Who here says that men can have babies?

Author: n8nrgmi

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#1
n8nrgmi
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I think think it's a biological fact that men can't have babies, but I respect opposition too much to say it's a sociological fact. To the generic idea that men can have babies, I think liberals twist themselves into all kinds of positions that they're forced to conclude something as silly as that

This site doesn't get as much into identity politics
#2
Nyxified
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@n8nrgmi
Trans men can have children because they have reproductive organs and this fact does not negate the fact they are men.

If you don't think trans men are men, that's a different debate entirely, but it's one I'd be happy to have.
#3
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@n8nrgmi
I think think it's a biological fact that men can't have babies
Correct.

 but I respect opposition too much to say it's a sociological fact
I mean, sociology is a  politically biased field that completely lacks objectivity at the moment, and so I would say that we should be skeptical on anything deemed a 'sociological fact'.
#4
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@Nyxified
You know the debate I want to have and you cowered out of. It can stay as a point of conflict between hmus or you can finally join me in supporting they/them genderfluids who are not mentally ill while wanting to treat dysphoria, which is a severe mental disorder bordering involving the delusion that to surpass heteronormative gender roles, one needs to use artificial hormones, wigs, plastic surgery and such to mimic the sex, not the gender, attached to that role by the heteronormative society.
#5
zedvictor4
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@Nyxified
Trans men are women that think that they are men....Fine.

The big difference between the fundamental reality of physiology and the machinations of post natal psychology and modern medical and surgical intervention.

The reality is that a trans man will always be a trans man, rather than a naturally constructed sperm producer.

What it might say in a dictionary nowadays is simply what it might say in a dictionary nowadays.


And just for the record, I have absolutely no issues with the Trans concept, and the courses of action that some people are determined to follow...As one cannot argue that this behaviour in itself, does not possess it's own realism.

But I will not be brow beaten into disregarding the fundamental reality of the human species.......Egg producer....Sperm producer.

Developmental anomalies relating to gender, are what they are.....But are not the same as post natal transitioning based upon choice.


No debate necessary.
#6
Stephen
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@zedvictor4
Egg producer....Sperm producer.

✓


No debate necessary.

✓


I will not be brow beaten into disregarding the fundamental reality of the human species

✓
#7
ILikePie5
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Checkmate liberal
#8
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@n8nrgmi
Please define man as you are using the word in this context. 
#9
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@zedvictor4
Is production of sperm what makes you a "real" man? If so then what about cis males who are infertile? Are they men or women or neither?
#10
Polytheist-Witch
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Men can't carry and give birth to babies. They can be fathers. They have children. 
#11
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@secularmerlin
All accounted for in my previous statement, if you care to read it thoroughly.

Cis males who are infertile, is quite self explanatory.

As is a female, that thinks she is male.

Developmental anomaly as opposed to an afterthought.

Though everything is real within a context....And therefore real by association.

So even if my understanding of basic factual reality may seem somewhat conservative, I am nonetheless fully supportive of personal freedom to choose.

Most of the guff that gets inserted into the dictionary and reference books these days, is simply justification for what is still a taboo issue. 

Justification to the point of extremism, one might add.
#12
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@zedvictor4
As is a female, that thinks she is male.
This is not I believe the state of a trans man. I believe that if you asked them their stance (which I highly encourage you to do rather than simply imagining what it might be for yourself) you will find that many view sex as separate from gender.
I am nonetheless fully supportive of personal freedom to choose.
Your argument, even if well intentioned and factually accurate (if it is in fact either), is both beside the point and damaging to the personal freedom of choice that you say you support. 
#13
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@secularmerlin
Not at all...My point is mine and mine alone, derived at internally....Everyone else makes their own points in the same way. To feign hurtfulness is just an emotive side tracking of the realistic debate.....People can choose and I wish them well.


And the old new gender sex semantics thing, I don't see as relevant.....Once again, it just seeks to side track the realistic argument.


A Trans man is a female that thinks they are male....I am fully accepting of this.....But they are  what they are nonetheless


And in terms of realism, I am referring to constructional realism as opposed to applied realism.

I am not suggesting that I doubt the on the spot reality and integrity of the Trans situation.
#14
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@n8nrgmi
I think think it's a biological fact that men can't have babies, but I respect opposition too much to say it's a sociological fact. To the generic idea that men can have babies, I think liberals twist themselves into all kinds of positions that they're forced to conclude something as silly as that
The right wing tendency to find the stupidest things to strawman and then hyper focus on never ceases to amaze me.

The actual “debate” we’re having is about the line between respecting your fellow citizens right to a dignified existence vs writing them off as crazy and demented. It’s not hard to look at a transwoman, recognize the struggle this individual has endured that made them cut off their body parts and live in a way that was entirely unnatural and say ok, I’ll refer to you as a “she”. Doing that means you’re not an asshole, it doesn’t mean you don’t know what chromosomes are or think that men can give birth.
#15
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@zedvictor4
Unfortunately you don't have to be trying to hurt someone to hurt them and you don't have to be trying to give bigots ammunition for you to hand them some unintentionally.

When you conflate biological sex wwith the social construct of gender that is exactly what you are doing.
#16
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@secularmerlin
Social construct of gender....You said it.

Biological sex.....You said it.

So firstly.........Neither you nor I has conflated the issues.

And secondly......... I prefer to refer to it as constructional rather than biological.......Biological has other more complex implications.....Whereas constructional is that which is presented at birth.




And I don't try to hurt people, people hurt themselves.....It's the old offender, offence, offended argument.

And bigots don't need ammunition....They're already well armed.
#17
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@zedvictor4
Imagine a baby with only female chromosomes but which is born with a penis. 

Is this a female boy or a girl with a penis?

This is not by any means a hypothetical situation either. Babies are sometimes born who match this description.
#18
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@Double_R
But is the empathetic thing to do to participate in one's self-perception in such a manner? Do we tell the schizophrenic person that there really are voices or do we show empathy by understanding the struggle and yet still not participating in it? We aren't being unempathetic to tell them that "No, you aren't a man/woman" just as we aren't being unempathetic when we say "No, you aren't fat" to someone suffering from bulimia.
#19
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@TheMorningsStar
Being bulimic can be deadly. Acting on negative voices inside your head when schizophrenic can lead to the hurt others or yourself. If someone has felt since they were very young that they are a different gender than what their body is it's traumatic for them I'm sure. Them wanting to alter their hormones in their body to suit the gender they feel they are doesn't hurt anybody else. And it obviously gives the person going through the transition a piece of mind that did not previously have. So if you excuse me I do not accept the examples you've given in comparison with someone going through gender transition.
#20
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@Polytheist-Witch
Them wanting to alter their hormones in their body to suit the gender they feel they are doesn't hurt anybody else.
But the question is if it hurts themselves, like how people with bulimia hurt themselves. Sure, bulimia might have obvious physical side effects, but gender dysphoria has very real psychological ones, enough so that the suicide rate is staggering. It is also questionable on if affirming therapies are even helpful, as the overwhelming majority lack control groups and those that do have even an attempt at one shows affirming care/treatments are not necessarily effecting (I readily have available for discussion reassignment surgeries for discussion as I had that debate the other day on a different website).
#21
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@TheMorningsStar
Please define man/woman in the context in which you are using them.
#22
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@TheMorningsStar
But is the empathetic thing to do to participate in one's self-perception in such a manner? Do we tell the schizophrenic person that there really are voices or do we show empathy by understanding the struggle and yet still not participating in it? We aren't being unempathetic to tell them that "No, you aren't a man/woman" just as we aren't being unempathetic when we say "No, you aren't fat" to someone suffering from bulimia.
Trans people are well aware of how their biology differs from that of any heterosexual cisgender, the fact that people like yourself keep pretending as if they don’t is what makes this conversation so ridiculous and the fact that your idea of an analogous example includes schizophrenia and bulimia proves my point.

The demonstration of your lack of empathy is that you can’t even get the basic facts right regarding we’re talking about.
#23
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The demonstration of your lack of empathy is that you can’t even get the basic facts right regarding we’re talking about.
How it it empathetic to indulge in a fat person's delusions about their health?

It's empathetic to say, hay! believe you are okay in your own mind, because a shortened lifespan doesn't matter if you feel happy?

Is that how we should treat drug addicts? Is that how we should treat 40% of trans suicide attempts? If this is empathy, I want no part of it.

Fat, dumb and happy should be a meme, not a philosophy for a progressive human society.

#24
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@Greyparrot
Considering you're one of those people that doesn't want anyone to tell you how to live you seem to have no problem wanting to tell others how to live. There are plenty of fat people who are not on any kind of medication, they don't have high blood pressure, they don't have diabetes, they don't have cholesterol issues, they're honestly just fat. And if they're okay with that f**k what anyone else thinks about it. If you're not having sex with someone you really don't get to comment on their body.
#25
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@Polytheist-Witch
Considering you're one of those people that doesn't want anyone to tell you how to live you seem to have no problem wanting to tell others how to live.
That's not at all what's going on here. These people are desperately seeking validation, and society is urging people to lie to them in order to gratify them, regardless of the inevitable loss of life and loss of quality of life.

It's the deliberate deception that I take issue with. Deceptions involving sex are another thing altogether though.

There's a middle ground everyone can live with between the false gratification that leads to death and Chinese social credit.

That middle ground allows anyone to have an opinion on what a person in a dress with an adam's apple is without being publicly shamed for it.
#26
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@Greyparrot
Says the guy who wants to publicly shame people
#27
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@Polytheist-Witch
I'm not shaming anybody. You want to be fat and die at 43? That's fine. You wanna be trans and roll the dice with 40% suicide rate? sure.

Just don't force me to lie about what's going on.
#28
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@secularmerlin
Of course developmental anomalies occur.

I have addressed this issue many times.

Some people are born deaf, or blind.....But this is not the same as choosing to be deaf or blind.......I think that we would regard this as foolish behaviour.



#29
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@zedvictor4
Actually a hero in Britain, the strictly come dancing girl opts to remain deaf and have no operation to hear in a permanent sense, she does use her implants now and again but she actually danced deaf to my knowledge.
#30
FLRW
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@n8nrgmi

Does anybody know why God used 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms to make 1 human?

This could be a big problem for quality control.