Would You Join This Religion?

Wrong....Humans define GODS, therefore humans define sin....That's irrefutable logic.

The formalisation of the beginning of a family....Mother, Father, Progeny, begins when the sperm fertilizes the egg.

How "a family" might proceed from thereon in, is variable...Though conditioning will have a big influence.

True...Gay is a somewhat hijacked word....Though in terms of homosexuality, it all boils down to the achievement of sexual gratification, via an alternative modus operandi to the one previously mentioned.

And conditioning is...Which may result in irresponsibility.

Promoting religious fiction as the basis of universal reality is a tad irresponsible, but it's just how some people have been conditioned to process misinformation.

Flesh and blood and conditioning maketh the person, that maketh their GOD.

So you don't have an answer? Ok.  Yes, Humanity is made in the image and likeness of God. 

You didn’t answer my question, so I responded in kind.  Try to be a bit more multi faceted in your responses.

And homosexuals didn't choose to be created gay, correct?

It's not nonsensical. You suggested originally that I was asserting extraordinary claims - therefore I needed to produce extraordinary evidence. I said that was nonsense since It misunderstands the reality of God.  I think searching for miracles and magic and supernatural things in relation to God is superstitious mumbo jumbo. 

Like I said, extraordinary does not refer to magic or the supernatural.  

God is all powerful and can do whatever he pleases, does not mean he is going to perform for us like a puppet when we call.  God has created this world we live in - and for me and the Scriptures that is where he is meeting with us.  If we cannot see God in the creation we are ignorant. 

The first thing is to admit you’re ignorant of ultimate truths. That’s how you expand your horizon. There’s always something more ultimate than what you already know. For example a god which is omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (all-present), and omniscient (all-knowing), is completely ruled by its own fate. Every thought and action that god makes, is predetermined. If you say he can choose to be ignorant about something, my response is, does it matter? he would have known prior.  

I did. It was pride. A better word is selfish. An even better word is idolatry. And an even better word is sinful.  Yes, you are right. There are millions of people in history who died not knowing the God of the universe.  They died not knowing the God who controls and plans history.  God is the author of life. If people are in Hell then that is because they refused to acknowledge the creator of this world. A choice they freely made and nobody took from them. 

They didn’t have a choice in the matter in a world where God is the ultimate arbiter. 

Do fetuses go to Hell? Excellent question. Personally, I don't have an answer - save and except, that I believe that God saves everyone through Jesus. Yet thankfully, I am not God. What God does in his own way is a matter for him.  I don't have an issue with that because I believe fully that everything God does is good and just.  It is an assumption. or an axiom. 

So if they go to hell, God’s good and just regardless? That begs a follow up question if your answer is yes.

No that is an unfair characterization of my point. I took issue with you suggesting that math was perfect. I never said that. God is perfect. I do not think that therefore everything else is perfect.  I said math is based on reason and logic.

Which you said is “ABSOLUTE”.

It wasn’t an easy journey either. There’s a couple of times when humanity almost went extinct, both modern and early humans. 

It is no surprise we are up there in terms of most adaptive species. It’s thanks to our cooperative brain. 

In your view, what would the logical actions be of a human in which we’ve evolved?

No because I wanted to see where you were going. And also because I wanted to clarify your question. Now it has arisen I will respond. 

I am actually two minds about this.   I was settled in my view that gays chose to be gay. And honestly, I still think that for many it is exactly that. The whole notion of fluid these days, means people don't have to commit to being one or the other  - just flit between one experience and the other. We can all provide examples of this.   I also held to this view because I was of the view that sin was a choice. 

In the past 18  months or so - from extra reading and talking with some of my colleagues - and the bible, I am comfortable with the fact that God created humanity good. Yet the fall of humanity so affected humanity in its core that perhaps some people are born gay.   Hence, God did not create people gay. Sin impacted humanity by the fall. For example, people born with all sorts of diseases and disabilities - in my view is a result of the fall, not individual sins per se.  Without the fall, these situations would not have occurred. Yet, after the fall since sin has entered the world and the human condition, then they are part and parcel of it. Hence in my view, it does seem plausible that some people are born gay. Yet this is not the same as saying God created people gay or malformed or with disease.

I would hold to the view that God defines what sin is and that each individual is responsible for their own sin. Did homosexuals therefore  choose not to be born gay? No one chooses how they are born.  Nor how they are created for that matter.  But there is a clear distinction between how one was created - and then the implications of a choice of that human after they were created.  Today we say - take the vaccine or not.  Yet your choice has implications.  God created humanity. And told them if they ate of the fruit there would be implications.  Humanity knew the risk and the implications and went ahead anyway. I think this choice to ignore the risk is on humanity, not on God. Yet sin is still sin.

Extraordinary means more than ordinary.  Magic is not ordinary. Supernatural is not ordinary.  In fact both are extraordinary. Of course there are other things which are extraordinary as well. Yet when it comes to proving God, most people want extraordinary proof, not just ordinary proof. I honestly, can see only evidence for God's existence and not a scrap of evidence against his existence. 

It is not about admitting ignorance or not. That is simply me explaining why. People don't want to see creation as being created by God. Most people prefer to ignore the possibility and put forward all sorts of reasons it is a delusion.  Occam's razor is a helpful tool. It is the most reasonable position to believe that the world and the universe was created rather than it just appeared from nowhere all by itself for no particular reason. Of course people would not admit that it what they believe - and would likely deny it too - calling it strawman. And yet that is the alternative.  

I am not going to fall into your trap of the god of the gaps theory.  I don't hold to that position in the first place. But of course there are things I don't know. I don't automatically jump to the conclusion that this proves God exists.  Your assumption about God and fate is an assumption of yours not mine. God is ruled by his own character not by fate. God is also Holy. That is one thing atheists leave out of their trifecta about God. God is not three dimensional. That entire definition is nothing but a strawman.

That's one point where we disagree. Christians talk about first and second causes.  First causes talk about the fact that nothing can happen without God causing it. Second Causes talk about how things come about. You used the term author. In many ways history is God's book.  He is the author and we are all the characters. In books - the author is the first cause and the characters are the second cause.  In books, it is the character who is responsible for how they live and the consequences they receive depending upon the narrative.  If Darth Vader kills someone, they don't blame it on George Lucas in the story. Darth Vader is the second cause and the division between him and the first cause is such that no one but Darth Vader is responsible for his own actions.  Of course using the author analogy has its flaws - but it also provides a helpful analogy to consider the difference between God as the first cause and Humanity as responsible for what they do in life.  No one is really going to say Darth Vader did not have free choice or that he should not be responsible for his actions. No one is going to turn around and say to Darth - hey don't worry, it is not your fault - it is George Lucas's fault. One of the flaws of this analogy of course is that God himself is a character within his own book.  And sometimes we refer to God in his first cause place and sometimes we refer to God in his second cause place.  God's providence and what happens is always going to happen - since it was done so through his first cause person as the author of life.  But sometimes what God does is as the basis of his second cause place.  At least attempting to distinguish the two is somewhat helpful. 

I think God is good and just regardless of what I see and understand with my own eyes.   For me - he is the measure of good and just.  For those without God, their measure is something else. Perhaps whatever they have been conditioned to believe, what their culture tells them, what their family taught them, what their schools taught them, what their peer group etc.  Others think the majority of people provide the measure. Others think science does it. some say a group of elite professionals know the best measure of goodness and justice. Others their political party. Others rely on their conscience - whatever that is. Some use utilitarianism. Others the marxist dialect. And so the list goes on.  What is your measure of right and wrong - any of these - a mixture of these - ? Something else. 

Absolute does not mean perfect. 

Or occam's razor. God. 

Death, suicide, anarchy,  or centralization - power corrupt power. Slavery. Thankfully, however we are not too consistent, and are restrained by God and his common grace. 

Cooperation has its place - and does competition. But they are not opposites to each other nor even enemies. 

Communism insists it is about cooperation - yet really is it submission to monopoly. 

From my understanding, sexual fluidity is a description of human sexual behaviour/attraction within environments where a persons sexual orientation (being gay, straight, etc) is challenged.  “Prison culture” is an extreme example. 

What about other animals? They also have gay relations. Are you saying there was a fall of animals too? Do they also go to hell if they give in to their natural temptations? Do you understand how illogical you’re being with your excuses? By the way, I find it disgusting you’re equating malformation or having a disease with being gay. It goes to show where your mind is. 

I would hold to the view that God defines what sin is and that each individual is responsible for their own sin. Did homosexuals therefore  choose not to be born gay? No one chooses how they are born.  Nor how they are created for that matter.  But there is a clear distinction between how one was created - and then the implications of a choice of that human after they were created.  Today we say - take the vaccine or not.  Yet your choice has implications.  God created humanity. And told them if they ate of the fruit there would be implications.  Humanity knew the risk and the implications and went ahead anyway. I think this choice to ignore the risk is on humanity, not on God. Yet sin is still sin.

God knew how everything would play out beforehand. Again, God is the ultimate arbiter. With ultimate power comes ultimate responsibility. 

Extraordinary means more than ordinary.  Magic is not ordinary. Supernatural is not ordinary.  In fact both are extraordinary. Of course there are other things which are extraordinary as well. Yet when it comes to proving God, most people want extraordinary proof, not just ordinary proof. I honestly, can see only evidence for God's existence and not a scrap of evidence against his existence. 

Yes, extraordinary means more than ordinary. Not  what you were exclusively saying it referred to, which were magic and the supernatural. But I’m glad you’re going by the actual definition now. God is an extraordinary claim which requires extraordinary evidence.

It is not about admitting ignorance or not. That is simply me explaining why. People don't want to see creation as being created by God. Most people prefer to ignore the possibility and put forward all sorts of reasons it is a delusion.  Occam's razor is a helpful tool. It is the most reasonable position to believe that the world and the universe was created rather than it just appeared from nowhere all by itself for no particular reason. Of course people would not admit that it what they believe - and would likely deny it too - calling it strawman. And yet that is the alternative.  

Would you have known God if you weren’t taught it? What if you grew up in a different culture? Would a loving God really send you to hell?

I am not going to fall into your trap of the god of the gaps theory.  I don't hold to that position in the first place. But of course there are things I don't know. I don't automatically jump to the conclusion that this proves God exists.  Your assumption about God and fate is an assumption of yours not mine. God is ruled by his own character not by fate. God is also Holy. That is one thing atheists leave out of their trifecta about God. God is not three dimensional. That entire definition is nothing but a strawman.

What position don’t you hold to in the first place? 

Can you tell me why my assumption is wrong?

If you want a more clear cut analogy I suggest Marvel comics. The Marvel god when depicted is sometimes thought to be the writer within the community. Though even he admits that he’s not capable of omniscience, etc. Problems arise when that’s the case which you haven’t addressed.

I think God is good and just regardless of what I see and understand with my own eyes.   For me - he is the measure of good and just.  For those without God, their measure is something else. Perhaps whatever they have been conditioned to believe, what their culture tells them, what their family taught them, what their schools taught them, what their peer group etc.  Others think the majority of people provide the measure. Others think science does it. some say a group of elite professionals know the best measure of goodness and justice. Others their political party. Others rely on their conscience - whatever that is. Some use utilitarianism. Others the marxist dialect. And so the list goes on.  What is your measure of right and wrong - any of these - a mixture of these - ? Something else. 

Humans reason what’s right and wrong, good and bad in everyday life regardless of a belief in a genocidal dictator. 

Saying that’s right or wrong because God said so, is not good enough. That’s not our standard in daily life. 

Absolute does not mean perfect. 

What did you mean by it when it came to math then?

Or occam's razor. God. 

Of course you would say that.  What if you were taught a different god?

Death, suicide, anarchy,  or centralization - power corrupt power. Slavery. Thankfully, however we are not too consistent, and are restrained by God and his common grace. 

That’s how you would feel without God, correct? That’s how many religious people have felt. I find it kind of childish. All those things have always existed, especially in heavily religious countries, etc. Apart from “anarchy” I guess. Less religious countries tend to be the happiest in the modern world.

Modern day is all that there is.

And like unconditioned non-theists who went before, we realised that it doesn't matter how hard you look you will never find a GOD, anywhere other than inside a conditioned  mind.

And the human family is, and various sub-families are...Irrespective of pomp and circumstance.

And if I'm woke.

Then that puts you most definitely in dreamland.

Fluidity essentially started with the Kinsey Report.  The study however has very deep flaws in it. 

Honestly, I think comparing humans with animals is only mildly helpful.  Spiders and many other animals are cannibals and killers for fun.  No one ever suggests that they would be suitable for humans to do. And also I am not equating malformation and disease with gay.  I suggested that sin has changed the human body from its initial state.  Are things getting personal?  

Yes.  I guess that explains why he himself chose to die on a cross. That is ultimate responsibility. 

No I never exclusively said that. Go back and check. And don't put words into my mouth which were never there.  Again. You intentionally miss the point. 

It is possible. What if I were? There are many Christians in many cultures around the world. Would a loving judge ever send anyone to prison? Of course.  God is loving and holy and just.  He would be corrupt if he did not send people to Hell.  Just like a judge would be corrupt if he let all the criminals go free. 

I don't hold to the god of the gaps theory.  And yes because fatalism is a position that is unable to differentiate between the one and the many. 

So rather than engage with it - as you wanted me to with the dragon - you just fob it off.  Ok I suppose that makes sense.  One rule for you and another rule for anyone you disagree with. sounds fair. and reasonable. 

So you don't have an answer then. Again not surprising.

That math required principles which are consistent and real. Not nominal and change with the wind.  It is the difference between real science and the arts.

But I wasn't. Well that is not exactly true. The God I grew up with is in many ways very different to the God I worship now.  My teachers presented God as best they could - and I threw it away.  It wasn't until much later I came to know God.  After I spend significant years as an atheist.   God brought me back to the faith. I would not have come unless he made me.  

Nope. It is the inevitable result of evolution for humanity. Life - death. All roads lead to death for the humanity and atheist.  Tell it does not. Death is inevitable. There is nothing after life. When you die - you die.  Religions for the major part are searching for a way out of death - don't think too hard about Hinduism which too is looking for death.  But religions want eternal life. Atheists - seek after death. 

I think you will find the studies reflecting happiness - have two major characteristics - one they are secular societies - which happen to arise always from protestant backgrounds - and secondly are drawn up by academics who are primarily secular. And biased.  It depends upon which religions we are looking at as well.  Not all religions are equal - just like not every idea or philosophy is equal. 

There are reasons why there are proportionately significant intellectuals that arise within both the Jewish World and the Protestant Worlds. Yes, other nations have intellectuals as well. But most come from a particular background. 

I am glad you are not a communist. Mind you , it is a free world - no pun intended. 

Reverend "Tradey" Tradsecret wrote;  Christians don't ask people to seek God.  We say very clearly, you can't find God.

Morning Trade.

Upset....I don't do upset Trade.

I do early morning Debateart entertainment.

I was surprised at your inability to understand what I meant by family....Though I'm guessing that you probably didn't try....Ah well.

And Woke....As far as I am concerned, woke means awake...So I'll take it as a compliment....And hence, my dreamland re-jibe.

And for sure, I learned to ignore Christianity 50  or more years ago....And you learned the opposite.....Conditioning Trade.

And I know that it's not possible to find a real GOD....That's what I keep telling you Trade....So we've concluded the morning in agreement then...Nice.

I personally don't believe they contradict each other. 

#96

@ zedvictor4' You don't even realize how much your answer reveals your ignorance of Christianity, do you? 

Christians are not seeking God.   Christians don't ask people to seek God.  We say very clearly, you can't find God. 

I take it you realize the difference between someone who is a Christian and seeks the Lord........and the person who is a non-believer and seeks the Lord?

If you cannot distinguish the difference then that is your problem, not mine.  

You don't even realize how much your answer reveals your ignorance of Christianity, do you? 

Christians are not seeking God.   Christians don't ask people to seek God.  We say very clearly, you can't find God. 

And if you can't find a GOD

Then how can you know a GOD?

This is clearly an ongoing contradiction of yours Trade.

It's not a contradiction.

It's not a contradiction.

Oh stop it ffs. I said YOU are:  You have said while calling others " ignorant":

You don't even realize how much your answer reveals your ignorance of Christianity, do you? 

Christians are not seeking God.   Christians don't ask people to seek God.  We say very clearly, you can't find God. #96

But the BIBLE doesn't agree with you. YOU are contradicting what it is THE BIBLE states and what your god Jesus has to say on the matter of "seeking" and  "finding "  god, you complete and utter bible dunce.

Acts 17: 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

Jeremiah 29:13.  You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Proverbs 8:17. I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.

 For all of your self proclaimed "qualifications and accreditations"   you have to be the most bible ignorant Pastor and Chaplain that I have ever come across. And you have the nerve to charge universities to tutor and lecture their students on matters religion, god and the BIBLE!?

 Can't you read and understand what I wrote above? 

Tradesecret wrote: You don't even realize how much your answer reveals your ignorance of Christianity, do you? 

Christians are not seeking God.   Christians don't ask people to seek God.  We say very clearly, you can't find God. #96

But the BIBLE doesn't agree with you. YOU are contradicting what it is THE BIBLE states and what your god Jesus has to say on the matter of "seeking" and  "finding "  god, you complete and utter bible dunce.

Acts 17: 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

Jeremiah 29:13.  You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

Proverbs 8:17. I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.

I really with all due respect do not see anything here that contradicts anything I have previously said.

The Queen?

Just a woman, Trade.

The Queen?

Just a woman, Trade.

Absolutely and this exactly my point.  

This human person has all of this enormous power but you still don't just waltz into her presence. 

Tradesecret wrote: You don't even realize how much your answer reveals your ignorance of Christianity, do you? 

Christians are not seeking God.   Christians don't ask people to seek God.  We say very clearly, you can't find God. #96

In fact many people think they should be able to summon God at will.

We say very clearly, you can't find God. #96

I think the first step towards knowing God is by realizing you can't find God.#101

What an absolute stupid thing to write. 

 Her Majesty IS still accessible, can still be contacted , addressed, spoken to and can also be BE FOUND and seen. 

where as;

 I have never said (without qualification) that God cannot be found.

People who don't believe in the God of the Bible wont seek God.

Tradesecrete wrote:  Christians are not seeking God. #96