If god is real, god is amoral.

Author: RationalMadman
Morality
Philosophy
theism
theology
deism

Posts

Total: 255
#61
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,973
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
-->
@TheMorningsStar
@CoolApe
Morality seen in most animals might be instincts, not morals. 

An argument can be made that chimpanzees and monkeys do make conscious moral decisions.
You could say that about humans. Let’s move away from primates because it will just get boring. 

An example could be when a cat saves a human infant from falling off an edge, or when a human feeds a starving kitten. 
It’s “instincts” either way. Morals are you just being aware of your feelings, regardless of how limited your capacity is to fully understand underlying mechanics.

I think morals are based on feelings, but you must be consciously aware that your making moral value judgments to be a moral agent.

As "MorningStar" pointed out dinosaurs don't have concepts of good and evil. Therefore, they are not moral agents.
Saying dinosaurs don’t have the concept of good and bad is preposterous to me. You guys are making too wide a brush to make that claim.  

Want to limit it to birds, or to specific birds? 

I think the science for determining if animals have morals is shaky at best because we're applying a human concept to animals and expecting them to base decisions along those lines.
You don’t think animals have positive and negative experiences? If not, there is no footing to start from. 
#62
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Reece101
You don’t think animals have positive and negative experiences? If not, there is no footing to start from.


What does that have to do with morals? 
#63
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,973
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
What does that have to do with morals? 
It’s a basis for decision making regardless of being human, morals included. 
#64
Tradesecret
Tradesecret's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 3,436
3
2
6
Tradesecret's avatar
Tradesecret
3
2
6
-->
@Double_R
If God is the all knowing all powerful creator of everything then everything that happens is in accordance with his will. This means every child rape, every malicious murder, everything, is in accordance with his will. That makes him amoral by any reasonable standard.
You are confusing God's will - with what happens.  Both are not the same.  God has a revealed will and a hidden will. 

For instance God in the 10 commandments reveals that no one should worship any other God except him.   This is his revealed will. There can be no question about it. It is in black and white.  And yet some people do worship other gods.  The fact that some people worship other gods is NOT God's will.  When we talk about God's will being  done. We are not talking about a fatalistic thing taking place.  We are talking about people obeying God's revealed will. 

Yet you might add - but everything that happens is because God brought it to pass.   Isn't that God's will? I would say no.   Again, we are talking at cross purposes - using the same word - for two different things that are going on.  God's revealed moral will is very clear.  God does not will that anyone sin.  God does not will that child rape or malicious murder takes place. These things are NOT in accord with his revealed moral will. 

To confuse the two, or to conflate the two is unhelpful in this discussion.   It also sets up a strawman argument.  
#65
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Reece101
It doesn't translate like that in animals. Nobody calls animals immoral. If anything your confusing morals with instinct or gut reaction.
#66
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,973
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
In everyday life we don’t call each other immoral or moral. We say that’s good or bad. We apply the same sentiment to animals. Anyway, just because we don’t apply a word to something, doesn’t mean it isn’t applicable. Regardless, this has little to do with whether a high functioning animal understands that it feels good to share, or that it would feel bad to hurt another member. 
#67
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Reece101
I don't know anyone that calls animals good or bad unless they're discussing a family pet that isn't responding to training. Nobody sits around thinking about oh rabbits are bad cuz they don't want foxes to eat them or foxes are bad because they eat rabbits we call that nature we call that instinct. I really think you're confusing morals with instinct they are nowhere near the same thing.
#68
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,973
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
Okay let’s go step by step.

Does morality have a basis in instinct? Yes nor no. 






#69
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Reece101
Pretty much have said I do not  think it does.  You disagree. If you want to break it down feel free to do that but obviously it's a difference of opinion I'm not sure you going through this step by step is really going to matter.
#70
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,973
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
A cat saving a human infant from falling off an edge, you would say is fully instinct, while a human feeding a starving kitten, you would say is fully moral, correct? 

I say there’s an instinctual basis, and we evaluate how we feel.

What if the cat chose not to save the infant, would you also call that instinct? 


#71
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Reece101
Could a cat "choose" not to follow instinct? Is part of the definition of instinct something about acting without making conscious choice?
#72
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,973
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
-->
@rosends
Instinct is innate typical behaviour in response to certain situation, etc.
Yes, animals can have ‘personalities’. 
#73
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
-->
@Reece101
A cat saving a human infant from falling off an edge, you would say is fully instinct, while a human feeding a starving kitten, you would say is fully moral, correct? 
If the cat considers the infant part of its family for lack of a better word than it would view that person as same as a kitten so yes I would call that instinctual. Maybe intelligent but instinctual. I do not necessarily think someone feeding a starving kitten is as much a moral act it's just the act of wanting to relieve suffering which I think is instinctual that might also be moral but I think the act of reducing suffering is instinctual. Perhaps there's an overlap that's more nuanced than I'm giving a credit for. But I don't necessarily think the examples you're given reflect morality explicitly and not some instinct. I think someone gave an example of children being raised by animals if a child was raised by wolves then that child would naturally want to take care of the small wolves in the pack because it's family just like the cat in the above example I don't think that would be morals it would be instinct because animals don't have morals.
#74
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
To humans.  Correct.  

But not to puffins. 

God watchers / and cares for his puffins a lot more then us.  
He does notice the humans that happen to be near puffins. 
Other then that, he couldn't care less about us. 

The proof for this. 

Rebecca  17 : 33.   And the puffins are what we are to serve.  

Tony W   22 : 28.    Everything and everyone  must care for the puffins. 

Eric   55 : 64    and we shall all gazeeth upon ze puffins 
Shall i continue?  


#75
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,597
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
Morality has a biological basis: we use certain parts of our brains in making decisions about right and wrong, some intuitive in nature ("grossness", "massive harm", "me involved in causing massive harm") and some rational calculation (" other people are deserving of being treated with the respect I would like myself", "more people would be hurt by this than helped"). So it exists. The fact you cannot concoct an argument demonstrating by logical proof that your outcome on what is moral is always going to be identical to another person does not change this. People still make moral decisions, feel guilt, apologize, try to make amends, etc. regardless of an Ideal World of perfect answers to moral dilemmas. 
#76
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,071
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Deb-8-a-bull
Yes please go on Oh Deb of the Puffin Folk.

Over hear we pray to the Dinosaur GODDESS of the Puffins, whom we refer to as KATE HUMBLE.


I didn't realise that you were a PUFFINIST too.


Chantelle 36: 24: 36......And he came upon the Puffin and proclaimed unto the Humble one.

Shane 69: 66......Lest the figure hugging Humble of the top range breathable outdoor wear, he shall come upon the Puffin.
#77
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Deb-8-a-bull
To humans.  Correct.  

But not to puffins. 

God watchers / and cares for his puffins a lot more then us.  
He does notice the humans that happen to be near puffins. 
Other then that, he couldn't care less about us. 

The proof for this. 

Rebecca  17 : 33.   And the puffins are what we are to serve.  

Tony W   22 : 28.    Everything and everyone  must care for the puffins. 

Eric   55 : 64    and we shall all gazeeth upon ze puffins 
Shall i continue?  
  
Yes please continue Deb.  But you may have a problem.

There are 4 different Puffin tribes today, Deb   The Atlantic Puffin that  all once worshiped the sea god Poseidon. Poseidon was married to Amphitrite and they had a son of god named Triton. Triton when he came of age pecked to death a Puffin task master which divided the Puffin nation into two tribes. For his crime  Triton was forced into exile to wander the seas for 40 years with his new tribe called the  tribe of the Horned Puffin. They eventually found a place to settle that, unknown to  god Poseidon,  Triton's mother had promised her son. This came to be known as the promised sea.
Over many years Triton had a son of his own named Chrysaor that grew up wondering when it was gong to be his time to rule over the tribe of the Horned Puffin as his father Triton seemed to be living forever he was over 900 years old  at the time and Triton thought his time would never come. So, restless for power  he shouted one day, ' who is with me' there was a war  and thus the  nation of  Horned Puffin was once again divided and they went to live on mount North Pacific

The son of god named his tribe the Nation of  the Tufted Puffin. 

As was usual in the ancient times of the Puffin it became know that Triton god of the  tribe of the Horned Puffin  had a half brother. Amphitrite, Triton's mom had been banging Dionysus  and produced a half brother son of god, who turned up on mount North Pacific the home of  Chrysaor and the nation of Tufted Puffin
 proclaiming to have come to unite all the lost puffin tribes, but lo,  this incursion only served to split the nation of the Tufted Puffin  into yet another puffin tribe named the nation of Rhinoceros Auklet with it's own god.

Do you see your problem Deb?

 







#78
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
-->
@Stephen
That's creative as.  
Wander the seas for 40 years . PUFFIN task masters.   
Gods right hand puffins living up to 900 years old.  Funny stuff. 
Made my day. 

But I do see the problem,    

We've Four puffin denominations. 
Well  ,  Three inter denominational one other
How are we to know the true correct real puffins ? 
It does make things difficult and somewhat of a guessing game. 

Maybe We are kind of lucky he only made four types of puffins.  
 
Imagine if he made like , crap IDK , 
Like lets say 
( 30,000 different types of puffins ) 
And we had to pick the correct one to recive the after life accommodation package 

Picking the correct puffin out of the 30,000 diffrent types of puffins is a bit over the top. 
Surly one couldn't and wouldn't   be at all confident about that. 

















 







 
#79
Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 3,205
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
-->
@zedvictor4
Stephen ruined it. 
He was to good. I can't better that. 

Im a totally puffinist 
Oh and part platypustic.  
Ive been practicing  Paffinisim and performing  platypustics for as long as i can remember.  

Puffin love.   ' gives the hand gestures ' 
#80
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Tradesecret
And yet some people do worship other gods.  The fact that some people worship other gods is NOT God's will.
Let’s go back to the beginning.

God is all powerful.

God is all knowing.

God is the creator of everything.

These three qualities do not allow for anything that happens to be anything other than God’s will. Why?

Because it is logically impossible under this set up for anything to exist without God having created it.

And if God created it and is all knowing, then he created it knowing full well what the results would be as he created it.

And if God is all powerful, then there are no circumstances where anything would have forced his hand to create anything he didn’t desire.

For you to claim that anything he created was not in accordance with his will either violates that he is all knowing or that he is all powerful. This isn’t rocket science. If I bake brownies that turned out to be full of THC, and this was not my desire, then I either did not know what was in them or was somehow pushed by outside forces into creating them that way against my desire. There are no other options.
#81
Polytheist-Witch
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 4,188
3
3
6
Polytheist-Witch's avatar
Polytheist-Witch
3
3
6
What I don't get is if God is the God of the Jews, and he managed to kill everyone but a couple of Jewish people with the flood, where did all the non-jewish people come from and why. And why did he even bother to let that happen or how could it have possibly happened. 
#82
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Deb-8-a-bull
Picking the correct puffin out of the 30,000 diffrent types of puffins is a bit over the top. Surly one couldn't and wouldn't   be at all confident about that. 

And there in lies your problem that I highlighted above, Deb.  Hence I am a atheist Puffinist
#83
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
That is amorality...
No, it isn't. But I'm not going to continue to have this back and forth with you. You affirmed your proposal, and have yet to demonstrate how your conclusion logically extends your premise. Exclaiming, "that is amorality..." does not suffice.

#84
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Double_R
Is it your position that a god could be both moral and amoral at the same time in the same sense?
No. That has nothing to do with my objection. You proposed that your description of God constitutes amorality. Demonstrate how your description of God constitutes amorality.
#85
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,615
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
  

@ the Witch

, where did all the non-jewish people come from and why. 

#77 may go some way to answering your question.

Topic's author
#86
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Athias
LMAO!

Being responsible for the evil people being evil and good people being good while wilfully not intervening after making them knowingly, is amorality.

I am just not sure how the fuck else to tell it to you but sure, you're in the right.
#87
Tarik
Tarik's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 2,481
3
3
5
Tarik's avatar
Tarik
3
3
5
-->
@Double_R
Because it is logically impossible under this set up for anything to exist without God having created it. 
Yes, but one of those things He created happens to be free will, you seem to be forgetting that.
#88
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
LMAO!

Being responsible for the evil people being evil and good people being good while wilfully not intervening after making them knowingly, is amorality.

I am just not sure how the fuck else to tell it to you but sure, you're in the right.
If you lack the capacity to formulate a coherent argument, where you demonstrate that your conclusion logically extends your premise, then that is a knock against you, not me. But again, more emotional displays, not enough rationalizing. So I'll do us both a favor: enjoy the rest of your day, sir.

Topic's author
#89
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Athias
What emotion? Me laughing? You didn't see the logic? Poor you.
#90
rosends
rosends's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 806
3
2
6
rosends's avatar
rosends
3
2
6
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
What I don't get is if God is the God of the Jews, and he managed to kill everyone but a couple of Jewish people with the flood, where did all the non-jewish people come from and why. And why did he even bother to let that happen or how could it have possibly happened. 
A fair question. The way we understand it is that the notion of "Jew" doesn't enter the picture until way later. Noah was a monotheist because he had experience with God. He gets into his boat with his family. A year later, he gets out and gets drunk. Fathers a couple of kids.

Within a generation or two people start saying, "gosh that God guy is awesome...and he made the sun, so the sun is awesome. When we talk stuff about how cool God is, lets not forget the sun!" Soon after, people forget the first part because they can see the sun so they focus on it. Same with the moon and anything else that makes a daily appearance. The things that are effects and results become (in the mind of people who no longer see the cause) as causes themselves and therefore worthy of adoration.

People who need a physical representation of idea then make images that connect them with concepts and forces. Think how quickly people needed a golden calf.

As to why God would let that happen, that is tougher to communicate. That broaches on a conversation of free will and it might be beyond the scope of this thread.