophrenics in order to save them from their own delusions.

If I was made to believe that this is all I was in the world until it became baked into my self image I might contemplate suicide too.

#33
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@Double_R
If I was made to believe that this is all I was in the world until it became baked into my self image I might contemplate suicide too.
There are multiple studies showing people without dysphoria being bullied at much higher rates and intensity; and although elevated, have nowhere near the 40% suicide rates of mentally ill people.  Most trans today are actually more likely to commit suicide the deeper into the delusion they are allowed to live in, as suicide almost always occurs alone when a person is forced to deal with their reality; and when the gap between their delusion and reality is so wide, cognitive dissonance can't operate. It's well known that suicide often occurs when there is no relief from the maddening dissonance. 
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#34
n8nrgmi
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@Double_R
I agree that conservatives make identity politics a distraction but so do liberals. Some liberals media actually insist men can sometimes have babies. Instead of finding a distraction argument that supports a partisan agenda like u r doin u should join me in concluding that it's stupid to insist men can have babies. I never said we shouldn't refer to them as their preferred pronoun so u have no reason to make that the issue. It's OK for u to criticize liberals sometimes too. I always vote dems to Congress but I can still criticize liberals too
#35
TheMorningsStar
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@Double_R
 the fact that people like yourself keep pretending as if they don’t 
Nice try, but I actually have gender dysphoria. I know exactly how they feel. The solution isn't to tell people their self-perception is valid, it is to do what I did, go through non-affirming therapies (which, guess what, essentially every other body dysphoria does just that).

The demonstration of your lack of empathy is that you can’t even get the basic facts right regarding we’re talking about.
Greyparrot is right on this, it isn't unempathetic to tell fat people they aren't healthy, so to should it not be the case to not indulge in this gender-affirming ideology.

I think, however, that this discussion with you is a waste of time. You got so emotional so fast that it is clear already you won't be addressing this discussion rationally but instead by overly emotional in it. It isn't worth my time to argue with someone I know is too emotional about an issue to ever change their minds.
#36
Polytheist-Witch
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@Greyparrot
Again you don't have to say anything to anybody about anything they're doing you're the one that feels like you need to inflict your opinion on someone else's life.
#37
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@TheMorningsStar
Greyparrot is right on this, it isn't unempathetic to tell fat people they aren't healthy, so to should it not be the case to not indulge in this gender-affirming ideology.
Again why do you feel like you have to tell anybody your opinion on their life. They don't give a f*** what you think for a reason.
#38
Greyparrot
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@Polytheist-Witch
Having an opinion does NOT mean "inflicting an opinion"

You want to be fat and die at 43? That's fine. You wanna be trans and roll the dice with 40% suicide rate? sure.

Just don't force me to lie about what's going on. You get your opinions, and I get mine. No censorship necessary.
No shaming necessary, no social credit necessary.
#39
ebuc
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@zedvictor4
Some people are born deaf, or blind..
Some women are born without a uterus/womb, as is the case with some intersex/hermaprodites's.

To date, not womb implants, into a woman, have occurred or if they did, not successful. To best of my knowledge.

If an intersex person is born with a womb, I would consider them to be a womb-an/woman.

IF and intersex person is born without a womb, they may still have more biologic charascteristics that make them more likened to a woman than a man. If not, then, perhaps they are more likened to a man. It is complicated issue for sure. Ive only barely skimmed the issue.

B. Fuller states in Synergetics, that, men are pushers and women are attracters.  Pulling inward{ contraction } is path of least resistance and leads to all pushing-outward{ radiating }. Ex the muscles of womb/uterus contract, and the fetus/baby is pushed out. Gravity forms sun and sun radiates photons.

Gravity leads to low entropy?

Radiation leads to high entropy? I have Penrose video on this.

#40
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@Polytheist-Witch
Again why do you feel like you have to tell anybody your opinion on their life. They don't give a f*** what you think for a reason.
We exist as a society and looking out for the well being of the members of society is a good thing, thus challenging people when they make bad decisions is not wrong. Sure, they have the right to live that way if they want, but that is on them.
The main issue is that it doesn't end there. The trans right movement is trying to change reality to fit their desires, from changing language to denial of sexual dimorphism (trans women is sports), etc. They also constantly argue that children should be educated based on their bad ideas, that anything non-affirming is bigoted (even saying non-affirming therapies should be banned), etc.
I don't often push back on people that choose to be fat as those issues don't exist on any prominent level when it comes to fat people (though, it is a growing movement to try and do much the same thing), but when it comes to trans issues those are impossible to avoid at this point.
#41
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@TheMorningsStar
The only shaming going on  today is one way from the woke left pushing an unsustainable agenda. I'm tired of being shamed for pointing out basic biology, science, and common sense.
#42
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@TheMorningsStar
"Fat" has evolved from an unnecessity to do anything.

And Trans-Sexuality has evolved from an unsubstantiated sequence of events.......All arguments are pertinent, even if one doesn't like the other persons argument.


#43
Double_R
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@Greyparrot
There are multiple studies showing people without dysphoriabeing bullied at…
Blah blah blah. This was the least important part of my post which was just added in at the end. Do you have any response to the actual substance of the discussion?
#44
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@n8nrgmi
Instead of finding a distraction argument that supports a partisan agenda like u r doin u should join me in concluding that it's stupid to insist men can have babies. 
The point I just made was about how this is a strawman framing of the left which is what makes this conversation so ridiculous, and your response is that I’m supposed to join you in it? That’s like me starting a thread about how the political right are all ok with the Holocaust and expecting you to respond to it by joining me is saying  “yeah Holocaust was bad” instead of pointing out how my premise is absurd.

No one serious is claiming men can have babies. This is again, a dumb thing to focus on.
#45
cristo71
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@TheMorningsStar
They also constantly argue that children should be educated based on their bad ideas, that anything non-affirming is bigoted (even saying non-affirming therapies should be banned), etc.
I agree. A line is crossed when it goes from teaching impressionable children tolerance and mutual respect to teaching such as not just normal but common, perhaps even preferable in certain circumstances— as if to imply “if you are at all confused by your body/gender (and who doesn’t experience an iota of such confusion) going trans may be preferable. Look at all the positive attention, the accolades, the automatic respect we confer on such a choice.”


#46
Double_R
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@TheMorningsStar
Greyparrot is right on this, it isn't unempathetic to tell fat people they aren't healthy, so to should it not be the case to not indulge in this gender-affirming ideology.
Whether a fat person, or any person meets the qualifications of being unhealthy is a matter of empirical verifiable fact, so this analogy is useless.

I’m glad for you that therapy worked for your dysphoria. That doesn’t mean everyone who goes through this is just like you. Again, we’re not talking about someone two burgers away from a heart attack being told they’re just fine. If someone feels so strongly that their body is not right for them that they decide to cut off their dick, your lack of affirmation is not going to help them nor anyone else one bit, but you act as if you’re doing them a favor. It’s absurd.

I think, however, that this discussion with you is a waste of time. You got so emotional so fast that it is clear already you won't be addressing this discussion rationally but instead by overly emotional in it. It isn't worth my time to argue with someone I know is too emotional about an issue to ever change their minds.
If you’re going to respond to what I have to say then do so. If you’re not then don’t. But spare me your condescension. My response wasn’t “emotional”. It was proportional to the absurdity implied within your post.

As I just implied above, the issue I have with those arguing your side of this is that you act as if you’re looking out for these people’s best interest while being the central cause of the fear and anxiety these people face at the prospect of living in this world. That’s worthy of the kind of responses I have given. You don’t need to change my mind on the issue, you could just make sense out of your position to show that you have a coherent view here.
#47
Double_R
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@Greyparrot
You want to be fat and die at 43? That's fine. You wanna be trans and roll the dice with 40% suicide rate? sure.
Has it ever occurred to you that the issues eventually leading to their suicide were there before they went trans, or do you actually believe they were just fine before deciding to completely alter their body?
#48
thett3
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@Double_R
 If someone feels so strongly that their body is not right for them that they decide to cut off their dick, your lack of affirmation is not going to help them nor anyone else one bit, but you act as if you’re doing them a favor. It’s absurd.
Well if not affirming them leads to them not cutting off their dick and becoming comfortable in their body you are doing them a kindness actually. Thats TheMorningStars point. Everything is geared towards “affirming” the dysmorphia because people want to be nice and thinks that it helps but it could well be the opposite.  
#49
Polytheist-Witch
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You do know that trans people don't just walk into a hospital and say cut my dick off. Transtherapy is something anybody going through trans surgery has to do. And trans therapy even occurs way before the surgery and way before the hormones are started which are also started before the surgery. If the person even goes so far to have the surgery in some cases the therapy and the hormones and just getting breasts is enough. Women trying to be men as far as I know can't even have the surgery to have a penis put on so they basically use fake equipment. The point is is that if you've been told your whole life that what you think of yourself is wrong or perverted or unhealthy or you're going to kill yourself because of it then there's a good chance as you go through the therapies and stuff those issues are not resolved and when the surgery doesn't make you feel better because all that other b*******'s been put on top of it then yes you are going to be suicidal even after that. We are talking about human beings so uncomfortable in their own skin they want to mutilate their sex organs. And your response that is well I don't really care I don't understand it so f*** them. And unless you are in a relationship with someone you have no right to comment on their goddamn weight I don't know who you people think you are. Not to mention that both of these are about medical issues that also might have some psychological issues attached. Nobody walks up to a woman that says hey have you ever had an abortion cuz it causes depression it could lead you to suicide but they have no problem saying to a woman look at your fat ass. You have no problem looking at someone who's trying to transition because they're finally starting to feel okay with their body instead of them look at you you're a sick pervert and I don't feel like I should support this. And then you wonder why people kill themselves.
#50
TheMorningsStar
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@cristo71
“if you are at all confused by your body/gender (and who doesn’t experience an iota of such confusion) going trans may be preferable. Look at all the positive attention, the accolades, the automatic respect we confer on such a choice.”
It is very much this.
We know from older studies that the majority of children that thought they were trans would desist, they would 'grow out of it' and go on to live happy lives (often times they ended up actually just being gay).
We also know from recent studies that children that are pushed into going through affirmative-therapies almost never desist. This indicates a real problem. Children are confused and that confusion is being taken advantage of.
#51
Greyparrot
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@TheMorningsStar
It's not just the accolades for indulging in delusions, the public shaming for not doing so really needs to stop.
#52
TheMorningsStar
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@Double_R
Whether a fat person, or any person meets the qualifications of being unhealthy is a matter of empirical verifiable fact, so this analogy is useless.
And you are treating being physically unhealthy as being unhealthy while not doing the same in regards to mental health. This is what is absurd. We know that many studies in regards to affirmation therapies and treatments are flawed because they lack proper control groups, and we see when control groups are offered that they aren't working.

Let's go to reassignment surgeries as a quick example (as I have that information more readily available).

Not long ago there was a large Swedish study on the mental health benefits of getting surgery, one of the largest out there. You probably heard news reporting on it as it went viral claiming that surgeries were beneficial... the correction to that study was basically not picked up by the media at all.
It was called out and a correction had to be offered.
Why? Because it didn't bother to use its readily available control group.

Turns out that those that didn't get surgery had the same exact trend, which caused them to have to say in the correction that there was no advantage of getting surgery.

It actually gets worse, however. Let's look at more data that only came out once the author was called out (that they themselves then published),
Who had signs of any sort of mood disorder?
Those that had surgery: 98
Those without: 88
Who had signs of any sort of anxiety disorder?
Those that had surgery: 85
Those without: 62
Who was on antidepressant treatment of some kind?
Those that had surgery: 301
Those without: 292
Who was on anxiety treatment of some kind?
Those that had surgery: 215
Those without: 149
Who was hospitalized following a suicide attempt?
Those that had surgery: 13
Those without: 7

So, not only did they have to come out with a correction that surgery doesn't give an advantage, they had to also come out and say that it gave rise to greater anxiety.
They also said that the other categories have numbers too close to tell for sure, but I think it is important to note that in every one of those "too close to tell" categories that the surgery category is worse. What that indicates is that either there is only negligible difference in those categories (and that coincidentally the surgery category was all on one side) or that surgery also makes it worse (like with anxiety).

So, world famous study that went viral in the news and was used by trans-right activists turns out to have had such a bad methodology that after being called out and corrected shows the exact opposite. This is what happens when you use control groups with these types of studies. Makes you wonder why it is that pretty much every single study around gender-affirmation lacks proper control groups and what the result would be if these studies were actually done properly (especially when every other dysphoria doesn't default to taking the affirming route).

So, if we can see the general trend that doing something will worsen your mental health, why shouldn't we call it out in the same way as things that will worsen your physical health?

#53
TheMorningsStar
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@thett3
Well if not affirming them leads to them not cutting off their dick and becoming comfortable in their body you are doing them a kindness actually. 
Exactly this. You don't affirm people's desires to get as fat as possible because you know that there are serious physical health issues with that, so why should we affirm someone's self-image if there are serious mental health issues to consider?
#54
Double_R
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@thett3
Well if not affirming them leads to them not cutting off their dick and becoming comfortable in their body…
Is this really your idea of how this works?
#55
Double_R
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@TheMorningsStar
^^^
#56
TheMorningsStar
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@Double_R
I think that non-affirming therapies work (did for me). They are used for every non-gender related body dysphoria because they work, and so why think they wouldn't work for gender dysphoria?
I don't think that affirming therapies work, and in the comment before my previous one (combined with points made in other comments of mine) I outline where my skepticism comes from.

As such, I hold that affirmation leads to worse mental health outcomes, and thus we should not affirm. The more society changes to pro-affirmation the more that people will go through affirmation therapies instead (or it could lead to what some trans-rights activists want, for bans on non-affirming therapies), and this will be worse for people.

As such we need to push back on the pro-affirmation view.

I also think that a lot around the pro-affirmation view involves denial of reality (again, the sports debate), and I think that promotion of any view that includes reality denial on any level is inherently dangerous.
#57
thett3
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@Double_R
Yes that is my idea of how it works. What’s so inconceivable about it? 
#58
thett3
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@TheMorningsStar

As such we need to push back on the pro-affirmation view.

I also think that a lot around the pro-affirmation view involves denial of reality (again, the sports debate), and I think that promotion of any view that includes reality denial on any level is inherently dangerous.
I agree with everything you said but would just like to add that the biggest problem is the gigantic increase we now see among the young, where 1 in 50 now say that they are trans. There has always been a background rate of gender dysphoria, mostly in men, of around 0.1-0.5% and a lot of them historically try to present as women as adults. They’ll never be women but I would agree it would be rude to rub that in their face and insist on calling them a name or pronouns that distresses them, even if ideally they would come to terms with their body as it is. 

But…it’s absolutely skyrocketed, especially among teenaged girls who are being encouraged to take medical interventions and the long term impacts aren’t very promising. That’s the real issue here. It’s just sick, and I don’t see how anyone can see surgical interventions on teenagers and blocking puberty and everything as not a problem 
#59
Greyparrot
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@TheMorningsStar
I think that promotion of any view that includes reality denial on any level is inherently dangerous.
Hear hear.
#60
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@thett3
Yes, rapid onset gender dysphoria. It is especially bad because when people go through the gender affirming therapies today they almost never desist (in comparison to the vast majority that desist otherwise, as shown in older studies).

So, not only are more people starting to call themselves trans (which I think is due not to legitimate mental health distress), but they are now less likely than ever to doubt that they are trans and will try to live a 'gender-affirming' life.

 It’s just sick, and I don’t see how anyone can see surgical interventions on teenagers and blocking puberty and everything as not a problem 
Not just on teenagers but in general (look at my comment #52), but it becomes even worse when teens are involved.