USA - A Backsliding Democracy

Author: Double_R

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@Greyparrot
. You and DoubleR advocate for remove the cooling down period for voting and with the same breath lament the amount of people responding and voting due to "anger politics"
What do you mean "cooling down period for voting"? I'm not familiar with that phrase. And I never lamented anyone voting for any reason at all. You want to vote over anger? Go ahead! Uh oh, you voted angry and now you regret it? well, be an adult and learn the lesson not to do it next time, or don't, it's your right. 

We have a right to own a firearm too but we sensibly know that removing the cooldown periods to buy one to prevent people from making long lasting snap decisions in anger would be foolish and socially irresponsible. A convenient vote in anger is even more catastrophic because the government has much more power to take life than any one individual and the impacts can last beyond any one individual's life for generations.
You probably don't mean what you're actually saying here, because one person's vote in a country of 300M people is in no way more catastrophic than one person with a gun firing out of a Las Vegas hotel window. I get what you're saying I think, that people should endeavor to educate themselves on what they're voting for. They don't. Furthermore it's unconstitutional, unAmerican and undemocratic to require them to do so. The right is very, very, very simple. You can vote for a person because they have the same middle name, or because you like their take on foreign policy, the vote counts the same, should do, and should always. Perhaps we've lost the plot a little. And frankly equating the right to vote with the right to bear arms seems quite a false equivalence to me, as in general conservative people seem to believe any legislation to control firearms at all is basically the first step toward England taking over the country. Different topic. 

If you are flippant with people opting out of Democracy, I find it equally weird that you do not think it fundamentally weakens it.
How would someone taking their right to vote and deciding not to exercise it fundamentally weaken democracy? Specifically. Was I weakening democracy by not voting?

What exactly are you advocating for? What is the problem (I thought it was people not participating in voting and you definitely cited lobbyists as at least a part of the problem) you're trying to elucidate here? Is it voter participation? Is it voter awareness of issues? 
Greyparrot
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 And frankly equating the right to vote with the right to bear arms seems quite a false equivalence to me.

Why though? Why does one right come with responsibilities and checks and another one does not?

Who do you think benefits more honestly and please don't bring up partisanship and rhetorical talking points with this topic again. Think as an independent. 

Who benefits more from unregulated voting, the public or the politicians?


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@Greyparrot
The public. 

Your question is seriously not "Why are guns more regulated than voting," is it? I can't walk into a store and mass vote 25 people to death.
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@ludofl3x
Well we will have to fundamentally disagree then.

I am not a believer that there are only 2 choices to managing American rights, namely
either over-regulation or no regulation. And I think if people blindly went down the rabbithole of the rhetoric that promotes that false dichotomy, they will discover a world of bad consequences even worse than the ones we suffer through today.
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@ludofl3x
I'd say the law has the potential for 'more danger than guns, rather than less.
Far reaching effects, forced compliance, currents of change, influence, and the shaping of the nation.
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@Lemming
Statistically, it's far more likely for any individual to fall victim to abuse perpetrated by the government than any one person with a gun.

Ex-Governor Cuomo literally killed 30,000 people in New York with the stroke of a pen. That is true power to be feared.
Double_R
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@Greyparrot
I value quality over quantity. Is that wrong? I'd rather have voters who care enough about voting to make an effort instead of excuses.
Yes, it’s very wrong, because voting is a constitutional right and essential to everything democracy is supposed to stand for. It’s not up to you or anyone else to decide what qualifies any US citizen to be able to cast a ballot. It’s not up to you or anyone else to decide what hoops are appropriate to make someone jump through in order to show you that they’re worthy of that privilege.

I understand the irritation. Imagine how irritated I feel every time I see a Trump supporter talking about how they’re going to stop the dems and their child sex trafficking ring out of their local pizzeria. It’s maddening, but the solution is not to hand someone the keys to deciding who’s ignorance they are going to target, the solution is to drown out people like that by letting everyone have their say. And if that doesn’t work then like I said, we get the government we deserve.

Here is where we part ways. To continue to believe the lies DC says about the faults of the public can only end in civil war, and I would rather that happen after I am dead.
This is why you are unserious to talk to. I just made a point about where the fault lies and instead of addressing it you just dismiss it as me “believing the lies DC says”. That’s just plain stupid. The implication here of course being that I’m not thinking for myself but yet you apparently are. Well if that’s the case then come back with an actual response instead of your usual projection.

Our politicians are a reflection of us, and what we care about they will focus on. It’s not DC that needs fixing, it’s us.
100 million people disagree.
First of all so what of they do? This is a debate site, perhaps as someone who thinks for himself you have some actual thoughts to share?

But more to the point, this has nothing to do with what I just said. Unless you are going to claim that the person who gets the most votes doesn’t actually take office, the politicians are the very people that we sent there to represent us. That’s a fact, would you like to address it?



ludofl3x
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@Double_R
This is why you are unserious to talk to
That, and not the part where this guy says voting is more harmful to America at large than gun violence? I guess spoiled for choice. :)
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@ludofl3x
You speak like someone who has never been abused by the government. Congratulations on your privilege.

BTW, the government has perpetuated more "gun violence" than all private Americans collectively. That's a fact.

You'd be surprised to know there were less than a hundred actual shootouts in the 1800's despite what Hollywood taught you about American history, but far more were killed by the American cavalry.
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@Double_R
the politicians are the very people that we sent there to represent us. That’s a fact, would you like to address it?

All politicians represent themselves. I don't know where you came up with this line.

but the solution is not to hand someone the keys...
The elite rich in DC don't give away keys. I don't know where you got this line either, but it sounds nice.
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@Greyparrot
You speak like someone who has never been abused by the government. Congratulations on your privilege.
And you speak like some college dropout who blames the government for all his problems. 

BTW, the government has perpetuated more "gun violence" than all private Americans collectively. 
RIght, because everyone knows most people referring to gun violence are talking about military engagements. 
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@ludofl3x
RIght, because everyone knows most people referring to gun violence are talking about military engagements. 
not necessarily. The massive amounts of gun violence the past 2 years have come from the government disbanding the police. It has nothing to do with the military.
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@ludofl3x
And you speak like some college dropout who blames the government for all his problems. 
Me personally, I don't have much of a personal grudge against the government. In fact, due to the government's incompetence, they paid me an outrageous amount of money to quit my job, and they had no authority to stop me from making 10x my investment in crypto. So I am basically semi-retired due to essentially a government fuckup.

I just feel bad for my neighborhood when people lose their standard of living due to people in DC that don't care about them.
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@ludofl3x
You can be a college dropout who goes very far left-wing as your problems are what lead you to realise everyone needs help from time to time.

No need for that ad hominem attack.
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I thought we'd moved into the portion of the discussion where we made unjustified assumptions about each other, as the post I responded to included one about me, and I don't think college dropout is necessarily an attack, but you're not wrong. 
Double_R
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@ludofl3x
This is why you are unserious to talk to
That, and not the part where this guy says voting is more harmful to America at large than gun violence? I guess spoiled for choice. :)
People say dumb things all the time, at least when one is being serious you can talk through it to the point where it gets clarified or corrected. GP is not interested in that. Look at his response to me in post 100. All he’s interested in are one liners and gotcha’s, and even then only one liners and gotcha’s that make sense to him.
Greyparrot
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Elon Musk, famous solution provider and investor, at a recent summit correctly described todays crony government.

"The government is simply the the biggest corporation with a monopoly on violence"
This is why unregulated voting is dangerous. (or unregulated anything for that matter)
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@Double_R
Look at his response to me in post 100.
Heaven forbid someone would take offense at your cockneyed platitudes regarding "keys" as if it were to be taken seriously in any sense of the term.

Or the fact that you flippantly ignore the objectively provable necessary narcisisstic traits required to become part of the DC club today, contrary to your empty platitudes of "representing the people"

Oh shame on those who would dare disagree! The only thing "unserious" is the consistent and predictable empty unsupported rhetoric. Flowery words meaning really nothing.

Defend your position or not. It doesn't matter to me.
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@Greyparrot
For someone so fond of responding to entire paragraphs with on liners, constantly dismissing others view points as the mere product of ‘what they were told’, and acting like anyone who believes in the idea of government is guilty of some naïve unshakable trust in the elites… you sure have a problem with anything you see as empty rhetoric.

I gave you a whole two paragraph argument about how it’s not your place or anyone else’s to decide what qualifies any US citizen as sufficiently educated or motivated enough to vote, all you heard was that I used the word “keys”. But I’m the one focused on platitudes. It’s just plain stupid.
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@Double_R
I gave you a whole two paragraph argument about how it’s not your place or anyone else’s to decide what qualifies any US citizen as sufficiently educated or motivated enough to vote, 

And I disagree that the ONLY unregulated constitutional right should conveniently be the ONLY one where the government is held accountable. That is how you get elections with zero safeguards when there are zero regulations.

The fact that you defend an absurd position of zero regulations regarding voting makes me think you aren't thinking clearly enough about the issue. Or maybe not seriously enough.
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@Greyparrot
I never said anything about unregulated voting, you made that up. I’m talking about voting being accessible and made as easy as possible for all citizens. You are arguing that it’s ok *principally* to make people jump through hoops to vote as a demonstration of their education level or motivation to vote. The idea that this is principally terrible policy does not mean we do nothing to ensure elections are secure.
Greyparrot
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voting being accessible and made as easy as possible for all citizens.

That's the very definition of unregulated voting. No restriction on anyone alive in America, regardless of age, or criminal mental condition, or ability to get a photo ID.

I'd imagine even if they were to somehow charge all 500 for felony insurrection on Jan 6 you would be scrambling to remove the barriers that might prevent them from voting even though they actively destroyed your democracy.  What a ridiculous cross to die on, a right to vote free from ANY government interference in ALL cases.

Pretty soon we will have voting by interpretive dance as the government under the current fad of unregulated voting shouldn't restrict a person's method of voting. That's the result of unregulated voting. Chaos and deregulation of any sensible rule to ensure a fair election system.

There is a huge difference between "easy as possible" and "easy as practical"
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@Greyparrot
That's the very definition of unregulated voting.
No, it’s not. Regulations are rules, so unregulated voting would be voting with no rules. That’s an absurd interpretation of everything I’ve argued. Your entire post is one big strawman.

I'd imagine even if they were to somehow charge all 500 for felony insurrection on Jan 6 you would be scrambling to remove the barriers that might prevent them from voting even though they actively destroyed your democracy.
Correct, until their citizenship is renounced they should all retain their right to vote.

What a ridiculous cross to die on, a right to vote free from ANY government interference in ALL cases.
Guaranteeing a constitutional right to all Americans is a ridiculous cross to die on? Wow GP, you have an interesting definition of ridiculous.

Those 500 or so individuals from all over the country are beyond unlikely to turn any election. But you know what is far more likely to make a difference? Picking and choosing which segments of the population get to be privileged enough to vote.

If you are going to respond to anything I have to say in this post respond to this; the way we deal with ignorance and/or malice within our voting population is to drown out those individuals with educated or well intentioned voters. And if that doesn’t work because the population at large is ignorant or malicious enough to put “the wrong” politician in office then we get the government we deserve. We are all subject to the same laws and governed by the same authorities, therefore everyone gets a say in what that governing authority should look like.

That’s not rhetoric, that’s not left wing talking points, that’s not propaganda, it’s the most basic idea of democracy.

That's the result of unregulated voting. Chaos and deregulation of any sensible rule to ensure a fair election system.
No, that’s the result of having only one party in this country that cares about democracy and the other party obsessed with fantasies of rampant voter fraud. If we had two parties working together to find ways to make voting both easier and more secure we could solve these issues pretty quickly.

And the term “as easy as possible” is a colloquialism. No I’m not arguing that we have to allow everything  which doesn’t violate the laws of physics. Of course practicality is taken into account. If you actually cared about understanding opposing points of view you would have picked up on that.
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@Double_R
 Of course practicality is taken into account.

Like what restrictions are you ok with voting? restricting kids? Felons? Domestic Terrorists? Crazy people?
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@Greyparrot
I think the answer is already there in his post: adult citizen of the US. It is the right of EVERY AMERICAN over 18 years old, full stop. It is really not difficult to grasp. There are no other conditions nor should there be. 
Double_R
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@Greyparrot
The only restriction I can see when it comes to who can vote would be someone not capable of making decisions for themselves, like children or mentality disabled. That’s it.

I can understand restricting felons or someone convicted of terrorism, but I’m still against that because this is an insignificant portion of the population. Upholding the principal that *everyone* can vote is more important.
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@Double_R
I'm just trying to be clear here. crazy people...ok to regulate voting

Domestic terrorists, not ok to regulate a right.
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@Greyparrot
My god dude, why is this so difficult? Let’s make this really simple…

Someone who has the ability to make their own decisions… ok to vote.

Someone who cannot make their own decisions, not ok to vote.

If we follow this principal, we end up with the politician whom the people *decided* on.

Is that simple enough? Are you going to keep going down this road looking for gotcha’s, or are you finally going to address the point I have been making for at least 3-4 posts now?
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@Double_R
Someone who cannot make their own decisions, not ok to vote.

I disagree that we should let domestic terrorists vote. I think the country is better off regulating that right like they regulate all rights, not just on the basis of mental capacity but also whether or not they are a direct threat to the country.
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@Greyparrot
The difference between us when it comes to domestic terrorists is that I believe in the principal, you don’t. But we’ve already established that.

Let’s try this again…

If you are going to respond to anything I have to say in this post respond to this; the way we deal with ignorance and/or malice within our voting population is to drown out those individuals with educated or well intentioned voters. And if that doesn’t work because the population at large is ignorant or malicious enough to put “the wrong” politician in office then we get the government we deserve. We are all subject to the same laws and governed by the same authorities, therefore everyone gets a say in what that governing authority should look like.

That’s not rhetoric, that’s not left wing talking points, that’s not propaganda, it’s the most basic idea of democracy.