Postmodernism and the far left’s war against reality

Author: cristo71

Posts

Total: 62
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@ludofl3x
I would guesstimate about 20% of the left is far left. That only tells part of the story though. Think of the “80/20 rule” as an example: “20% of the fishermen catch 80% of the fish” and so forth. Academia has a larger influence on the social zeitgeist than the number of educators would suggest. A company’s HR department might make up 10% of the employees, but they account for 50% of the hiring decisions, and so on…

In summation, postmodernism has a larger influence on the West currently than the number of literal adherents would suggest. Many people probably don’t even realize how influenced they are by it.
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@cristo71
I would guesstimate about 20% of the left is far left. 
What's that guesstimate based on? 
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@ludofl3x
Oh, various and sundry things, I guess… life experience, political awareness, Bernie Sanders’ popularity, protest crowds last year and their popularity, vocally left college students, various educators, school boards, political pundits and their popularity, “the squad” and their popularity, the over enrollment in social studies versus STEM careers in upper education, to name some things that come to mind…

thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@cristo71
Yes, as best I can tell, the deep seated impulse that drives leftist politics is to liberate humanity from all non consensual social organization, especially with regards to hierarchies. This is why they pull and pull and pull until there's nothing left but a thread. Once you realize this, almost everything makes sense. Whether they realize it or not the endgame of leftist politics is an undifferentiated mass of humanity where no one can be forced to do anything, even face others silent judgement, on account of their clan, tribe, nationality, race, religion, etc.--anything they did not choose. The runaway train really started once it was realized that it simply isn't possible to totally remove the differences (and therefore the inequality stemming from those differences) between clans, tribes, nationalities, races, and religions, and therefore those things must be destroyed.  Where liberalism started out breaking down feudal obligations, it has now creeped up to the point where as you point out even the reality of gender itself is under the microscope, something that was totally unquestioned in Western civilization for millennia.

The right in the West has no effective answer because their political foundation is also based around classical liberalism, and so they're basically sitting ducks when the left extends the principles that the right holds to chip away at traditional society generation after generation. This is because, ultimately, the society that rightists claim that they want (for example one of honor, duty, family, God, patriotism, etc) simply is not supported by the philosophical ideals they claim at the same time to hold. You mention that the enlightenment was the high point of civilization, but from the very beginning the principles of the enlightenment were used to demolish the pre-existing social structure of feudalism with its hierarchies. The society of complex interactions between lord and peasant, church and aristocracy, the monarch and God Himself was gradually replaced with a rationalized social contract between the atomized citizen and the centralized state.

Notably studies have found that leftists are far more concerned with fairness while conservatives are more concerned with things authority and purity. This throws the mental flaws of both camps into relief in my opinion. Reality is inherently unequal, and it is unequal in certain ways that leftists will NEVER accept. It is actually right and just that the worthy are rewarded for their talents and abilities, that they live better lives than the less talented, and undermining their ability to do so undermines the good. I know leftists on this thread will vehemently disagree with what I say, but this is simply how I see it. Conservatives on the other hand are easily led down rabbit holes by hucksters. See: the two most recent Republican Presidents, who were polar opposites in everything except clearly taking advantage of the base for their own purposes (and doing so easily.) The anti-vaccine nonsense is another great example of this fault.

If the lefts goal is an undifferentiated mass of humanity, the goal of the modern right is for that same thing but maybe a little slower and with guns, or something. Notice how quickly ideas that were complete nonstarters for hundreds of years such as gay marriage or transgenderism became hegemonic, and how impotent the right is in the face of whatever the left happens to demand this decade. It's because the right totally lacks a sound philosophical basis. In the end, objective morality comes from God or it does not exist. If objective morality does not exist, the conservative is unable to argue against a social change by virtue of its sheer *wrongness* and instead has to contend with a complicated mix of popular opinion, harm vs benefit, etc--but these things, unlike God's divine will, actually ARE subjective and subject to constant change. Good luck squaring that circle in an explicitly secular and classically liberal country. The right will continue to have electoral victories, and the "woke" hegemony may prove so toxic that the right gets a rare long-term cultural win, but overall I don't see this train stopping any time soon. It left the station centuries ago.
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
no one can be forced to do anything, even face others silent judgement, on account of their clan, tribe, nationality, race, religion, etc
This is the exact opposite of how I view things. I quite often do things I don't want to do because I feel like I have an obligation to my family, my ancestors, etc. Or because something is how men ought to behave behave, whether I like it or not
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
This, from Double_R, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about:

And gender confusion is a typical right wing strawman. No one is claiming the biological sex of the person is up for debate.
Sure, the left may not object to the existence of biological sex. But they sure as hell object to any attempt to inscribe MEANING to that reality. If we are free to choose even our gender, in defiance of our very DNA itself, than we are nothing but what we choose to be. That idea may sound nice in principle but in reality it has a lot of...problems. In my opinion, anyway. 
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@cristo71
It sounds like how you feel is what you're basing your estimate on, I was kind of hoping for data we could agree on as a baseline. Like "Bernie Sanders Popularity," how are you even gauging that, for example. "Certain schoolboards," are those the ones that you read about in your newsfeed? Far left schoolboards? I'm almost there on the 'over enrollment in social studies versus STEM careers,' can you show the numbers and tell me why you think the balance is unusual or a problem? 

If it's just how you feel the world is, then we don't have a basis for discussion at all. 
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@ludofl3x
You asked for MY personal estimate, not for me to do an internet search for you. Perhaps I interpreted your question too literally, but I thought, “Surely, he’s not asking me to do an internet search FOR him, is he? No, he just wants to know what my guesstimate is.” And you ignored almost all of what I said in my first response to you. It seems that I was mistaken to give you the benefit of the doubt. Noted.

There are people (pollsters) who estimate these things for a living. This might be news to you, but I am not one of them. Here’s one of them, even though you could have done the same thing yourself (I hope):

ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@cristo71
I asked what you based your guesstimate on, and you linked me to something that says "progressive left" (which doesn't seem the same as 'left wing' as I understand the term), representative of less than 1 in 10 people in a population, are largely democrats and they like various politicians they seem to think identify with their same goals. Your guesstimate was twice this number and based on 'personal experience.' Your data doesn't come from that research, because it doesn't match. I don't have any problem with you saying "because I feel like those numbers don't reflect what I've experienced," but that's your feeling, not a number. Not data. 
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@ludofl3x
*sigh* You really aren’t understanding the timeline here. I looked up the Pew polling data AFTER you expressed your disappointment over me giving you my personal, spitball estimate (which is what you asked for the way you worded your initial request, by the way).

It has been clear to me since your post #37 that if you were less lazy and more honest, you would have answered your own question through your own research and perhaps even offered up a link to at least one reputable pollster yourself instead of baiting me or whatever it is you are trying to accomplish.


Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@thett3
 an undifferentiated mass of humanity where no one can be forced to do anything, even face others silent judgement, on account of their clan, tribe, nationality, race, religion, etc.--anything they did not choose. 

This completely explains how a police station was allowed to be burned down. That's not something common in any nation before.
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@thett3
You offer up a lot to chew on there! I’ll just start slow and in small bites:

Whether they realize it or not the endgame of leftist politics is an undifferentiated mass of humanity where no one can be forced to do anything, even face others silent judgement, on account of their clan, tribe, nationality, race, religion, etc.--anything they did not choose.
I’m not getting the “silent judgment” reference, but… I would summarize it as the progressive/leftist/far-left ultimately wants a collectivist utopia, where envy doesn’t have an opportunity to really develop. It wasn’t until AOC made a reference to supporting people “who either are unable or *unwilling* to work” that I realized what such a utopia might offer. That blew my mind, that she ultimately wants to accommodate a person’s unwillingness to work.

therefore those things must be destroyed. 
I’m not understanding this interpretation— “those things” being clan, tribe, race, nationality, religions…
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@Greyparrot
This completely explains how a police station was allowed to be burned down. That's not something common in any nation before.
lol well the motivations for THAT sort of thing are a lot worse....and the best analysis of that kind of resentment based destructiveness comes from your friendly neighborhood eco-terrorist, Ted K. but remember that political coalitions are made up of groups of people, many (most?) leftists are just following the enlightenment ideals that underpin our society to their logical conclusion as opposed to being motivated purely by resentment. The type unleashed in 2020 are more of the latter type unfortunately. What happened in 2020 with the Bail Project is eerily similar to how during the Bolshevik revolution the reds would empty out the prisons and use the prisoners as a weapon to terrorize the population
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@cristo71
I’m not getting the “silent judgment” reference, but… I would summarize it as the progressive/leftist/far-left ultimately wants a collectivist utopia, where envy doesn’t have an opportunity to really develop. It wasn’t until AOC made a reference to supporting people “who either are unable or *unwilling* to work” that I realized what such a utopia might offer. That blew my mind, that she ultimately wants to accommodate a person’s unwillingness to work.
That's more or less what I mean. 

Reality is what it is, but a certain breed of leftists will do their damndest to brute force it into the shape they wish that it was. The best current example of this is the educational policies you are now finding on the extreme left--there has been talk of abolishing advanced classes and many universities have already abolished the usage of standardized tests. Why? Because the objective results of those classes and tests paint a picture that contradicts their view of reality, so better to shut the data off entirely. How they reconcile this cognitive dissonance I don't understand at all. There is a super dangerous undercurrent of people who are deeply, deeply DEEPLY (like to their very bones) committed to equality realizing that reality is inherently unequal, realizing also that their efforts to bring the bottom up have largely failed, and so now striving to bring down the top down
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@thett3
The right in the West has no effective answer because their political foundation is also based around classical liberalism, and so they're basically sitting ducks when the left extends the principles that the right holds to chip away at traditional society generation after generation. This is because, ultimately, the society that rightists claim that they want (for example one of honor, duty, family, God, patriotism, etc) simply is not supported by the philosophical ideals they claim at the same time to hold.
Can you give a more detailed explanation on this?

As I stated previously, Democrats and Republicans both are rooted in classically liberal principles (liberty, self determination, shared values, etc.) So, it isn’t the right alone, I would say. The problem is that postmodernist influences are growing outside of merely politics itself. Corporate CEO’s for example, give lip service to a socialist movement while being obviously capitalist themselves. Even if done out of pure cynicism (don’t want to lose their business!), it illustrates the traction such an ideology can attain.

cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@thett3
Exactly.

There seems to be a philosophical undercurrent regarding the fickle fortunes of birth. It is definitely true enough— people are born into vastly different levels of fortune— but some leftists actually believe they can “cure” it fairly. This undercurrent even proposes that work ethic is an inborn, immutable trait. Hence, AOC’s reference to being “unwilling to work.” As if to say, “It isn’t truly your fault that you don’t have a great work ethic. You shouldn’t have to live in deprivation because of that.”

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@thett3
Postmodernism in a nutshell.

Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,258
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@cristo71
How and where do you believe it contradicts or at least fails to support what I’m saying?
You didn’t give one example to support your central claim; that postmodernism “has since grown into all of the West’s institutions”.

Where can you concede it does support some of what I’m saying?
I can’t concede anything there until you can give a concrete example of what you are talking about. You claimed in your OP that postmodernism is responsible for a “downslide” in our society since the enlightenment in addition to growing into all of the West’s institutions, so you’re not talking about some small fringe group as you later suggested by referring to it as the “far left”. You’ll need to clarify that.

cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@Double_R
See? You’re not even trying to correlate the contents of the article I linked— just for you— with what I have been saying. *sigh* I will help answer for you my question to you, but you’re trying my patience, honestly. From the article (which I didn’t read before I wrote the OP, for what it’s worth):

“Because the established discourses of the Enlightenment are more or less arbitrary and unjustified, they can be changed; and because they more or less reflect the interests and values of the powerful, they should be changed. Thus postmodernists regard their theoretical position as uniquely inclusive and democratic, because it allows them to recognize the unjust hegemony of Enlightenment discourses over the equally valid perspectives of nonelite groups. In the 1980s and ’90s, academic advocates on behalf of various ethnic, cultural, racial, and religious groups embraced postmodern critiques of contemporary Western society, and postmodernism became the unofficial philosophy of the new movement of “identity politics.”
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@Double_R
Examples of recent postmodernist influence:

BLM’s stated desire to do away with the nuclear family

When prosecutors look to “reform” the criminal justice system, and crime increases under their watch.

When a gang shootout occurs, resulting in multiple deaths, and the DA decides not to press charges because the shootout was consensual.

When a group of doctors issues a statement that racism is deadlier than COVID,  so BLM protesters who congregate yet neglect to wear masks can do so with the doctors’ professional blessing. (Mentioned this one earlier, but not to you directly).

When a mayor has the police evacuate their station because maintaining law and order has become too dangerous.

When universities drop standardized testing entrance requirements because they do not yield the desired outcome. (This was posited by thett already, but not to you directly)

When arson and property damage are not considered violence depending upon the group identity of who is doing the damage.

Defunding the police while expecting crime as well as vigilantism not to increase. Also, defunding the police while expecting police officers to become more highly trained.

The “Abolish ICE” movement

In Seattle schools, mathematics is studied in the context of group identity and oppression.

Associating things like work ethic and punctuality with “whiteness.”
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@cristo71
The Enlightenment was a high point in Western civilization;
agree.
it has been on a downhill slide from there in recent times.
disagree.  I'd hardly call abolition, feminism, indoor toilets, refrigeration, flight, automobiles, televisions, epidemiology, robots on Mars, etc., etc., etc... a downhill trajectory.  The Enlightenment was an improvement on the Renaissance but I'd argue that each era since the 13th century is an improvement on the last from the big picture, Western Civ perspective.

What is postmodernism? It posits the subjectivity of truth.
Not quite.

From Wikipedia:

"Postmodern thinkers frequently describe knowledge claims and value systems as contingent or socially-conditioned, framing them as products of political, historical, or cultural discourses and hierarchies. These thinkers often view personal and spiritual needs as being best fulfilled by improving social conditions and adopting more fluid discourses, in contrast to modernism, which places a higher degree of emphasis on maximizing progress and which generally regards the promotion of objective truths as an ideal form of discourse. Some philosophers assert that those who employ postmodernist discourse are prey to a performative contradiction and a paradox of self-reference, as their critique would be impossible without the concepts and methods that modern reason provides."

So, Postmodernism is skeptical about the objectivity of many factual claims but that's not quite the same thing as saying that all truth is subjective.  A Postmodern Architect like Michael Graves might be skeptical of Minimalism or the maxim that form should follow function but he's not saying that the load-bearing capacity of a steel beam depends on your perspective.  I don't think most Post-Modernists would deny the existence of facts but might assert that their list of objective, verified, and knowable facts is far smaller than society supposes.

From there, one arrives at moral relativism, cultural relativism, and neo Marxism.
  • To say that moral or cultural relativism are somehow more Left than Right is deluded.  All Americans are moral relativists from birth. Our Founding Fathers understood slavery was a great evil and an essential cheap labor if the South was to compete in the burgeoning Industrial Era. They held two opposite and intercancelling moral viewpoints, cemented the paradox into out Declaration of Independence and Constitution and consciously laid the foundation for the American Civil War.  Lincoln's moral relativism was exclusively focused on maximizing American power.  In August 1862, Lincoln stated: "If I could save the union without freeing any slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."  Such a platform is not at all leftist but a perfect example of American comfort with moral relativism even before the term Post-Modernism was coined. 
  • Is there a more famous moral relativist than Donald Trump?  
    • "you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides." [defending neo-Nazi rally]
    • "What, do you think our country’s so innocent?” [re: Putin's record of political assassination]
    • Ten years ago, Roger Kimball was the Right's leading crusader crying wolf over the Left's moral relativism, now he defends Trump in the most relativist terms possible:
      • I’d say that [Trump's] “praise for dictators” was really praise for their possible good behavior or acquiescence to policies that the president thought were in our national interest. One might agree or disagree in this or that case, thinking the president ought to have said or done this instead of that. But that is my point: the issues are debatable, not settled.
  • What evidence can you present that the Left is more relativist than the Right?  I say the opposite is more likely to be true.
  • I'm not sure neo-Marxism is even real, much less some guiding principle of the American Left.
    • To quote Marx: "ce qu'il y a de certain c'est que moi, je ne suis pas Marxiste."  If the man supposed to embody the ideology rejects that ideology on first hearing than the ideology is essentially undefined- a long-standing invitation to trolls.  
    • If the conservative anxieties about cultural Marxism reflected reality, we would expect to see academic publications on Marx, Gramsci and critical theorists crowding out libertarian, liberal and conservative voices.  To test this, [Philosophy professor Matthew Sharpe] conducted quantitative research on the academic database JStor, tracking the frequency of names and key ideas in all academic article and chapter titles published globally between 1980 and 2019 and concluded:
      • By 1987, more academic articles were being published about Nietzsche than Marx.
      • The last four decades have seen a relative decline of Marxist thought in academia. Its influence has been superseded by “post-structuralist” (or “postmodernist”) thinkers like Jacques Derrida, Michel Foucault, Judith Butler and Deleuze.
        • Let's note that where Cristo71 blames Postmodernism for the rise of Marxism, Dr. Sharpe states that Postmodernism supplanted Marxism in academic articles and that Postmodernist  Post-structuralism is primarily indebted to thinkers of the European “conservative revolution” led by Nietzsche and Heidegger.
        • Where Marxism is built on hopes for reason, revolution and social progress, post-structuralist thinkers roundly reject such optimistic “grand narratives”.
        • Quantitative research bears out the idea that “cultural Marxism” is indeed a “post-factual dog whistle” and an intellectual confusion masquerading as higher insight.
          • A recent poll of 596 contributors to r/Economics on Reddit found that the Austrian School was most popular while Marxism came in fourth with 11% adherents.  No contributors ascribed to neo-Marxism at all- while even "ass-fucker" got one vote.  Reddit may not be the place to decisively conclude that neo-Marxism is less popular than ass-fuckery but it's hard to make the case that neo-Marxism is taking over Leftist thinking when nobody knows what it means, fewer academics are writing about it, and even Redditors don't give a shit.
Classical liberalism has adhered to the objectivity of truth, whereas leftism seems to embrace postmodernism.
The burden of proof is yours to demonstrate this embrace- not just that you can find some postmodernist Leftist but that post-Modernism itself is more popular on the Left than the Right, I just don't see any evidence that this is true.

If you ever hear someone declaring that society needs to “reimagine” something, that is likely postmodernist thinking.
Well, that's just bullshit.  Mirriam-Webster selects example sentences automatically from various online news sources to reflect current usage of the word 'reimagine.' 

Out of 7 random selections, 2 come from Fortune, two from Forbes and one from the National Review.
— Jane Thier, Fortune, 10 Nov. 2021
.— Nicholas Phillips, National Review, 19 Oct. 2021
Vulture, 5 Nov. 2021
.— Cheryl Dorsey, Fortune, 28 Oct. 2021
.— Dr. Tj Jiang, Forbes, 18 Oct. 2021
.— Los Angeles Times, 15 Oct. 2021
— oregonlive, 6 Oct. 2021
— Babu Sivadasan, Forbes, 27 Sep. 2021
You know who says re-imagine more than anybody else?  Wall Street.  I'll leave it to Cristo to explain how Wall St is the new bastion of post-Modernism.

Just some of the telltale results are:  moral confusion, gender confusion, identity politics, anti-capitalism, collectivism, anti-Westernism, anti-patriotism, and even skepticism over the inherent objectivity of mathematics.
Thoughtcrime!  Doubleplusungood!

Postmodernism abhors criticism of all cultures except for Western, European cultures.
Bullshit.  Defend this claim.

at least Christianity places a high value on objectivity and fundamental truths.
Faith requires an absence of objective truths.  If a claim is objectively true, then the claim requires no faith to demonstrate its truth.  Faith, by definition, is the acceptance as truth in the absence of any proof.

Postmodernism is actually reducing society’s trust in institutions (such as science in this case) even further because it is detracting from the rigor and trustworthiness that adhering to objectivity provides.
That is, in the age of COVID, you are asserting that the Left is reducing trust in Science, not the "death by anti-vax" Right.
That is, post Jan 6th, you are asserting that the Left erodes society's trust in institutions more than the "Stop the Steal" Right.

People of faith will not be convinced to trust science more anytime soon if they feel it has been tainted by the ideological agenda of Postmodernism.
People of faith can only trust science up to the point that science discredits their belief system, therefore people of faith have always and will always distrust science to an important degree.  Again, if science did not discredit the belief, then the belief would require no faith.  If people of faith trusted science deeply, they would no longer be people of faith.

Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

In short, left unchecked, Postmodernism leads to confusion, chaos, and the decline of Western societies. Worst of all, that may actually be a feature rather than a bug…
Right, because there was no confusion or chaos or decline to be discovered in the atomic bombs and holocausts at the apex of Modernism, no confusion or chaos or decline in the French and American revolutions at the apex of the Enlightenment.  I think you've taken a few of the most pervasive negatives of the human condition, blamed Post-Modernism for those negatives without demonstrating an understanding of the term, then blamed the Left for inventing the concept without any evidence and in the face of experts who actually credit the Right-wingers.

What is your plan for "checking" the Left to prevent them from thinking these heretical thoughts?  Thought-control?  Criminalization? 







Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,258
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@cristo71
See? You’re not even trying to correlate the contents of the article I linked— just for you— with what I have been saying. 
It was your OP that describes what you were talking about. And in your OP you explicitly pointed to postmodernism as a rejection of objective truth itself. You then claimed that this ideology has gotten into all western institutions with no examples of any institution it has penetrated. I’m more than willing to try to understand what you’re saying, but you need to present a coherent argument first.

And yes, I read the part of the article you quoted. It is worthless because the actual description of what postmodernism is according to the article does not line up with what it’s pointing to. There is nothing about identity politics itself that rests on a foundation of truth itself being subjective. And neither do any of the examples you listed. All this is is a bunch of “look at these crazy liberals” issues, but disagreeing with someone’s point of view doesn’t mean they embrace the idea of truth itself being subjective. And half of your examples are strawman arguments anyway.

If you want an actual example of this in our society id point to the “fake news” movement - a naked attempt to brand any fact one doesn’t like as a product of “the other side”. I’d point to anyone who claims Donald Trump “tells it like it is” because he is candid with his emotions even when everything he expresses is a factual lie. I’d point to those who argue that scientific findings are all just the elites telling you what to do. Those are actual, real examples of the ideology you describe and are far more entrenched in our society than anything you seem to take issue with.
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@cristo71
Can you give a more detailed explanation on this?

As I stated previously, Democrats and Republicans both are rooted in classically liberal principles (liberty, self determination, shared values, etc.) So, it isn’t the right alone, I would say. The problem is that postmodernist influences are growing outside of merely politics itself. Corporate CEO’s for example, give lip service to a socialist movement while being obviously capitalist themselves. Even if done out of pure cynicism (don’t want to lose their business!), it illustrates the traction such an ideology can attain.

Thomas Jefferson wrote "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" and I would say that this is the closest thing to a one sentence summary of American cultures core values as you could get.

Jefferson apparently felt that those unalienable rights endowed by the Creator didn't include the right not to literally be owned by another person. Clearly the logical conclusion of anyone who seriously believes in these values is that slavery must be abolished. The abolitionists had a much stronger argument for anyone who internalizes these values and Jefferson looks like a massive hypocrite today for claiming to believe in moral equality and unalienable rights while personally owning other human beings.

Okay, so what happens when we drop slavery, which is pretty transparently evil to us now, and focus on something more nuanced. We're all created equal, we all have the same unalienable rights. Sounds nice. But what if the circumstances of our births are different? I believe, and since you come off as conservative I think you also believe, that people have an obligation towards their families. If your family wants you to do X, while my family wants me to do Y, that distinction in my view is morally relevant. You have less of a right to do Y and I have less of a right to do X. But this means that we were NOT created equal, and do NOT have equal rights.  

So what happens when you get people who are DEEPLY committed to this equality. Say we're both men, but you're much more masculine than I am. You're bigger and taller, have a deeper voice and a square jaw, enjoy hunting and fishing as opposed to posting online etc. We are unequal in "manness." Nothing can possibly be done to ameliorate this fact, so if one wants equality they have to chip away at the importance of this distinction. This leads to stuff like attacking gender roles, questioning the gender binary, etc. Whereas I think conservatives see things totally differently (I know I do), there is a platonic ideal of "masculinity" and as a man you have an obligation to strive towards it. Some people were born closer than others, and that's unequal and unfair, but it's also just life. 

The point of my ramblings is that I think liberals are basically just following the philosophical values that America was founded on and that conservatives claim to hold to their logical conclusion, so the conservative is pretty hapless to resist. Distinctions inherently create inequality, and so the less meaningful we can make the distinctions the less relevant the inequality. A new philosophy is needed, along with a spiritual awakening...it's going to happen eventually but don't count on seeing it in your lifetime imo


cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@Double_R
And yes, I read the part of the article you quoted. It is worthless because the actual description of what postmodernism is according to the article does not line up with what it’s pointing to.
Imagine my complete and utter shock at your highly unexpected response…

Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 7
Posts: 3,346
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@thett3
Regarding Jefferson, people don't always act on their ideals, I know I don't.
Reading history, 'many people don't.

Regarding your ramblings on liberals,
Admiring and following a degree of equality, isn't bad, to my thinking, following it to an extreme 'is.
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@oromagi
I'd hardly call abolition, feminism, indoor toilets, refrigeration, flight, automobiles, televisions, epidemiology, robots on Mars, etc., etc., etc... a downhill trajectory.
Neither would I, which is why I didn’t. When I said “recent times,” I mean in the last decade or so. Postmodernists might criticize many of these products of the Enlightenment, though, as they would argue that technological advancement culminated in the destructive power of two world wars and the introduction of weapons of mass destruction.

So, Postmodernism is skeptical about the objectivity of many factual claims but that's not quite the same thing as saying that all truth is subjective.  

Meh… splitting hairs over how to define postmodernism is a bit futile as one of the common criticisms against it is that it is poorly defined. Also from wiki:

“It can be described as a reaction against attempts to explain reality in an objective manner by claiming that reality is a mental construct.”

To say that moral or cultural relativism are somehow more Left than Right is deluded.  All Americans are moral relativists from birth. Our Founding Fathers understood slavery was a great evil and an essential cheap labor if the South was to compete in the burgeoning Industrial Era. They held two opposite and intercancelling moral viewpoints, cemented the paradox into out Declaration of Independence and Constitution and consciously laid the foundation for the American Civil War.  Lincoln's moral relativism was exclusively focused on maximizing American power.  In August 1862, Lincoln stated: "If I could save the union without freeing any slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."  Such a platform is not at all leftist but a perfect example of American comfort with moral relativism even before the term Post-Modernism was coined. 
What you describe is more of what I would call moral quandaries and moral conflicts rather than a relativistic worldview. The train problem— do you save the train full of adults, or the train with one infant— is a moral quandary and a moral examination but not indicative of moral relativism.

What evidence can you present that the Left is more relativist than the Right?  I say the opposite is more likely to be true.
One example that comes to mind is Gloria Steinem— a pioneering and highly influential feminist, yet she is, from what I have gathered, largely silent on the treatment of women in much of the Islamic world. This example is not exceptional in nature, either.

Let's note that where Cristo71 blames Postmodernism for the rise of Marxism, Dr. Sharpe states that Postmodernism supplanted Marxism in academic articles
You won’t be able to note that because I didn’t say that. Why would I, when Postmodernism came into being well after Marxism? Actually, the claim that postmodernism has supplanted Marxism neither detracts from nor contradicts anything I have said.

The burden of proof is yours to demonstrate this embrace- not just that you can find some postmodernist Leftist but that post-Modernism itself is more popular on the Left than the Right, I just don't see any evidence that this is true.
Cultural and moral relativism are not Classical Liberal principles. Such relativism exists in anthropology and, as I pointed out, western feminism. Middle Eastern feminists don’t care for it…

Thoughtcrime!
It’s not merely a thought when one expects, or even demands that all of society accommodate and validate one’s thoughts.

Postmodernism abhors criticism of all cultures except for Western, European cultures”

Postmodernism originated as a critique of the Enlightenment. The Enlightenment occurred in Western civilization. So, critiquing the West is kind of the point. In criticizing Enlightenment values (reason, universalism, objective reality, and so forth) it posited relativism instead. With relativism, cultures should not be judged (ie criticized) outside of their own context. As I said earlier, this idea inhabits much of anthropology.

Faith requires an absence of objective truths.  If a claim is objectively true, then the claim requires no faith to demonstrate its truth.  Faith, by definition, is the acceptance as truth in the absence of any proof.
Not if one sees their god as THE objective truth, which is the case in the Abrahamic religions.

People of faith can only trust science up to the point that science discredits their belief system, therefore people of faith have always and will always distrust science to an important degree.  Again, if science did not discredit the belief, then the belief would require no faith.  If people of faith trusted science deeply, they would no longer be people of faith.
What I am saying is that if trusted institutions give people more and more reasons not to trust them anymore, that will motivate more people to put their trust in other things— such as fundamentalist religion.

Right, because there was no confusion or chaos or decline to be discovered in the atomic bombs and holocausts at the apex of Modernism, no confusion or chaos or decline in the French and American revolutions at the apex of the Enlightenment. 

Here, you are actually making a postmodernist argument.

I think you've taken a few of the most pervasive negatives of the human condition, blamed Post-Modernism for those negatives without demonstrating an understanding of the term, then blamed the Left for inventing the concept without any evidence and in the face of experts who actually credit the Right-wingers.
No, this is actually what the postmodernists have done (except they blame the Enlightenment and Westernism, not Postmodernism, of course).
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,258
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@cristo71
Imagine my complete and utter shock at your highly unexpected response…
Imagine my shock at your sarcastic expression of shock while ignoring the entire post…
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,258
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@thett3
So what happens when you get people who are DEEPLY committed to this equality. Say we're both men, but you're much more masculine than I am. You're bigger and taller, have a deeper voice and a square jaw, enjoy hunting and fishing as opposed to posting online etc. We are unequal in "manness." Nothing can possibly be done to ameliorate this fact, so if one wants equality they have to chip away at the importance of this distinction. This leads to stuff like attacking gender roles, questioning the gender binary, etc. 
Can you please explain this a bit further? Do you believe the discussion about gender roles and gender binaries are a result of some men feeling less than others with regards to masculinity?
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,064
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@Double_R
Can you please explain this a bit further? Do you believe the discussion about gender roles and gender binaries are a result of some men feeling less than others with regards to masculinity?
Not exactly, more like trying to reconcile a desire for equality in a universe that is inherently unequal, in ways that people had no say in. Maybe the easier thing to do is to simply do away with the importance of the metric. That and like I said in an earlier post the desire to free people from obligations they didn't choose. If I'm born a man and men ought to act a certain way that's an imposition on me, especially if I just don't want to act that way and so am negatively judged for failing to live up to a standard I never agreed to. If we don't want to force people into things it's better to remove as many social expectations as possible. Other than basic stuff like don't commit crimes, etc.

I don't totally disagree, but I definitely have my problems with the philosophy as I see it. Problem for conservative is they don't have a competing philosophy. You can't just be a liberal from the 80's, today's liberals are obviously going to beat you at that game. America is an inherently leftist country in many ways, as its very existence is an act of rebellion against the old ways. Ironic since the founding stock of the country are probably the most staunchly conservative European group anywhere in the world. 

There IS an undercurrent of people bitter about their own weakness and sense of inferiority and so they hate that which they perceive to be strong. But I think that's a minority among leftists, although they represent the overwhelming majority of people in movements like antifa.

FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 6,591
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@thett3

Well stated and FYI, I spent a lot of time at strip clubs in Olongapo.