Why I oppose Roe V Wade

Author: TheUnderdog

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ADreamOfLiberty
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@oromagi
There is not a single law now or ever that does derive its claimed authority from a moral premise nor is any law by definition anything less than a matter of violence.
What is the moral premise authorizing the popular bill to make Daylight Savings time permanent?
That is not a real law, it is called law but there are no criminals, no punishments, no code of behavior. To call that law demonstrates only a flaw in the conception of government. It's a declaration of standards.

You say "may not constitutionally" yea where in the US constitution (and that was the immediate context) is that?  It's not there,
First Ammendment
Incorrect

If the answer isn't moral it's irrelevant.
False.
Then give an answer, and I will be unable to ask a series of questions that lead to a value assertion.

There are no problems without goals and no goals without values.
Obv. False.  An earthquake is a problem without goals.  Surviving an earthquake is a goal without values.
The problem with an earthquake is that it destroys things we value. Survival is a goal because we value life. That is obvious.

You said "is necessary and appropriate." about a constitutional amendment. Necessary for what?
The same reason as all constitutional amendments- protection from state intrusion.
Why is preventing state intrusion necessary?

"patriot act, terrorism isn't a private matter", "killing babies isn't a private matter", "sodomy isn't a private matter".
Your right to swing your arm leaves off where my right not to have my nose struck begins.  Terrorism is definitely a threat to my nose.  A stranger's pregnancy is not a threat to my nose.  A stranger's cock is not a threat to my nose (metaphorically at any rate).  Just calling it crime doesn't change one's rights.
This is correct. It is also a moral statement and an aspect of the moral principle of liberty. The fact that your mind immediately went to this to defend privacy is confirmation that your understanding is essentially the same as mine.

So, what good would declaring a right to privacy do if someone thinks abortion constitutes someone's nose getting struck?
TheUnderdog
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Do I have to explain that human females are in fact sexual creatures as well?
Most women are demisexual, so they don't fuck someone unless they think they can be on better terms with them.  This is why lesbians don't have that much sex and as a result, they don't spread STIs nearly as much as their gay counterparts.

First, If you were serious about not wanting kids why would you not get a vasectomy?
I want to sell my sperm to get more money.  But if no place will take it, I would get a vasectomy.

Are you asexual? Well most people aren't.
No; I've gotten erections from porn and wet dreams before.  I just know better than to have sex.  Get your sexual urges out on porn and dick massaging so you have a 0% chance of causing an unwanted pregnancy.  It's what I do and it works.

Second, How about you confine yourself to anal and fellatio?
Anal is gross; I get shit all over my dick and I still might get an STI.  I don't want oral sex because I don't want STIs and I don't want to get my dick bit off.  With a size as big as mine, that would be very painful and traumatic.

Perhaps like female sex drive and consent you haven't considered those yet?
Most females only have sex to make their boyfriends/husbands happy or to get pregnant.  Women are demisexual.

If not you then what about others?
What do you mean?  I'm not losing my virginity because people want me to.  If someone tried to take my virginity away, it would be rape.
ADreamOfLiberty
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@TheUnderdog
Birth control produces bad side effects for women and the women should not be forced to endure the side effects from birth control just so a man could have sex. 
They don't need to be forced and almost never are.Do I have to explain that human females are in fact sexual creatures as well?
Most women are demisexual, so they don't fuck someone unless they think they can be on better terms with them.
The exact and quite immeasurable make up of their motivations is irrelevant. They aren't forced.


Second, How about you confine yourself to anal and fellatio?
Anal is gross; I get shit all over my dick and I still might get an STI.  I don't want oral sex because I don't want STIs and I don't want to get my dick bit off.  With a size as big as mine, that would be very painful and traumatic.
If not for the bolded and underlined you could have kept that troll going for hours since I do err so on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt. Hope you had fun, til next time.
TheUnderdog
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@ADreamOfLiberty
The exact and quite immeasurable make up of their motivations is irrelevant. They aren't forced.
They do it to get along with their boyfriends/husbands.  Since they are demisexual, they aren't too interested in having sex.  They are the victims of male peer pressure.

I also threw in some jokes, but I don't want anal or oral sex because they spread STIs and I don't want to give a woman the power to bite my dick off.  

It happened in this video: Blowjob goes horribly wrong - Bing video
ADreamOfLiberty
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@TheUnderdog
It happened in this video: Blowjob goes horribly wrong - Bing video
On a planet of billions it's going to happen every once in a while, it is not a sane concern. If you don't trust someone enough to put your dick in their mouth sex is definitely a bad idea.

STIs are contagions they come from infected people not the acts that spread them, I'm not talking about wild polyamory, everything I said can apply to a small number of sex partner(s) who have clean health.
Polytheist-Witch
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@TheUnderdog
You have no concept of how women think. Why would you just assume that a woman is just going to bite your dick off. I have no idea what's happened to you in your life but you really have no idea what goes on in a normal healthy relationship or even in a normal healthy person who's promiscuous.
TheUnderdog
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@ADreamOfLiberty
If you don't trust someone enough to put your dick in their mouth sex is definitely a bad idea.
Thanks for reinforcing my goal of not having sex.  I encourage all men to follow suit unless they want kids.

STIs are contagions they come from infected people not the acts that spread them
The majority of Americans have herpes and 1/5 Americans have an incurable STI.

everything I said can apply to a small number of sex partner(s) who have clean health.
People often lose that clean health when they have sex.
TheUnderdog
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@Polytheist-Witch
Why would you just assume that a woman is just going to bite your dick off.
If the woman hates my guts, they might bite my dick off.  They might trick me into oral sex and then bite my dick off intentionally.  They also might do it accidentally.  I'm not trusting a woman with my dick and I don't even know why blowjobs feel good.  If you want warm liquid on your dick, then shower.  I personally prefer cold liquid because my dick gets too warm and it needs to cool off.
ADreamOfLiberty
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@TheUnderdog
STIs are contagions they come from infected people not the acts that spread them
The majority of Americans have herpes and 1/5 Americans have an incurable STI.
That sounds false. I'm going to need a source on both those claims if you want me to accept them.
I don't even know why blowjobs feel good.
It's got to be a troll.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
That sounds false. I'm going to need a source on both those claims if you want me to accept them.



I don't even know why blowjobs feel good.
It's got to be a troll.
Not accurate.  I genuinely don't know why someone would want a blowjob.  They can wash their dick off in warm water if they wanted to.  I perfer cold water though.
ADreamOfLiberty
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@TheUnderdog
That sounds false. I'm going to need a source on both those claims if you want me to accept them.


Shady site trying to sell Herpes drugs 1/10. CDC 8/10 (unless they're trying to sell STI vaccines :o). Actual source of CDC: https://journals.lww.com/stdjournal/Fulltext/2021/04000/Sexually_Transmitted_Infections_Among_US_Women_and.2.aspx

I read over it briefly and thought "what about overlap" and lo and behold:
First, our estimates of total prevalence and incidence across all STIs overestimate the number of people with a prevalent or incident infection in 2018 due to the possibility of coinfections and the inability to estimate the level of coinfection.
Still I have learned something, so thank you; the spread of HPV is way way worse than I thought it was. I remember eight years ago HPV was only becoming an issue in rural south america. People tried to argue that it was associated with extra-sapiens activity. Now clearly not a requirement (nor could anyone reasonably versed in biology have expected it would be).

All of that not withstanding, every one of these diseases can be detected. Awkward though it may be, you can check beforehand.

I don't even know why blowjobs feel good.
It's got to be a troll.
Not accurate.  I genuinely don't know why someone would want a blowjob.  They can wash their dick off in warm water if they wanted to.  I perfer cold water though.
.... it's not a cleaning procedure.

How about when you said you wanted to keep your system working to sell sperm? How is it that joe-average gets his kidney cut out if he produces a child and the woman decides against his will to have an abortion but you get to sell your swimmers with no risk to your kidneys?

What if somebody buys your sperm, gets pregnant (because there aren't many other uses for sperm), and then has an abortion. No moral fault on you in that case because you were paid?.... doesn't really follow.
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You Intelligent Aliens viewing this forum can obviously see that life on Earth was an accident.
TheUnderdog
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@ADreamOfLiberty
How is it that joe-average gets his kidney cut out if he produces a child and the woman decides against his will to have an abortion but you get to sell your swimmers with no risk to your kidneys?
Because the male that had sex with her chose to take the risk for pregnancy by having sex, and given that abortion results in a kid dying, the kid's existence is their fault.  I'm not forcing anyone to take my sperm, but people want my sperm, so I'm happy to make money off of it.  If they don't use my sperm, they will use someone else's.  I'm not forcing them to have a kid, they chose to do that.

No moral fault on you in that case because you were paid?.... doesn't really follow.
It's not my fault they wanted a kid.  Their kid-> their responsability.
ADreamOfLiberty
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@TheUnderdog
How is it that joe-average gets his kidney cut out if he produces a child and the woman decides against his will to have an abortion but you get to sell your swimmers with no risk to your kidneys?
Because the male that had sex with her chose to take the risk for pregnancy by having sex, and given that abortion results in a kid dying, the kid's existence is their fault.  I'm not forcing anyone to take my sperm, but people want my sperm, so I'm happy to make money off of it.  If they don't use my sperm, they will use someone else's.  I'm not forcing them to have a kid, they chose to do that.
You don't seem to realize every differentiating point you just tried to make is symmetric:

Because the male that had sex with her chose to take the risk for pregnancy by having sex, and given that abortion results in a kid dying, the kid's existence is their fault
Because you choose to take the risk for pregnancy by giving sperm, the kid's existence is your fault... symmetric

[out of order] If they don't use my sperm, they will use someone else's.
If they don't have sex with you, they will have sex with someone else. Symmetric.

I'm not forcing anyone to take my sperm, but people want my sperm, so I'm happy to make money off of it.
...
I'm not forcing them to have a kid, they chose to do that.
What you still don't seem to understand is that this is equally true of consensual sex. The consensual there means "not forced".

Every male in the universe (with a properly functioning sex drive) would like nothing better than to be paid to impregnate females so I'm not surprised you would be happy but being paid hardly improves the moral situation you seemed so certain of.

You are taking the exact same risk by donating sperm. Someone could make a kid with that sperm and you are risking that they will do so and then kill the kid.

Sperm donors store sperm in a bank because people feel awkward about having sex with strangers, especially in the light of vows of monogamy, but if that taboo didn't exist sperm donors would simply deliver the goods directly. It's way cheaper than keeping a bunch of sterile lab equipment, techs, and freezers running.

Would you still claim there is a meaningful difference then? When exactly does your responsibility evaporate? What factor saves your kidney?
TheUnderdog
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Because you choose to take the risk for pregnancy by giving sperm, the kid's existence is your fault
The kid isn't my fault.  It's the fault of the person who wanted to be pregnant with my sperm.  Sperm donors don't pay child support for their kids.

Every male in the universe (with a properly functioning sex drive) would like nothing better than to be paid to impregnate females so I'm not surprised you would be happy but being paid hardly improves the moral situation you seemed so certain of.
Are you saying either that deadbeat dads shouldn't pay child support because of their sex drive or that someone who is a sperm donor should pay child support?  Because I think if your a sperm donor, it's implied that you won't be paying child support, whereas if someone has sex, the female assumes that if she gets pregnant, the guy will take care of her, there are different implications from selling your sperm versus having sex with someone.

If the guy said in advance, "If I have sex with you and you get pregnant, I am not paying child support and I don't want to raise the kid" and the female agrees to have sex with him nonetheless, then I wouldn't hold the man guilty and I would hold the woman guilty.  This is what happens with sperm donors.  If a guy on the other hand doesn't claim whether he will take care of the kid or claims he's going to, then I would hold the guy responsible because it's implied that he will take care of the pregnant female and her kid.

Also, drunk people should be banned from sex because people do stupid stuff when they are drunk.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
I'm liking this conversation though.  It causes me to think.
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@TheUnderdog

If the guy said in advance, "If I have sex with you and you get pregnant, I am not paying child support and I don't want to raise the kid" and the female agrees to have sex with him nonetheless, then I wouldn't hold the man guilty and I would hold the woman guilty.  This is what happens with sperm donors.  If a guy on the other hand doesn't claim whether he will take care of the kid or claims he's going to, then I would hold the guy responsible because it's implied that he will take care of the pregnant female and her kid.
So you're just saying the default is responsibility... but when you volunteered the reason why you wanted to stay a virgin you said to avoid this responsibility. Not only could you use birth prevention techniques, not only could you engage in non-procreative acts only, but you could also simply declare that you had no responsibility and proceed to donate sperm in such a way as to terminate your virginity.

It does not all fit together.

Also, drunk people should be banned from sex because people do stupid stuff when they are drunk.
They do don't they, but there is no moral case for future crime. If the crime is murdering a baby; that is what can be punished. All actions risking that will be discouraged by that punishment. It is not for others to assess such risks.
Reece101
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Bodily autonomy of the woman versus sufficient development of the fetuses nervous system and its viability outside the womb.
This is what it should come down to with a healthy pregnancy. 
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@TheUnderdog
Have you considered preventative measures of unwanted pregnancies? Or is there something more on your mind than preventing abortion?
TheUnderdog
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@Reece101
Birth control should be free and abortion should be banned and punishable by a proportional method.  I'd prefer it if it wasn't death, I think that's too authoritarian given the frequency of abortion.  But a proportional penalty is needed for abortion.

An exception is rape (because if I hypothetically got raped by a female, I wouldn't want to pay child support).  Similarly, if a female gets raped, she should be allowed an abortion and the man that raped her should get the death penalty.
TheUnderdog
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@ADreamOfLiberty
So you're just saying the default is responsibility
If you have sex, the default is responsibility.  If you sell your sperm, nobody should be expecting you to take care of the kid that comes from it.
but you could also simply declare that you had no responsibility and proceed to donate sperm in such a way as to terminate your virginity.
Donating your sperm doesn't cause you to lose your virginity anymore than jerking off does.  Having sex is what causes you to lose your virginity.  If you sell your sperm, the sperm is someone else's responsibility now, not yours.
They do don't they, but there is no moral case for future crime. If the crime is murdering a baby; that is what can be punished. All actions risking that will be discouraged by that punishment.
A drunk person is like a child; they can't consent to sex.  If 2 10 year olds had sex together, you don't punish them, but you tell them not to do it again.  If 2 drunk people are having sex, you are supposed to prevent them from having sex (and it's more dangerous when drunk people have sex because of pregnancy and birth control isn't always taken, plus the birth control might mix with the alcohoul in a bad way).  If a sober person has sex with a drunk person or an adult has sex  with a 10 year old, the sober person and the adult are rapists and they need to be killed for the rape.

ADreamOfLiberty
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@TheUnderdog
but you could also simply declare that you had no responsibility and proceed to donate sperm in such a way as to terminate your virginity.
Donating your sperm doesn't cause you to lose your virginity anymore than jerking off does.  Having sex is what causes you to lose your virginity.  If you sell your sperm, the sperm is someone else's responsibility now, not yours.
You can have sex without responsibility by the method you just outlined of saying "not it". Every male (excepting the ones who are ready to commit) will say that, thus all consequences will fall on the woman; and they should.

They do don't they, but there is no moral case for future crime. If the crime is murdering a baby; that is what can be punished. All actions risking that will be discouraged by that punishment.
A drunk person is like a child; they can't consent to sex.  If 2 10 year olds had sex together, you don't punish them, but you tell them not to do it again.  If 2 drunk people are having sex, you are supposed to prevent them from having sex (and it's more dangerous when drunk people have sex because of pregnancy and birth control isn't always taken, plus the birth control might mix with the alcohoul in a bad way).  If a sober person has sex with a drunk person or an adult has sex  with a 10 year old, the sober person and the adult are rapists and they need to be killed for the rape.
Fascinating theory, a few problems though. Drunk people choose to be drunk people before they are drunk, children do not choose to be young before they are young.

Your postulation allows for the perfect crime and thus subsidizes immoral or impractical actions. If the difference between rape and not-rape is choosing to impair your own judgement it is obviously in the self-interest of the sex-seeker to impair their own judgement.

If you applied it to drunk driving, it would be better to be drunk and hit someone than to be sober because the sober driver is a murderer and the drunk driver is blameless. This obviously doesn't work out too well and that is why it is not policy.

If on the other hand we consistently applied a principle of risk-assessment being part of the moral responsibility a person who deliberately impairs themselves does not escape responsibility in the slightest. They may behave recklessly while impaired but they behaved recklessly while not-impaired in choosing to become impaired.

Your theory has another inconsistency:
Sober adult + sober adult = not rape
Sober adult + drunk adult = rape
drunk adult + drunk adult = not rape
child + child = not rape
child + sober adult = rape
child + drunk adult = ?

In your simplistic and flawed theory drunk people are incapable of consent as are children, If we replace every "child" and "drunk adult" with "misinformed" and every "sober adult" with "informed" we get:

informed + informed = not rape
informed + misinformed = rape
misinformed + misinformed = not rape
misinformed + misinformed = not rape
misinformed + informed = rape
misinformed + misinformed = ?

See the pattern? The same information/competency/whatever status means not-rape. Different information status means rape. The last example, drunk adult + child would then be "not rape".

Now you could try to patch and bandaid this theory with a bunch of arbitrary assertions but that's not what truth looks like. It's simply a flawed theory.
Reece101
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@TheUnderdog
Birth control should be free and abortion should be banned and punishable by a proportional method.  I'd prefer it if it wasn't death, I think that's too authoritarian given the frequency of abortion.  But a proportional penalty is needed for abortion.
You’ll be condemning many women to death regardless. Women will seek abortion either way.

An exception is rape (because if I hypothetically got raped by a female, I wouldn't want to pay child support).  Similarly, if a female gets raped, she should be allowed an abortion and the man that raped her should get the death penalty.
What if the guy takes the condom off because of reasons ranging from it feels better, to him wanting to get her pregnant, and the teenager or woman didn’t know? Would you consider that rape too? It’s called stealthing. Also how would courts definitively decide who’s telling the truth? Would you sentience that teenager or man to death based purely on anecdotal evidence?

Are you against the morning after pill? 
TheUnderdog
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@Reece101
What if the guy takes the condom off because of reasons ranging from it feels better, to him wanting to get her pregnant, and the teenager or woman didn’t know? Would you consider that rape too?
Stealthing is as bad as rape and the guy that did it should be killed.

Also how would courts definitively decide who’s telling the truth?
Lawyers went to law school to figure out who's guilty and who isn't.

Are you against the morning after pill? 
No.

You’ll be condemning many women to death regardless. Women will seek abortion either way.
I said a proportional penalty is needed for abortion, and the man would pay it because it's his fault the woman is pregnant.  The penalty can be death or loss of kidney(to save another life) and sterilization (to prevent another abortion from happening).  It also can be giving blood to save someone else's life.  A proportional penalty for abortion doesn't have to be death.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
You can have sex without responsibility by the method you just outlined of saying "not it". Every male (excepting the ones who are ready to commit) will say that, thus all consequences will fall on the woman; and they should.
The male has to state before the pregnancy exists to the female that if she gets pregnant, he won't take responsibility.  If the female agrees to have sex with him nonetheless, the pregnancy is her fault.  The guy in advance has to state that he won't take responsibility if she gets pregnant, and this has to be in writing as proof.  Otherwise, it's assumed he didn't mention responsibility and therefore he would have to take care of the kid he chose to create.

Drunk people choose to be drunk people before they are drunk, children do not choose to be young before they are young.
Fair point, but drunk people still don't know any better when they are drunk, so having sex with a drunk person should be illegal.

If the difference between rape and not-rape is choosing to impair your own judgement it is obviously in the self-interest of the sex-seeker to impair their own judgement.
The sex seeker wouldn't impair their own judgement because nobody would want to have sex with them.

If you applied it to drunk driving, it would be better to be drunk and hit someone than to be sober because the sober driver is a murderer and the drunk driver is blameless. This obviously doesn't work out too well and that is why it is not policy.
If you applied a similar situation to car accidents, an adult with a license driving a car would be viewed as worse than a child with no license driving a car.  I don't agree with this statement, but it's the same logic.  When your drunk, you deserve the same rights as a child.

Your theory has another inconsistency:
Sober adult + sober adult = not rape
Sober adult + drunk adult = rape
drunk adult + drunk adult = not rape
child + child = not rape
child + sober adult = rape
child + drunk adult = ?

In your simplistic and flawed theory drunk people are incapable of consent as are children, If we replace every "child" and "drunk adult" with "misinformed" and every "sober adult" with "informed" we get:

informed + informed = not rape
informed + misinformed = rape
misinformed + misinformed = not rape
misinformed + misinformed = not rape
misinformed + informed = rape
misinformed + misinformed = ?
I wouldn't group children in the same category of misinformed as drunk adults because the drunk adults still have some level of sexual awareness at least in terms of sex (just not enough to give consent).  In my book, child + drunk adult = rape (drunk adult is the rapist).
ADreamOfLiberty
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@TheUnderdog

You can have sex without responsibility by the method you just outlined of saying "not it". Every male (excepting the ones who are ready to commit) will say that, thus all consequences will fall on the woman; and they should.
The male has to state before the pregnancy exists to the female that if she gets pregnant, he won't take responsibility.  If the female agrees to have sex with him nonetheless, the pregnancy is her fault.  The guy in advance has to state that he won't take responsibility if she gets pregnant, and this has to be in writing as proof.  Otherwise, it's assumed he didn't mention responsibility and therefore he would have to take care of the kid he chose to create.
People won't do that without motivation, but if there was a law which put your kidneys and fertility at risk everyone who is currently having sex not intended to procreate will simply keep these forms in their pack just like they do condoms and birth pills.

It will drive down unwanted pregnancies, by increasing attention to birth control; it will not significantly reduce sex. Your comments on virginity continue to have nothing to do with this alleged justification.


Drunk people choose to be drunk people before they are drunk, children do not choose to be young before they are young.
Fair point, but drunk people still don't know any better when they are drunk, so having sex with a drunk person should be illegal.
With apparently the straightforward workaround of getting drunk yourself.

If the difference between rape and not-rape is choosing to impair your own judgement it is obviously in the self-interest of the sex-seeker to impair their own judgement.
The sex seeker wouldn't impair their own judgement because nobody would want to have sex with them.
Oh no, that really isn't true. I don't want to ask your age [or maybe you live in a super religious isolated community], but it really is clear this is all theory to you . Besides which it's not a binary state, it's continuous; a factor I also mention below.

If you applied it to drunk driving, it would be better to be drunk and hit someone than to be sober because the sober driver is a murderer and the drunk driver is blameless. This obviously doesn't work out too well and that is why it is not policy.
If you applied a similar situation to car accidents, an adult with a license driving a car would be viewed as worse than a child with no license driving a car.  I don't agree with this statement, but it's the same logic.  When your drunk, you deserve the same rights as a child.
You missed the point. Whether by direct action or taking your brain out of the equation a person is responsible. A voluntarily impaired person may lack malice required for the definition of many crimes but they certainly are not blameless.

I wouldn't group children in the same category of misinformed as drunk adults because the drunk adults still have some level of sexual awareness at least in terms of sex (just not enough to give consent).  In my book, child + drunk adult = rape (drunk adult is the rapist).
"not enough to give consent" so it's a continuous variable this sexual awareness thing. Impairment is also continuous, every drug has a dosage.

Some drugs can reduce you to the state of near unconsciousness. Others can cause you to lose all awareness of agenda and answer questions truthfully because you can't think of a reason not to.

Along the axis of "sexual awareness" where X is the awareness of a child and Y is the awareness of a sober adult, there must exist some impairment that would render the adult's lessened awareness Y' <= X as unconsciousness is < X.

So too it follows that no two drunk people have the same awareness, someone is always more impaired. Thus your claim of "not rape" if they are both drunk is a simplification. It would be "not very much rape".

If this doesn't all strike you as so absurd as to make you abandon the theory entirely let me point out explicitly that:

1) No such continuous variable "sexual awareness" can be defined in any measurable way, at least not in our lifetime. It isn't science or sound logic, it isn't even a guess, it's pure imagination.
2) The concept is useless on top of being baseless, it informs nothing that is not better understood by alternative concepts.
3) You say "sexual awareness" but it is a wider concept you allude to. The drunk driver has impaired physics awareness, yet the notion that drunk drivers are no longer responsible for their actions is itself another ad absurdum.

You can't have it both ways, it can't be different categories and yet refer to quantized responsibility in reference to a common continuous variable.

In reality drunk people can consent. When they reach for a beer that is consent to drink a beer. It is not consent in their right mind, but it is consent. The only time a creature with discernible will cannot consent is when they are unconscious or otherwise unable to communicate or act.
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@TheUnderdog
Stealthing is as bad as rape and the guy that did it should be killed.
Even if she goes through with the pregnancy? 

Lawyers went to law school to figure out who's guilty and who isn't.
I’m trying to figure out your reasoning. I’ll keep it out of the court then. 

You’ll be condemning many women to death regardless. Women will seek abortion either way.
I said a proportional penalty is needed for abortion, and the man would pay it because it's his fault the woman is pregnant.  The penalty can be death or loss of kidney(to save another life) and sterilization (to prevent another abortion from happening).  It also can be giving blood to save someone else's life.  A proportional penalty for abortion doesn't have to be death.
I said that within the context of banning abortions of healthy pregnancies (no rape, etc). Women will be seeking abortion regardless, which in many cases will lead to internal bleeding/infection/death. 
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Even if she goes through with the pregnancy? 
Yes.  Causing pregnancy without consent is as bad as rape and worthy of death.

Women will be seeking abortion regardless, which in many cases will lead to internal bleeding/infection/death.
There are people that seek to do horrible things.  If they commit these horrible things, a proportional penalty is needed.  The female didn’t get pregnant from HER free will; she was pressured to have sex by her boyfriend.

Therefore the sluttish boyfriend deserves the penalty for abortion.

If you don’t want pregnancy, don’t have sex(I’m assuming your male).  Females are victims of their sex positive boyfriends.  Punish the male; not the female.
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Yes.  Causing pregnancy without consent is as bad as rape and worthy of death.
So if a women uses a man to get pregnant by messing with the condom or lying about using birth control, she should be put to death too?

There are people that seek to do horrible things.  If they commit these horrible things, a proportional penalty is needed.  The female didn’t get pregnant from HER free will; she was pressured to have sex by her boyfriend.

Therefore the sluttish boyfriend deserves the penalty for abortion.

If you don’t want pregnancy, don’t have sex(I’m assuming your male).  Females are victims of their sex positive boyfriends.  Punish the male; not the female.
Will the teenager or woman be allowed to get an abortion then? 

How will you stop abortion when women and teenagers will be wanting abortion irregardless of how you feel? If a teenager or woman has no where to turn to, what do you think happens? The pro-life people should focus on preventative ways to stop unwanted pregnancies instead of cracking down on abortion. 


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