Genuine Discussions

Author: Yassine

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Yassine
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@rosends
Why does that matter? The subject here (though it should be religion) is that you have presented how YOU feel. Do you have a problem with someone pointing out that your statement is useful in understanding who YOU are?
- Is you ok? I'm not interested in rants. Do you have something tangible to say or discuss? 


By "this" do you mean "with the right words to convey the right meaning"? If so, then yes, that's how I talk to everyone. I have said what I mean. Have you? If so, then you know your position.
- Are you playing riddles? I expected nothing less.

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@Yassine
 Is you ok? I'm not interested in rants. Do you have something tangible to say or discuss? 
Yes, I is. I haven't ranted, just answered your questions. Why are you asking me if I have something tangible to say? I was the one who said something. You are the one asking questions.

Are you playing riddles? I expected nothing less.
I don't know how to "play riddles". Also, I'm not sure how you could develop any expectation. I commented on something you said and yet you seem to want to talk about all sorts of other things.
Yassine
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@rosends
- You're going round in circles. When you have something meaningful to say or something tangible to discuss then come back, this here is Genuine Discussion -you shall be welcomed.


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@Yassine
I'm just answering your questions. I have already said what I intended to say. You just keep asking about it. If you don't want to keep going in circles, stop running around.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
Thoughts on Turkey's regional geopolitical ambitions and relationships with other major regional Islamic powers?
- Very interesting question. Perhaps the short answer would be something like Ottoman legacy. Generally, where there is consensus on a foreign issue in the West, reality is the contrary. Turkey must be doing something right, at least according to the numbers. I like how you put "ambitions"! If Erdogan has anything, it's AMBITIONS! I believe there is an external story to these ambitions, & a deep covert side to the story, which I don't mind sharing here, since I'm trying to be genuine. It might get a little holy graily though. – Turkey's game is decidedly in the long haul, playing all the pieces on all the boards, on all fronts: economy, trade, industry, armament, technology, science, foreign policy, soft & hard power. The country's geopolitical position sharply accentuates its prospects: right in the middle between East & West, Europe & Asia, the EU & Russia & the Middle East. You can either become a battle ground, a buffer zone to the greater powers. Or, if you play your cards well, become the regional power, by taking advantage of your strategic location, balancing interests from all sides, & leveraging some over others.

- In 2003, Erdogan announced the Vision 2023, to make Turkey the regional power & one of the top 10 global powers. In GDP terms, the economy of Turkey more than quadrupled in the past 18 years, from $0.6T in 2002 to $2.7T last year, set to to reach $3.0T by 2023; putting the country's rank at 11th globally (in real GDP at current USD) [in contrast, the US economy less than doubled in the same period].  Vision 2023 also aimed to raise trade volume from $80B to $500B -more than a 6 times increase- by 2023. In 2021, trade volume already reached $497B. Income also rose significantly, from $9k to $33k in that same period -almost 4 times increase. Turkey was also set to become top 5 tourist destination by 2023, it's currently 6th. Turkey's S&E output grow more than 7 times the past two decades, today on par with native S&E output of countries like France & Italy. Similarly for patent applications. Also, in real industrial output, Turkey already surpassed traditional powerhouses such as France, Italy & the UK; in fact, by a significant margin (+50%). – To set such insanely ambitious goals at the onset of their campaign & even surpass them, the Turkish leadership must be discretely aiming at even greater ambitions.

- In fact, the president throughout the years made some bold announcements, which he never to deliver. For instance, joint space capabilities by 2023, & indigenous space self-reliance by 2028, by sending a man on the moon from Turkish soil with Turkish tech. Aircraft carrier, unveiled last year. 5th & 6th generation unmanned fighter jets by 2023 in prototype, & by 2028 in commercial distribution [if indeed completed, it would make Turkey the first in the race]. Nuclear reactor by 2023, & another two by 2028. The Istanbul Canal project by 2028...etc. All these illustrate the post-2018 distinctive rhetoric, aggressive & bold. After the failure of the 2016 coup d'etat in Turkey & the overly popular win in the 2018 elections, the Turkish cabinet came back with newly found solid grounds & political freedom to push their ambitions to the extremes. These were made even more tenable with the Karabakh victory in 2019, thereafter Erdogan's legitimacy shot up in the Muslim world, & especially in the Turkic world -along with the reputation of the country's defense industry. – For a while there, Erdogan seems to be at beef with literally every country in sight, aggressive rhetoric & non-compromise was the norm. After the victory, & since, the rhetoric changed into alliances & normalizations. This was one of the most transformative moments for modern Turkey in relation to its neighbors. Once Turkey proved its unyielding will & its might to back up that will with force if need be, the message was received by the others, thus a new regional dynamic emerged, where the sick man of Europe makes a leverage-replete comeback. – This can be seen clearly in the explosive rise of Turkish influence in the world. In hard power, Turkey is second only to the US in number of military bases on foreign soil, four (several other are being negotiated as we speak). In soft power, Turkey does not shy to come second only to the US in TV exports, ahead of Korea (known for their dramas).

- Turkey's population size, around 85 million today & set to breach the 100 in the coming decade, finds itself competing -economically & technologically- with second-league countries, such as Germany, Russia, Japan & Brazil. This already is regional power status. Regional powers have the ability to steer their region away from global power influence, by creating new interstate cohesion & raising the strategic leverage of neighboring countries. – Given its special geopolitical position, Turkey has more than one strategic card to play to achieve regional powerhouse. It is part of the Muslim world, the Turkic world, the Middle Eastern world, the European world, the Eurasian world, & the Asian world. Turkey is endeavoring to take leadership -or at least become an active partner- in all these worlds, in an effort to boost its international standing & gain independence from US & Western hegemony. – The recently upgraded Turkic League, with Turkish leadership, aims to recreate the EU experiment to boost trade & achieve a more stable economy. With the eastern part of Azerbaijan getting connected to mainland Turkey, Ankara gains uninterrupted access to the entire Turkic world, through the Caspian sea to Central Asia. For Turkey, this means inexhaustible energy supplies, thus energy security & additional leverage against regional competition (Russian, Iran & Saudi), also, independent trade access to much of Asia (western, southern & eastern) outside American or Russian prying hands. – Turkey's leadership in the D-8 (Indonesia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Nigeria, Egypt, Iran, & Bangladesh) may also bare significant long lasting fruits. Together, this block holds half the Muslim population (1/7th global population) & 60% of the OIC economy (1/10th global economy), will become even more imposing with their joint Islamic megabank based on Islamic finance & aimed at financing major projects & infrastructure (analog to China's ICBC) in the Muslim world, & facilitating trade with local currencies sans USD. In light of the shifting global state of affairs, the import of this move can not overstated. 

- On another front, we've been seeing very close friendship & consistent cooperation between Turkey & some specific Muslim countries, which Erdogan calls brother nations: Qatar, Pakistan, Malaysia & Azerbaijan. The fruits of these alliances for Turkey are too manifest to ignore. One is the richest country on Earth with the 3rd global gas reserves, the other is one of the nine nuclear powers & the sole Muslim one, the next is one of the leading countries in chip manufacturing & high-tech industries at the shore of the premier straight in the Globe, & the last is the de-facto door of Eurasia between Russia & the Muslim world (Iran) & a gate to Central Asia -also with huge reserves of oil & gas. Probably the most important of all these alliances, is the intense extensive military collaboration between Ankara & Islamabad, a nuclear fusion. I heard many political experts from Turkey insist that the country either already possesses nuclear capabilities or is the process of obtaining them. This will surely constitute another categorical shift in the regional standing of Turkey, even global.

- Another more subtle yet paramount aspect of Ankara's regional ambitions, is in human capital imports. The country is developing world class health, education & innovation sectors. 3 of the 10 largest hospital in the world are in Turkey, along with some of the most advanced industrial facilities, & a great number of the best universities in the region. This results in an increasing influx of bright students, skilled workers, or researches from the MENA region & South Asia (even from Eastern Europe), who otherwise traditionally sought Europe (or the US) for similar access. This is exacerbated with the rising Islamophopia in Europe, which incite muslims there to find better opportunity elsewhere. So far, Turkey has been the favored destination. A modern developed country, with abundance of amenities & accessibility, low cost of living, Muslim & stable. Increasingly, highly skilled Turks & other muslims are fleeing to Turkey from the West, bringing with them invaluable experience & skills. This is apparent in yearly scientific publication, where European countries have peaked around the 2010-2015 & are on decline, Turkey is in constant rise.

- As a major player in the Islamic world, Turkey has a very critical role. Regionally, the country has to contend with another 3 Muslim powerhouses, from different & contradictory ideological & historical backgrounds: Egypt, Saudi, & Iran. All have quite the bitter history with the Ottoman heir. Today's Egypt is the legacy of Arab nationalism, which saw Turks (Ottomans) not as protectors of the Faith as was traditionally the case, but rather as invaders & exploiters. Saudi, even worse, legacy to the most despised dynasty to the Ottomans, who are the reason Turks today hate Arabs (for being traitors). Iran, well, they are Shia, & have been at war with the Ottomans for basically ever. Turkey itself, in an internal war between European secularism & Ottoman sufism. Truly, none of these sides has any intent whatsoever to cede this contest. However, Turkey has an advantage none of the others have. It will soon become the first Muslim country in the region (& probably globally) to reach true autonomy. That is the freedom to act according to Muslim interests sans Western pressure or interference. As long as the other contenders are tied to foreign pressure, they will not be able to maintain the race. A good example of this is the recent war on usury affair. As odd as this would seem, no Muslim leader before has actually made such a declaration & succeeded. Before Erdogan, president Erbakan made similar comments, he was deposed literally one month after, 11 months into his term. During the controversy in France regarding Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) drawings last year, none of these countries have officially voiced their disapproval, except Turkey. Erdogan immediately made a speech & called for the boycott of French goods. Not even the president of Pakistan was able to express such condemnation, despite the mass protests to kick out the French ambassador. Because Pakistan's interests were too tied to France's, that the nation's military aircraft maintenance was under French supervision. It was only when Erdogan promised to fulfill & take over the French role, that the ambassador was finally expelled. – Point being, leadership without autonomy is untenable. If Turkey achieves desirable autonomy, leadership ensues. 
ResurgetExFavilla
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@Yassine
This is largely my impression as well - I see the Saudis and Iran being locked in a deathmatch, with Turkey steadily, quietly building regional influence and flexing its muscles in a restrained way (northern Syria and the Azerbaijan-Armenian conflict). One thing that I find interesting is the Istanbul canal project - the circumvention of the Montreux Convention would completely upend the geopolitical balance in the region and put many of the most critical cards in Turkey's hands regarding both trade and military traffic through the Bosporus.

I also find the usury stuff interesting. I wasn't aware of that development, and I hope that they succeed in challenging insane Western views on the topic.

17 days later

Bones
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@Yassine
What do you think of the Kalam Cosmological argument? 
Yassine
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@Bones
What do you think of the Kalam Cosmological argument? 
- You mean this? 
P1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
P2. The universe began to exist.
C. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

- I don't like this formulation too much because it's badly worded, it kinda begs the question -'begin' kinda assumes a time frame. The original formulation comes from Ash'ari Islamic Theology called Dalil  al-Huduth, Although it's tricky to translate it from Arabic into English, it should probably go something like this:
Pu. Whatever event has a cause for its eventuality,
Pp. The world is an event,
C. Therefore, the world has a cause for its eventuality.

- The above argument along with Dalil al-Imkan & Dalil al-Nathm are the main proofs of God according to the Ash'ari school. Dalil al-Huduth is the most powerful & soundest proof of God. The Ash'ari school reject most other proofs for being invalid, such as the ontological arguments, some versions of the cosmological argument...etc.

195 days later

Shila
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@Yassine
! I love destroying opponents. However, I wanna try something different instead.
Muslims wanting to destroy their opponents is hardly new or radical.
Now Muslims trying something different instead might be one for the record. 
Is it because Islam is reaching equality with Christianity in numbers, so slitting the throats of infidels is less necessary?

63 days later

Yassine
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@Shila
Muslims wanting to destroy their opponents is hardly new or radical.
- This is a debate website. It's literally meant for destroying opponents. Ain't nothing Muslim about it.


Now Muslims trying something different instead might be one for the record.  Is it because Islam is reaching equality with Christianity in numbers, so slitting the throats of infidels is less necessary?
- You are projecting. Not because you do it, then everyone else must do it too. 
Shila
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@Yassine
-> @Shila
Muslims wanting to destroy their opponents is hardly new or radical.
- This is a debate website. It's literally meant for destroying opponents. Ain't nothing Muslim about it.


Now Muslims trying something different instead might be one for the record.  Is it because Islam is reaching equality with Christianity in numbers, so slitting the throats of infidels is less necessary?
- You are projecting. Not because you do it, then everyone else must do it too.
The Muslim logic behind throat slitting.

Muslims believe cutting the foreskin around the head of the penis (circumcision) will cause the penis to behave.
Applying the same logic slitting a persons throat which is just below a persons head will also cause the infidel to behave.
But when you look at the millions of Muslim refugees fleeing their country. One might ask why Muslims are okay with circumcision but slit the throats of infidels because they want only infidels to behave . It’s a double standard.

Yassine
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@Shila
The Muslim logic behind throat slitting.
Muslims believe cutting the foreskin around the head of the penis (circumcision) will cause the penis to behave.
Applying the same logic slitting a persons throat which is just below a persons head will also cause the infidel to behave.
- I gotta admit, I laughed when I first read this. This is new sh*t I ain't seen before. Genuinely clever. I was gunna respond, but I'll let you have this one. Until next time.


But when you look at the millions of Muslim refugees fleeing their country. One might ask why Muslims are okay with circumcision but slit the throats of infidels because they want only infidels to behave . It’s a double standard.
- The countries which your countries decimated & pillaged. 

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@Yassine
Countries are generally inert land masses with phoney borders.

It's people who fail to concur on what bit of ideological nonsense is best.

And who then go on to decimate and pillage and do all that decimation and pillage involves.

Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Jew, Iranian, American, Indian, Israeli.

Countries are awash with clever stupid people.

Or is it stupid clever people?
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@Yassine

--> @Shila
The Muslim logic behind throat slitting.
Muslims believe cutting the foreskin around the head of the penis (circumcision) will cause the penis to behave.
Applying the same logic slitting a persons throat which is just below a persons head will also cause the infidel to behave.
- I gotta admit, I laughed when I first read this. This is new sh*t I ain't seen before. Genuinely clever. I was gunna respond, but I'll let you have this one. Until next time.
Muslim men in Iran go through great effort to cut their foreskin so that their dick  head is exposed. But want their women to cover their head with a hijab or face the morality police. The women in Iran are protesting this double standard and public shaming.