Russia and Ukraine

Author: Dr.Franklin

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#121
lady3keys
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@Lemming

It isn't moral to 'others, to advance your own people by war,
But one 'could argue it is moral to your 'own people.
As well as sensible, depending on one's value, reasons, risks, benefits.
I think you may be confusing self-interest with morality. 
A wife may think it is moral to kill her husband, citing emotional abuse. But it is really only in her own self-interest to do so. She doesn't NEED to kill him. She has other options.

It may make "sense" to her, but it is NOT moral in any way.


America also advances Democracy by propaganda, backdoor dealings, I imagine.
Central Intelligence Agency.

Very true for all countries I would imagine.

But to kill without provocation for nothing other than the desire to have "more", to deliberately enter into international agreements that you know you will break -- just for more power and control -- this is not moral. 

Russia is a "bad actor" in every sense of its political meaning IMHO.

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#122
Dr.Franklin
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@thett3
dont let your anger towards our disgusting ruling class turn pathological. Putin has started a war and because of that many many people are going to die. Russia is not a beacon of traditionalism, it’s a pathetic shithole ruled by oligarchs even more corrupt than ours, and while we obviously shouldn’t get involved militarily this isn’t something to celebrate 
I am not celebrating the invasion. I think it's petty but a loss for America is a win for my people
#123
badger
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It's a bit tragic that there's a war going on and I'm still so bored. 
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#124
Dr.Franklin
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I agree with you, but Putin thinks you're full of shit.
I havent mentioned putin once, I said "average russian"
#125
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@Dr.Franklin
The same government that hates my guts getting humiliated?? Couldnt be a bad thing
I don't see how the US government hates you (or anyone other than itself, really), but at least you're honest.
Order>Liberty
I disagree, but even if that were the case, there is a significant difference between believing that order is more important than liberty and simply not caring about liberty.

Regarding caring about Russia:
It is quite possible that the whole Russian-Ukraine war will finish without directly impacting the lives of those who don't live in either country. So why care? Because it's the right thing to do. Murder is wrong. Unprovoked invasion is murder on a grand scale. It's true that there is little that you and I can do about it. However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't care. It is often tempting to sacrifice our principles to our self-interest, but if we do, we will find ourselves on a dangerous path. We may not see it at first, but we won't like where we end up.
#126
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@Lemming
@lady3keys
What she said.
#127
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@badger
It's a bit tragic that there's a war going on and I'm still so bored. 

It's a minor incursion.
#128
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@Dr.Franklin
You said:

I am supporting Russia.
You also said that you prefer an orderly society, Putin thinks you are full of shit on that as well by the way.
#129
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@Vader
"The fact that you are willing to risk American lives for this is selfish"  How am I risking anyone's life? I am nothing more than a man who works at a granite shop. I am not sending people to war. I never suggested any such thing. It's Biden that's going to get people killed. He is weak and feckless. Weakness just brings more aggression. Biden is shitting his pants.  He has no idea how to even respond or if he should even respond. Biden's #1 concern is how he will be perceived no matter what he does. Being effective and strong doesn't even register on the radar. Putin is ten steps ahead of Biden. Putin knows exactly what he will do and already has contingencies for any stupid ass thing Biden does. Are you upset because I don't have any faith in Biden as a President? Why should I? Everything he is going to do in the coming days will hurt me, the average Joe, not Putin and Putin knows this and is counting on it and Biden is guaranteed to deliver. If he sends troops they will have no defined mission and will have their hands tied with ridiculous rules of engagement. Biden doesn't have the stomach to do what it takes to win a war. Kill lots of civilians. Before this over Biden's hands will bee stained red with the blood of American lives not Russians.
#130
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@sadolite
I am nothing more than a man who works at a granite shop.
I bought a custom granite slab and created a bar table out of it last year. Best investment I ever made.
#131
Lemming
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@lady3keys
Sorry, I don't mean to be obtuse,
Crossed a wire in my head, somewhere in the reading and thinking, on your post.
So I'm going to try to start small, more for my understanding, than yours.

What do you mean by morality?
#132
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@thett3
Eventually, conscription is possible but at the moment it is definitely not enacted yet, primarily because Russia justified its current attacks as aimed at military personnel, not civilians, so a conscription would justify Russia to attack all of Ukraine at once.

I am genuinely scared though like until Russia actually attacked I was thinking it was some weird bluff, now it's real and I have always known that ever since Covid began, China has been waiting to topple democracy and freedom once and for all. I would fully believe that China is with Russia on this; it's an agenda of world domination, no less. No democracy shall thrive by the end of it, if they get their way. This is actual real conspiracy theory in action, a real stepping stone to a world war three that gets packaged as a gradual set of separate events that never quite justify the backlash that was necessary to deter the dictators until they own the entire fucking world. This is sheer disrespect for sovereignty, clear violation if international pacts (including a specific one where Ukraine disarmed its nuclear warheads permanently in exchange for post-USSR Russia recognising it as sovereign).
#133
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I am genuinely scared though like until Russia actually attacked I was thinking it was some weird bluff, now it's real 
I think a lot of people believed Biden when he said he would be tough on Russia.
#134
sadolite
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@Greyparrot
I don't know if it was an investment.  When it comes to marble and granite its what you like and can afford.  Not much resale value. We have people spend $60,000 on a kitchen, have it installed, then turn right around and tear it all out and choose a different material and do it all over again. I love rich people with more money than  sense. They are my pay check.  I am glad you like your choice and it makes you happy.
#135
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@sadolite
I am most definitely dying with this table. I've had many a meal on it already and it's only a year old.
#136
Vader
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@Dr.Franklin
You are making yourself look more and more like a world class idiot. Don't do this to yourself
#137
Vader
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@Dr.Franklin
Good to know you are actively rooting for innocent lives to be killed for your own self gain. 
#138
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@Castin
FFS. In 2020 I had a choice -- I could vote for weakness or for cancer.
But muh personality
#139
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@lady3keys
All of this is happening because of Putin's aggression and desperate need to reinstate the former USSR.
Period. Full Stop.
And he chose to do it under weak presidents. I wonder why if Trump was a Russian stooge did Putin not invade Ukraine?

Live in denial all you want lol
#140
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@Vader
Good to know you are actively rooting for innocent lives to be killed for your own self gain. 
It’s sad but the US has no moral obligation to send troops. 
#141
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@Mharman
Which is the main point of the quote. And honestly, I think Trump in office over Biden would've resulted in a tougher America with a better chance of peace (albeit uneasy) between the two countries.
Please define “tougher America”.

When doing so, I would love to know how you account for the fact that Trump was literally everything Putin sought when he conducted an operation aimed at helping him get elected.

- an anti NATO President, check.
- an isolationist President, check.
- a President who feuded with all of our Democratic Allies while siding with every world autocrat, check
- a President who thought nuclear proliferation was a good thing, check.
- a President who would divide the US to the point where no President could ever reach 50% approval again, check.

Combine this with Trump’s public fawning over Putin for everything from his brilliance to his toughness, the way Trump’s face would literally light up when he saw Putin walk in the room, the way Trump took Putin’s side over that of his own US intelligence agencies in front of the entire world, the way Trump consistently went to bat to get Russia back in the G7 (they were booted out in the first place because of what they did to Ukraine), and then there was that whole thing about Trump taking a secret meeting that to this day no one in the United States knows what was said except the translator who was sworn to secrecy and who’s notes were confiscated by Trump.

When you argue that Trump was somehow tough on Russia, that Trump was the thing stopping Russia from taking these actions, please explain how you logically justify that. Inquiring minds would love to know.
#142
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@ILikePie5
All of this is happening because of Biden’s weakness and incompetence in foreign policy.
Do you have any actual facts and logic to back that up, or is that just what you heard on Hannity?
#143
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@Double_R
Do you have any actual facts and logic to back that up, or is that just what you heard on Hannity?
Only precedent. Putin already did it under the weak leadership of Obama/Biden. 

Sure would’ve been easier if he did it under Russian Stooge Donald though. I wonder why he didn’t.
#144
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@Double_R
When doing so, I would love to know how you account for the fact that Trump was literally everything Putin sought when he conducted an operation aimed at helping him get elected.

And yet Putin wasted 4 years to do what he did in a month after Biden told him he could have a minor incursion with no US response.

 that Trump was the thing stopping Russia from taking these actions,
It's an objective fact Putin took no territory. I also recall Trump killed a bunch of Russians in Syria as well.

This isn't exactly the results you would expect from a "puppet"
#145
Vader
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@ILikePie5
I know, but I am actively rooting for Ukraine
#146
cristo71
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Hopefully this at the very least serves as an object lesson that there’s much more to presiding over a world superpower than promising to address climate change and social justice. That is, if the Afghanistan withdrawal did not already teach this…


#147
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@ILikePie5
It's as if the Durham report didn't already prove Russia fed misinformation to Trump's political enemies and got away with it.
#148
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#149
Dr.Franklin
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@Vader
Fuck you, you are a piece of shit endlessly whining about me and calling me "horrid" in post after post. I am not advocating for the death of any civilians. I don't want this war as much as anyone else does. All I am saying is that we should not go into Ukraine and fight when I and most conservatives probably have more in common with Russians as opposed to the people running our current government. Why should we involve ourselves in Ukraine? 
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#150
Dr.Franklin
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@Discipulus_Didicit
You also said that you prefer an orderly society, Putin thinks you are full of shit on that as well by the way.

Putin doesn't think he is bullying anybody so point invalid