Postmodernism and the far left’s war against reality

Author: cristo71

Posts

Total: 62
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
There’s a political pundit who is fond of pointing out, “Facts don’t care about your feelings.” Well, in postmodernism, one’s feelings don’t care about your facts! 

The Enlightenment was a high point in Western civilization; it has been on a downhill slide from there in recent times. I believe postmodernist thought, originating in the mid to late 20th century, is to blame. Birthed largely in academia, it has since grown into all of the West’s institutions. What is postmodernism? It posits the subjectivity of truth. From there, one arrives at moral relativism, cultural relativism, and neo Marxism.

Classical liberalism has adhered to the objectivity of truth, whereas leftism seems to embrace postmodernism. It used to be on the fringes of political discourse, but it has become much more mainstream in the 21st century. If you ever hear someone declaring that society needs to “reimagine” something, that is likely postmodernist thinking. Just some of the telltale results are:  moral confusion, gender confusion, identity politics, anti-capitalism, collectivism, anti-Westernism, anti-patriotism, and even skepticism over the inherent objectivity of mathematics.

Now, you might ask, “How can an ideology that promotes cultural relativism also be anti-Westernism? Isn’t that a contradiction?” Well, yes, it is a contradiction— merely one of several in the movement. Postmodernism abhors criticism of all cultures except for Western, European cultures. Regarding the West, it is highly judgmental. Postmodernists, ironically enough, only expect Western societies to adhere to Postmodernism in the first place!

You might also want to point out that evangelical Christianity, with its continuing belief in Creationism, is also putting ideology and belief ahead of what is generally accepted as factual and scientific. My response to that is at least Christianity places a high value on objectivity and fundamental truths. However, Postmodernism is actually reducing society’s trust in institutions (such as science in this case) even further because it is detracting from the rigor and trustworthiness that adhering to objectivity provides. People of faith will not be convinced to trust science more anytime soon if they feel it has been tainted by the ideological agenda of Postmodernism. You might also want to ask yourself why you don’t feel that same need to point out the same issue with much of the Islamic world!

In short, left unchecked, Postmodernism leads to confusion, chaos, and the decline of Western societies. Worst of all, that may actually be a feature rather than a bug…
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,257
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@cristo71
moral confusion, gender confusion, identity politics, anti-capitalism, collectivism, anti-Westernism, anti-patriotism, and even skepticism over the inherent objectivity of mathematics.
Other then the last one, which you’ll find no where on the left, nothing here is about objectivity. Morality is subjective. Identity politics itself has nothing to do with objectivity. Capitalism, Collectivism, Westernism, patriotism… all have nothing to do with objectivity. And gender confusion is a typical right wing strawman. No one is claiming the biological sex of the person is up for debate.

Meanwhile when it comes to matters that actually are about objectivity, things like science and who actually won the 2020 election for example, reality denying is entirely a right wing problem. The last right wing president told over 30k lies in his 4 years in office and is still the leading voice on the right. You really need to re-examine where the issue lies.
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@Double_R
You are looking at the entirety of a philosophical movement too one dimensionally. Your post basically boils down to a declaration of “I don’t believe you,” which is hardly unexpected, with an ad hominem tu quoque tossed in, which was already foreseen and addressed in the OP (“This shit is chess; it ain’t checkers!”) Maybe you missed it.

As you won’t take my word for it, here is a quick primer on it for your perusal:

RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 574
Posts: 19,931
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
I say FOX

You say NEWS

FOX
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@cristo71
It's not just moral relativism when it comes to postmodernism. It's all about redefining reality. Absolutely Orwellian philosophy.
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@Greyparrot
Exactly. Thing is, reality ALWAYS gets the last word…
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@cristo71
Case in point. Sycophants of MSM still believe to this day that Kyle Rittenhouse shot a black man.

That's the effect of postmodernism. Redefining reality. Mandela effect designed by tyrannical elites.

A veritable Orwellian dystopia where everyone is a manufactured enemy, except for the elites in charge.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@cristo71
Philosophical Bullshit, always has been a far left war against reality.

And Postmodern always is Postmodern....It's a time and people thing.

It's just us and them cristo.

Always has been.

Just keep going around and around.

And right becomes left, and left becomes right.....And so on.


cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@zedvictor4
I want to reiterate that this isn’t so much a Republican vs Democrat thing; it’s classical liberalism (which both parties have strong foundations in) vs Postmodernism, whose adherents find refuge in the Democratic Party out of political expediency. Sadly, it has been working to a great enough extent to be worth educating and warning people about, so here it is…

Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,257
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@cristo71
Your post basically boils down to a declaration of “I don’t believe you,”
More like… your claim is BS, please provide real evidence or examples that this ideology has anything to do with the left.

with an ad hominem tu quoque tossed in
Tu quoque means you too, which I’m not saying because I’m not owning the allegation.

There will always be whack jobs on every end of the political spectrum, so to find one and then claim they’re representative of their political group is a lazy  and disingenuous tactic. So if we’re going to have a conversation about any political group it needs to be a group large enough to warrant attention. There is no group on the left waging war with reality worthy of discussion, but there absolutely is on the right, so I find it odd that you would decide to go on a rant against one and not the other when the other is politically significant.
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@RationalMadman
NEWS
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@Double_R
More like… your claim is BS, please provide real evidence or examples that this ideology has anything to do with the left.
Dang, man. I gave you an encyclopedia reference. I can guess that you didn’t read it. Be careful about claiming that my claim is BS— not only are you potentially taking on your own burden of proof in making a claim yourself, but it is also abundantly clear that you don’t know enough about the subject to criticize my OP.

There will always be whack jobs on every end of the political spectrum, so to find one and then claim they’re representative of their political group is a lazy  and disingenuous tactic. So if we’re going to have a conversation about any political group it needs to be a group large enough to warrant attention. There is no group on the left waging war with reality worthy of discussion, but there absolutely is on the right, so I find it odd that you would decide to go on a rant against one and not the other when the other is politically significant.
Right… because you and other lefties are so critical of the left around here when it’s warranted. You’re just messing with me now, right?

If you read my OP (much) more carefully, you will see that I’m not saying that postmodernism is representative of the Democratic Party. You’re reading things I haven’t written. Heck, even my title says “far left.” BUT you will also read in my OP that I say postmodernism has grown in various western institutions. You have a penchant for underestimating dangers from the left even after they have been brought to your attention by various posters, as you do here: “There is no group on the left waging war with reality worthy of discussion”


Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@cristo71
“There is no group on the left waging war with reality worthy of discussion”

So the great number of people believing Kyle shot a black man, brought a gun over state lines...etc... was just created out of thin air....

cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@Greyparrot
Yes, it’s entirely possible that postmodernism is partly to blame for the decline of journalism (which I also made a thread on). Even clearer examples would be the group of doctors claiming that racism is more deadly than COVID (ie BLM protestors can congregate while neglecting to wear masks with their professional blessing) and the “defund the police” and “reimagine law enforcement” movement.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@cristo71
Exactly, because they all "felt" that Kyle was "evil" so the "facts" had to line up with the feelings.

That's proof postmodernism is alive and well in America.

Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,973
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
-->
@Greyparrot
Obviously the prosecution was infiltrated by Proud Boys. Postmodernism wouldn’t be a problem if the election wasn’t stolen. Now we have to deal with the War on Christmas by sex trafficking politicians.

That last one isn’t as “postmodernist” as it sounds. I try my best.


Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Reece101
Don't forget that everyone you don't like is a racist.

Feelings become new facts.
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,973
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
-->
@Greyparrot
I also should have said “they all”.
Maan you’re good.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Reece101
Also everything you don't like is worse than Watergate.

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Reece101
Obviously the prosecution was infiltrated by Proud Boys

Proud Boys are white supremacists is also a clever example. You are good no doubt.
Intelligence_06
Intelligence_06's avatar
Debates: 172
Posts: 3,946
5
8
11
Intelligence_06's avatar
Intelligence_06
5
8
11
There is no "reality" even. Many facts are based on feelings.
Reece101
Reece101's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,973
3
2
2
Reece101's avatar
Reece101
3
2
2
-->
@Greyparrot
Yup. Q is truth.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@cristo71
What is Postmodernism?

Other than an esoteric description of what has become a  popular aspect of modern culture.


What I was suggesting, was that far left does have the potential to become far right....And I think that history proves this.

Though at the current moment, how we interpret such things, largely depends upon which side of the fence one assumes to viewing from.

As someone who as a rule, likes to sit on the fence....I don't currently see anything particularly disconcerting, that cannot be adapted to.


"Postmodernism" as I previously suggested, will be an ongoing evolutionary trend....Largely dictated by technological advancements...And I don't really see a reversal of this trend.....Quite the opposite in fact.

Lets face it..... Material evolution is what it is.....And humans are accompanying blobs of organic goo....Albeit thinking.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 25,965
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@zedvictor4
 far left does have the potential to become far right....And I think that history proves this.

Left and right are meaningless constructs many people believe exist.

There are no liberals. Democrats don't want individual freedom or a reduction of central control.

There are no Conservatives. Republicans don't want to adhere to the founding principles of self-determination or to maintain a restrictive Constitution.

It's just made up words to describe the exact same thing.
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,062
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@Greyparrot
Left and Right are meaningless constructs.

Yep, I agree.....As is "Postmodernism".

That was really what I was driving at initially.

Though cristo71 is clearly interested more in the philosophy of assumed political ideology....So I was just trying to engage.


Social evolution is what it is....And will become what it will become.....And will effect accompanying generations along the way.
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@zedvictor4
I don't currently see anything particularly disconcerting, that cannot be adapted to.
In a nutshell, postmodernism is ultimately self-defeating/self-refuting. Being a Western invention, I just don’t want it to take the West down with it…

Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,257
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@cristo71
f you read my OP (much) more carefully, you will see that I’m not saying that postmodernism is representative of the Democratic Party. You’re reading things I haven’t written. Heck, even my title says “far left.”
Which is why I dedicated the bulk of my post to talking about representative groups and when one becomes worthy of attention.

BUT you will also read in my OP that I say postmodernism has grown in various western institutions
And yet you gave zero examples of any institution that exhibits this ideology. You did however bring up quite a bit to suggest you are talking about a far more significant portion of the left than you are admitting now. Let’s recap;

“leftism seems to embrace postmodernism”

“It used to be on the fringes of political discourse, but it has become much more mainstream in the 21st century”

“If you ever hear someone declaring that society needs to “reimagine” something [like say… the police?], that is likely postmodernist thinking.”

And then you went on to list a bunch of right wing trigger buzzwords like patriotism, capitalism, genderism, identity politics… it’s like your post is straight out of Fox News.

The only thing typically associated with the political right you opened to criticism is evangelical Christianity and its disregard for science, but then defended it by claiming that they won’t trust science if they feel like postmodernism has tainted science, which is a whole conversation on its own.

So I’m sorry to disappoint you, I did read your post and I did read your link. Perhaps you need to be more clear in what you are trying to convey.


ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,071
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@cristo71
Can you tell me in your estimation, how many "left of center" people qualify as "far left", by percentage? Trying to understand how you see the scale of the issue at hand. 
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,257
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
So the great number of people believing Kyle shot a black man, brought a gun over state lines...etc... was just created out of thin air....
Believing something that is not true, and believing that objective truth itself is not real are two completely different things.

I really don’t know why you need that explained.
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,549
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@Double_R
So I’m sorry to disappoint you, I did read your post and I did read your link. Perhaps you need to be more clear in what you are trying to convey.
I’m very glad you read both fully. It’s posting thoughts as if you ignored them that is disappointing. So, having read the Britannica article (I think my link just linked to a portion of the article, but for now this is a good enough start), what did you glean from it? How and where do you believe it contradicts or at least fails to support what I’m saying? Where can you concede it does support some of what I’m saying? Of course, I fully realize that you will *never* come to a point of total agreement with any politically oriented opinions of mine… and that’s… ok…