MMA Mafia DP2

Author: Lunatic

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Mharman
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@That2User
Which of RM and Whiteflame is faking their role. I think RM, but I want this test just in case. If it really does result in the spin from Whiteflame that RM fears, we just lynch Whiteflame anyways.
Mharman
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Ik why WF living is implicating, why it makes sense that he's lynched, but why you? 
I am speaking from his perspective to convince him. If I am following his logic, he would want me lynched after we lynch Whiteflame. So I just proposed we lynch me if the plan fails, which pretty much all of town can agree on anyways if the plan does fail. Again, I am just that confident the plan will work.
That2User
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@Mharman
 If it really does result in the spin from Whiteflame that RM fears, we just lynch Whiteflame anyways.
Any possibility WF will be immune to lynching DP3?
I see that as highly unlikely, but a semi good chance WF convinces us to not lynch if he lives in NP2
Mharman
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@That2User
I don't think so. There are so many "what ifs", but not all of them can happen at once. We know there is at least an implied strongman and a ninja; the strongman is implied by Wylted's role while the ninja is implied by Earth's. We don't know if both abilities are stacked on the same scum players or across both. And if Whiteflame is immune to a lynch DP3 regardless, you can still lynch anyone else you suspect of being Whiteflame's teammate, including me.
That2User
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@Mharman
you can still lynch anyone else you suspect of being Whiteflame's teammate, including me.
Again? Why the Hell would anyone lynch you? You seem obsessed with this, you vanilla?
Mharman
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@That2User
Again? Why the Hell would anyone lynch you?
Literally just confidence, plus speaking from what your line of logic would be. If you really fear such chaos, then why not lynch me, the one who fought for the plan so hard, if such chaos happens. If such chaos doesn't happen, then game is solved.
whiteflame
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@RationalMadman
RM, it’s great to see you working to convince others instead of just saying that you won’t be swayed, but this logic isn’t nearly as airtight as you make it sound.

A lot of this is just surmising about plausible theme splits, though I haven’t seen much from you about it being rather likely that at least one claim in this game is fake. You alluded to the possibility that either Supa or I am BJJ, which fucks with every single theme split you’ve given. If we assume that someone is hiding BJJ and we know that to be a scum role, it is also utilizes a lot of grappling, joint locks and chokeholds, setting its style as very distinct from boxing. You also asked for my ideas on a theme split, clearly with no intention of considering them, and ignored each possibility that considers other possible pairings for scum. Geographically, BJJ is isolated from everything except Capoeira. It involves a lot of ground fighting, just like Sambo. If you’re going to focus on theme splits, at least try to incorporate the one we all accept is almost certainly in this game and scum.

As for sussing me over the incorrect 5-2 split, again, this is you calling someone out for making the same mistake you did. Not sure how this implicates me over you. 

I don’t even know what your plan is with Earth in your attempt to lord what you consider to be better mafia play over him.

There’s a general assumption throughout your post that lynching me won’t end the game because you think you’ve called my role, as though no other form of martial art is as likely as boxing to have either the ninja or strongman role. Ninja, in particular, seems odd as speed is inherently important to every martial art and it’s weird for a western style to get a “ninja” label. As for the strongman, other martial arts do KO their opponents, not to mention you haven’t even responded to my justification.

I also don’t get why you’re opposed to PoE, especially since I’ve outright stated that if I survive, I’m the obvious lynch target. I’m saying that outright now, taking away any discussion of CC or votes on you vs. me: if I survive this NP, everyone should vote for me, full stop. I’ll join you to get it out of the way. There’s also the possibility (albeit there are variables we don’t know, like an RB) that yours or Earth’s roles won’t work. If that happens, then we lose that extra information, but we still gain information and you do not lose your opportunity.

I may not convince anyone with this, but with us at MYLO, I think we should be as close to certain as possible before we lynch someone. Maybe you are, but I’m not, and I don’t think anyone else is, either.
That2User
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@whiteflame
Do you believe in RM vs. WF? That if one of you is innocent the other has to be guilty?
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@That2User
I do not think that there are 3 investigational roles in this game, and I buy Earth’s claim over RM’s, so I think he’s scum, even though he behaviorally comes off as townie. I said that much earlier.
That2User
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@whiteflame
Geographically, BJJ is isolated from everything except Capoeira. It involves a lot of ground fighting, just like Sambo. If you’re going to focus on theme splits, at least try to incorporate the one we all accept is almost certainly in this game and scum.
Did we find out who BJJ is? RM speculated it being Supa but he claims Capoeria, I feel looking into alt theme splits is optimal
That2User
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@Vader
I still would like to read up a bit more though
What have you found? 
whiteflame
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@That2User
I’m not convinced that exploring theme splits is the way to go here. We’re mainly just spit-balling, and even with all the claims on the table, we have 3 or 4 potentially viable splits, all of which could be wrong and many of which disagree.

Still, I think it’s valid to consider who could be faking their claim. Capoeira seems plausible since it is another Brazilian martial art and just generally being vanilla makes the claim easy to fake. Sambo might be as well due to also being Vanilla, though it’s Russian. I have a harder time buying that the other claims are faked, especially yours (Karate was pretty much guaranteed to be here), but that’s partly due to the roles they come with. Justice is a bit weird, but I never saw it as a CC for the Cop, and Luna will often throw in underused roles.
That2User
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@whiteflame
Still, I think it’s valid to consider who could be faking their claim. Capoeira seems plausible since it is another Brazilian martial art and just generally being vanilla makes the claim easy to fake. Sambo might be as well due to also being Vanilla
2 vanillas makes 0 sense
RationalMadman
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@whiteflame
I do not think that there are 3 investigational roles in this game, and I buy Earth’s claim over RM’s, so I think he’s scum, even though he behaviorally comes off as townie. I said that much earlier.
Major slip, not because it's not correct to do but because you are even saying you're thinking about it.

You should 100% know that I am scum if you were real cop, the reason is that you would have caught and read that we clarified (by me asking Lunatic) that Godfather, framer, lawyer etc do not work on me under his hosting mechanics, as a parity cop (I am called Justice but my role is parity cop in OG mafia terminology).

You therefore should 100% know that I am the scum if you believe there are not 3 PRs.
That2User
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@whiteflame
I’m not convinced that exploring theme splits is the way to go here. We’re mainly just spit-balling, and even with all the claims on the table, we have 3 or 4 potentially viable splits, all of which could be wrong and many of which disagree.
What way is the way to go in this?
RationalMadman
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@That2User
Do you think Day Phase one that I claim an alignment checking PR role and he doesn't CC me there and then?

If you are Town, please explain, if you are his partner still explain.

You will notice that almost all of my replies and questions have probed thought processes today, your thinking process is townier than Mharman's is. Mharman's seems concocted. As for Supadudz... Let's avoid an insult...
That2User
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@RationalMadman
Do you think Day Phase one that I claim an alignment checking PR role and he doesn't CC me there and then?
This is missing a few words
 
You will notice that almost all of my replies and questions have probed thought processes today, your thinking process is townier than Mharman's is. Mharman's seems concocted. As for Supadudz... Let's avoid an insult...
Why is my thinking townier than Mhar?
RationalMadman
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@That2User
Do you think Day Phase one that I claim an alignment checking PR role and he doesn't CC me there and then?
This is missing a few words
Do you think Day Phase one AS REAL COP that I claim an alignment checking PR role and he doesn't CC me there and then?
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@That2User
Why is my thinking townier than Mhar?
Mharman's behaviour comes across to me as really shady actually but I kept my mouth shut about that because he assumed I voted him for anger reasons this DP whereas it was intentionally just a 'fuck you' to see how he'd react but also a secret scumread on him for something I found odd AF.

On DP1, I am pretty sure it was Mharman specifically that defended ComputerNerd first, saying the same thing I did later; CN trying harder this game totally fits what a noob as Town would do after feeling they did really bad before and quitting.

He then proceeded to not at all justify his vote on CN over Incel-Chud. He just did it and said he felt like the vote on IC wasn't happening and that therefore it was cool to vote CN.

Then, today, his instinct was inaction in the face of murky waters, as opposed to lynching. This is such a contrast to his under-pressure reaction DP1 when he voted way before he needed to, even if he had to sleep he could have woken up several hours later to see if he had to vote or what was viable if that was his concern.

The way he keeps pushing for Town to opt for inaction today, screams scum to me especially as he pushes harder on it the more that Whiteflame appears in danger but was more chill about it and openminded when it wasn't sure Whiteflame was losing this CC nor the crediblity I had.

Another reason behind it is I think this was balanced as what Lunatic sees as a non-bastard all-PR game. It does make sense to not have a vanilla actually, despite what you just said to whiteflame, if Mafia were essentially able to cut through abilities quite a bit (except mine unless they have a roleblocker).

This is also why I outed ASAP day one, I ran through many combinations (I am very intelligent just trust me I can do that) in my head quickly to figure out how I'd have that role and it would be considered balanced. This made me realise that the balancing either totally renders my role pretty pathetic (like Earth's if there's a ninja) or I am just not nerfed and instead this is probably a setup with a tonne of utility and protection interactions where I'm a lone or duo investigator with another type that's the nerfed one. That's why I knew I had to out, on top of thinking I had a serious clue as to the theme split.
That2User
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@RationalMadman
Do you think Day Phase one AS REAL COP that I claim an alignment checking PR role and he doesn't CC me there and then?
See, that's shaky, Idk why WF wouldn't do this immediately as cop as me, but in WF's mind this isn't a CC:

Justice is a bit weird, but I never saw it as a CC for the Cop, and Luna will often throw in underused roles.
-WF #192

whiteflame
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@RationalMadman
I have good reason to believe you’re scum and I gave it. You’re the only one who has been peddling this view that a Cop and Justice cannot ever be in the same game, for some reason on the sole basis that Justice is sometimes called a parity cop. I even noted that you said that you said your role isn’t affected by the framer, lawyer and godfather after you posted that, so I’m not sure why that clarification in any way implicates me. If anything, that gave me reason to see why Justice and Cop have some interesting dynamics in the same game, absent any other investigational claims.

I do, however, believe that a Watcher or Tracker is more likely than a niche role like Justice, and I do not believe that there are 3 investigational PRs. That’s not a slip, dude. Just because you call it a slip doesn’t make it so.
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@whiteflame
No, the real reason you should absolutely believe I am scum is that the tracker claim is cleared by me. That's why you're slipping if you firmly believe there are only 2 investivative PRs and you are one of them.
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@whiteflame
You're just making up your thought process as you go along.
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@That2User
What way is the way to go in this?
Not entirely sure what you’re asking for here, but since this was a response to my statement about theme splits, I would argue that we should take any theme split with a big grain of salt and use them mainly to guide what we believe to be a potential pairing. In that sense, I’d say that there are several options for scum teams, but they include enough of the remaining players that we shouldn’t be reliant on them.
That2User
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@whiteflame
Not entirely sure what you’re asking for here
How do we determine scum? What scum teams do you have most likely to least likely?
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@RationalMadman
No, the real reason you should absolutely believe I am scum is that the tracker claim is cleared by me. That's why you're slipping if you firmly believe there are only 2 investivative PRs and you are one of them.
...Seriously? Let's look at the order of events here, RM.

At the beginning of the DP, you made clear what your result was for your Justice role:

I got that earth and Wylted are the same side but I fully believe a lawyer is in the game given the theme etc.
Later, you confirmed that a lawyer couldn't have modified your results, so you couldn't swing this result. Earth was locked in as town. Later, Earth claimed Watcher/Tracker and you accepted that immediately. That response didn't make a lot of sense to me at the time since you made a big stink about me not CCing you when you claimed an investigative role. I initially interpreted that as an extension of your double standard, since you made several points about how I'm scum for doing things that you admit you've done as well. Now, I'm reconsidering. You had every reason to doubt him, yet you accepted it almost immediately because you had no choice. Denying his claim would have implicated you.

You're just making up your thought process as you go along.
That's pretty rich coming from someone who has spent so much of this DP ignoring many of my responses. My thought process has actually been pretty consistent. I was clear up front when Earth claimed about how I perceived the presence of three investigational roles. I've brought up multiple times that I don't agree with your argument that a Justice and Cop cannot be in the same game. You don't like that response, but that doesn't mean that is suddenly new or unfounded. 



whiteflame
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@That2User
How do we determine scum? What scum teams do you have most likely to least likely?
Ah, alright, that makes sense.

I'm not going to give a list of all possible scum teams, but I'll list my top 3 in order and give reasoning.

RM and Supa

I've already given my reasoning for suspecting RM and Supa in isolation. Together, I noticed that RM barely responded to him after Supa claimed despite calling for it so adamantly. He eventually responded to Supa several pages later in response to Supa saying that RM had only soft claimed in DP1, after which he demanded that Supa full-claim despite Supa's already having full-claimed. It smacked of manufactured tension that went nowhere. RM hasn't even acknowledged the claim since, let alone factored Capoeira into his suggested theme splits. For someone who has been trying to thoroughly figure out those splits, he's awfully willing to ignore this claim.

RM and Mharman

I scumread Mharman in DP1, hence my choice to target him during the NP. My result gives me less reason to implicate him, but as I said up front, I'm not going to ignore the possibility that my result was somehow modified. The main reason this is lower, though, is that it's harder to justify based on their behaviors. RM and Mharman have interacted substantially in both DPs, and while part of the difference can be chalked up to their increased activity over Supa, what I've read doesn't seem manufactured. Still, I have trouble dismissing this on that basis alone.

Supa and That2User

This is a bit of a dark horse choice. It wouldn't be the first time that we've had a team who started out relatively inactive and largely just let the main conflicts between town members play out. The more I'm watching you participate, the less I'm buying this as a viable team, but I'm still considering it.


In case you're wondering, I'm buying that there's at least one vanilla in this game, so I don't buy an Mharman/Supa team. Your behavioral interactions with RM come off as solidly townie to me, while your interactions with Supa are just too few for me to conclude much of anything from either of you.

Mharman
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He then proceeded to not at all justify his vote on CN over Incel-Chud. He just did it and said he felt like the vote on IC wasn't happening and that therefore it was cool to vote CN.
You're stretching the truth here. I never felt it was "cool",  just that I was out of options. Some info is better than none on a DP1.

Then, today, his instinct was inaction in the face of murky waters, as opposed to lynching. This is such a contrast to his under-pressure reaction DP1 when he voted way before he needed to, even if he had to sleep he could have woken up several hours later to see if he had to vote or what was viable if that was his concern.
This "contrast" is because the circumstances of DP1 and DP2 are different. In DP1 there is barely any behavior, no lynch, and no night kill to analyze AND it was a non-MYLO situation. Here in DP2 was can analyze three deaths (two in the night and one lynch), but we are in MYLO with an even number. Not to mention that Wylted, who would've been my biggest scumread coming into this DP, turned to be have died in the night, which forced me to rethink everything I thought I knew. As for the early vote, maybe it was a bit early to you, but given Supa's inactivity and Earth's little activity at the time, I felt that every player we were missing was a smaller chance to lynch Wylted, who was my preference over CNerd, so I went with CNerd because he had one more vote on him at the time, and therefore a higher chance to get at least a lynch that DP, even if I didn't really like the option that was being wagoned on.

The way he keeps pushing for Town to opt for inaction today, screams scum to me especially as he pushes harder on it the more that Whiteflame appears in danger but was more chill about it and openminded when it wasn't sure Whiteflame was losing this CC nor the crediblity I had.
Because I do not believe a cop claim is something any scum team would do AND you still have failed to produce your results from last night of this role you supposedly have. That is why I firmly believe he's town. But let's say he's buddying me here and isn't a cop and you are the real investigative role. Why not take the test to prove it? This isn't inaction. It is running a test before we vote the wrong player and lose the game, which would be an unintelligent action. You argue that the test can lead to more uncertainty, but not everyone sees it that way. Given the possibilities of today already, there's really not that much more chaos that can even be added, yet you stick to fringe what-ifs that are easily readable next DP even if they do happen.

Another reason behind it is I think this was balanced as what Lunatic sees as a non-bastard all-PR game. It does make sense to not have a vanilla actually, despite what you just said to whiteflame, if Mafia were essentially able to cut through abilities quite a bit (except mine unless they have a roleblocker).
There were vanillas in Ozark Mafia. Lunatic just makes them less in number in every game he does, but they still exist in nearly all of his games.

This is also why I outed ASAP day one, I ran through many combinations (I am very intelligent just trust me I can do that) in my head quickly to figure out how I'd have that role and it would be considered balanced. This made me realise that the balancing either totally renders my role pretty pathetic (like Earth's if there's a ninja) or I am just not nerfed and instead this is probably a setup with a tonne of utility and protection interactions where I'm a lone or duo investigator with another type that's the nerfed one. That's why I knew I had to out, on top of thinking I had a serious clue as to the theme split.
As far as I'm concerned, you outted yourself DP1 to control the game. Scum clearly has a strongman they can use given Wylted's role, so why aren't you dead? We know Pie vigged Wylted, so Pie's death in only explainable if he was the target for the night kill. And he was the guy that questioned you the most, meaning you stand to have the most benefit in his death.

And the biggest thing is, you could prove yourself innocent (and Whiteflame guilty) by doing the test, yet you keep making excuses not to do it, probably because it implicates you if Whiteflame cooperates and everything checks out. If you are so confident in Whitelfame's guilt and your own innocence, just take the test.

Mharman
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@RationalMadman
forgot to ping you. post #208
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@Mharman
You are literally OMGUSing me as in the only reason you have flipped to scumread me is that I scumread you. I am pretty ok with it because I am becoming more sure that the team is whiteflame and yourself at this point.