Would You Join This Religion?

Author: Reece101

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@Reece101
Don’t play dumb. 

Yeah, you know what else is true, the dragon in my garage. 
Oh I get it. 

You think I am playing dumb because you don't believe God is real.  

Well that is your prerogative I suppose. But last time I checked any law in any country, believing in God is not a sign of delusion. 

God is true. It is irrational to think otherwise.  This has been said many times - and not once has anyone actually refuted it. 


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@Tradesecret
You aren’t playing dumb. I’ll give you that.

You know what else hasn’t been refuted? The dragon in my garage. 




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@Reece101
You aren’t playing dumb. I’ll give you that.

You know what else hasn’t been refuted? The dragon in my garage. 
Why does anyone need to refute the dragon in your garage?  Who is saying there is one - there apart from you? 

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Does a bandwagon matter? In a sense they do if they’re all trivialising truth as well. 

My point is, something which is unfalsifiable does not equal truth.
Can you prove there isn’t a dragon in my garage? If not, it must be true, correct?


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@Reece101
Does a bandwagon matter? In a sense they do if they’re all trivialising truth as well. 
You will have to explain what you mean? 


My point is, something which is unfalsifiable does not equal truth.
Can you prove there isn’t a dragon in my garage? If not, it must be true, correct?
Again, you seem to be speaking doublespeak.  I don't care that you think there is a dragon in your garage.  Whether you can prove one or not is entirely irrelevant to me - since I don't think dragons - (well apart from Komodo Dragons) exist. ) 

I am not asking you to prove that one exists in your garage.  Personally I think the suggestion that a dragon in your garage is equivalent to God is about as comparable to the notion that vaccine mandates are like the holocaust in Germany. Little similarities do not make the comparison proper or correct. It is demeaning and insulting to the nth degree. 

If you would be so kind as to make the connection it would be helpful. 
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Does a bandwagon matter? In a sense they do if they’re all trivialising truth as well. 
You will have to explain what you mean? 
There’s a fallacy called the bandwagon fallacy AKA the appeal to common belief.
Truth isn’t based on “common sense”. Would you agree? 

Again, you seem to be speaking doublespeak.  I don't care that you think there is a dragon in your garage.  Whether you can prove one or not is entirely irrelevant to me - since I don't think dragons - (well apart from Komodo Dragons) exist. ) 
Wait, so you don’t think the dragon in my garage is real? It’s irrational to think otherwise. He created the universe for dragon sake. If he didn’t exist I’d be going out murdering and raping people. I might even turn gay. 

I am not asking you to prove that one exists in your garage.  Personally I think the suggestion that a dragon in your garage is equivalent to God is about as comparable to the notion that vaccine mandates are like the holocaust in Germany. Little similarities do not make the comparison proper or correct. It is demeaning and insulting to the nth degree. 

If you would be so kind as to make the connection it would be helpful. 
You know what else is insulting to the nth degree, trivialising truth by synonymising it with faith. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
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@Reece101

Does a bandwagon matter? In a sense they do if they’re all trivialising truth as well. 
You will have to explain what you mean? 
There’s a fallacy called the bandwagon fallacy AKA the appeal to common belief.
Truth isn’t based on “common sense”. Would you agree? 
Truth may be at times based on common sense. I don't have a problem with that per se.  I don't think that just because a majority of people believe something that it is the truth.  For me - truth is an absolute.  But not necessarily an absolute for all time. Although it might be. Truth exists within parameters. 

Again, you seem to be speaking doublespeak.  I don't care that you think there is a dragon in your garage.  Whether you can prove one or not is entirely irrelevant to me - since I don't think dragons - (well apart from Komodo Dragons) exist. ) 
Wait, so you don’t think the dragon in my garage is real? It’s irrational to think otherwise. He created the universe for dragon sake. If he didn’t exist I’d be going out murdering and raping people. I might even turn gay. 
I don't have to care whether your dragon is real or not. That is a matter for you. For me, your view is not the determiner of truth.  To call me irrational because I don't agree with you is a matter for you - but it is not based in fact or reality.  A dragon did not create the universe simply because you think it did.  But the universe did not suddenly come into place all by itself either. If you really think that the dragon made the world, how did you come to this conclusion?  If your dragon stops you from murdering and raping people - I think "good on the dragon".  I am not sure what gay has got to do with anything. 

I am not asking you to prove that one exists in your garage.  Personally I think the suggestion that a dragon in your garage is equivalent to God is about as comparable to the notion that vaccine mandates are like the holocaust in Germany. Little similarities do not make the comparison proper or correct. It is demeaning and insulting to the nth degree. 

If you would be so kind as to make the connection it would be helpful. 
You know what else is insulting to the nth degree, trivialising truth by synonymising it with faith. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Everyone has faith. Pretending faith is not part of reality is a lie and a deception. No one could last a day without faith.  I am very proud of myself. 


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Truth may be at times based on common sense.
It’s the other way around. Common sense may be at times based on truth. Belief in gods ain’t one. 

I don't have a problem with that per se.  I don't think that just because a majority of people believe something that it is the truth.  For me - truth is an absolute.  But not necessarily an absolute for all time. Although it might be. Truth exists within parameters.
There are very few things I call absolute. Colloquially I consider it used just as an expression. However, it does not take away the linguistical importance of what we call true. 

I don't have to care whether your dragon is real or not. That is a matter for you. For me, your view is not the determiner of truth.  To call me irrational because I don't agree with you is a matter for you - but it is not based in fact or reality.  A dragon did not create the universe simply because you think it did.  But the universe did not suddenly come into place all by itself either. If you really think that the dragon made the world, how did you come to this conclusion?  If your dragon stops you from murdering and raping people - I think "good on the dragon".  I am not sure what gay has got to do with anything. 
I was taught it. The dragon also talks to me. He says stop being gay. 

Everyone has faith. Pretending faith is not part of reality is a lie and a deception. No one could last a day without faith.  I am very proud of myself. 
By faith I meant faith in a god.
Faith is ambiguous by itself. It could mean faith in ones own ability to achieve, which isn’t what I meant. 
Can you please try to contextualise what we’re discussing. Yes I know it’s advantageous for you to not stick to context. 
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Truth may be at times based on common sense.
It’s the other way around. Common sense may be at times based on truth. Belief in gods ain’t one. 
I honestly don't have a clue what you are saying.  Common sense - touch, smell, sight, sound, taste are the five common senses - common to most people on this planet.  Truth is truth. It is both absolute and changeable at the same time. 2 +2= 4.  This is true. Yet 2 + a = a variety of truths because a might = a random number. 

The truth today that secular thinking is rising is not the same as the truth 50 years ago that secular thinking was declining.  Common Sense provides at times a basis for truth.  If I see water falling out of the sky, it may well provide the truth - that it is raining.  Of course there might be other reasons water is falling out of the sky, but the common sense notion that most people would recognize would accord to this the basis of truth. 

Truth is not the same as common sense.  Yet some common sense notions provide us with a basis of truth.  

Can common sense be based on truth? I suppose so.  God is truth. God created the world. God created the senses. Senses therefore are based on truth. 

The usage of belief in God is really quite an unhelpful phrase.  What does belief mean? The Bible says that Satan and his demons believe in God. Yet this belief is not the means of their salvation. I actually think EVERY PERSON is hardwired with assumption that God is true.  People naturally understand God from the moment they are conceived.  In fact I truly opine that to choose not to believe God is irrational per se. 

I don't have a problem with that per se.  I don't think that just because a majority of people believe something that it is the truth.  For me - truth is an absolute.  But not necessarily an absolute for all time. Although it might be. Truth exists within parameters.
There are very few things I call absolute. Colloquially I consider it used just as an expression. However, it does not take away the linguistical importance of what we call true. 
True is actually just being in accord with the measuring stick or tool.  The truth in one sense cannot change. But truth is more than just a random fact thrown out to prove a point. 


I don't have to care whether your dragon is real or not. That is a matter for you. For me, your view is not the determiner of truth.  To call me irrational because I don't agree with you is a matter for you - but it is not based in fact or reality.  A dragon did not create the universe simply because you think it did.  But the universe did not suddenly come into place all by itself either. If you really think that the dragon made the world, how did you come to this conclusion?  If your dragon stops you from murdering and raping people - I think "good on the dragon".  I am not sure what gay has got to do with anything. 
I was taught it. The dragon also talks to me. He says stop being gay. 
Why is being gay a problem?  This is what you were taught.  We can be taught things in error.  Einstein would attest to that. Yet, somethings we are taught are correct.  Your dragon is a matter for you. If you choose to listen to this dragon, what is it to do with me. I suspect you listen to lots of things I might think are silly. Does that make all of them magical and superstitious? You might listen to music. I think that is a waste of time unless it is by someone who is proficient at it. You might like to listen to Donald Trump.  I have never met him. I have only seen him on videos. He seems pretty out there. Perhaps he is simply a fake persona. Should I choose to believe he is fake?

I could come to your garage and ask you to show me your dragon.  Are you the only one to be able to see it? 


Everyone has faith. Pretending faith is not part of reality is a lie and a deception. No one could last a day without faith.  I am very proud of myself. 
By faith I meant faith in a god.
Faith is ambiguous by itself. It could mean faith in ones own ability to achieve, which isn’t what I meant. 
Can you please try to contextualise what we’re discussing. Yes I know it’s advantageous for you to not stick to context. 
I am sticking to context.   You are suggesting to me that your dragon in your garage is just as real for you as God is to me. I disagree. For instance - we both know you are producing this figment of imagination as a tool to demonstrate that god is also just imagination. The difficulty of course is we both know your dragon is a figment. In relation to God, you might think that of God but I don't hold that view at all.  The comparison simply does not hold water. 

I in real life do pray to God. I also worship God. I have a book - which I understand through sound study and research and logical thinking to be God's words. I have an entire worldview - a comprehensive worldview tied up with God.  This is very different to a dragon you have intentionally invented to try and prove God is in the same league. It really is comparing apples with oranges. 

I understand your sentiment - don't misunderstand me. I often use similar thoughts of argument but in the reverse direction. And with other religions. But to be perfectly honest, the way to make someone doubt the existence of God is much more complex than telling me you have dragon in your garage and that he is preventing you from murdering people, raping people, and from being gay. 

God does not prevent me from murdering people. He does not prevent me from raping people. He does not prevent me from being gay. I do say that but for my belief in God I could do all of those things. I do say that but for this morality that flows from God and his theology, that I would just live for myself.  The fact is - if God does not exist - then there are no eternal implications for me. And there are no historical ones either save for whatever this world throws at me. 

If God does not exist - then truth is whatever I want it to be.  Facts might remain facts. But facts then just become a description of life that I can agree with or try and change if I wanted too.  

God has provided the world with a correct way to live. If we don't choose to live that way - then that inevitably means we will stuff up. If we disregard his laws to not kill people - then life would be very messy. Yet if God did not exist, what is the reason not to kill? Does it not become the survival of the fittest? Don't I at that stage get to determine who lives and who dies? Of course there are always going to be bigger and stronger people than me.  I naturally am going to make sure I don't annoy them.  To make people stop believing in God, you need to dig much deeper than you are.  This is because God is real. 








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I don’t know why you feel the need to create a wall of text. Well I have an idea. 

I honestly don't have a clue what you are saying.  Common sense - touch, smell, sight, sound, taste are the five common senses - common to most people on this planet.
By “common sense” I meant common belief. Go back and look at the context. It’s  #66. 

The truth today that secular thinking is rising is not the same as the truth 50 years ago that secular thinking was declining.  Common Sense provides at times a basis for truth.  If I see water falling out of the sky, it may well provide the truth - that it is raining.  Of course there might be other reasons water is falling out of the sky, but the common sense notion that most people would recognize would accord to this the basis of truth. 

Truth is not the same as common sense.  Yet some common sense notions provide us with a basis of truth.  

Can common sense be based on truth? I suppose so.  God is truth. God created the world. God created the senses. Senses therefore are based on truth. 

The usage of belief in God is really quite an unhelpful phrase.  What does belief mean? The Bible says that Satan and his demons believe in God. Yet this belief is not the means of their salvation. I actually think EVERY PERSON is hardwired with assumption that God is true.  People naturally understand God from the moment they are conceived.  In fact I truly opine that to choose not to believe God is irrational per se. 
I’m not arguing about the five senses. It’s almost as if you’re trying to misconstrue my positions. I’m not going to argue against a premise you falsely assumed. 

True is actually just being in accord with the measuring stick or tool.  The truth in one sense cannot change. But truth is more than just a random fact thrown out to prove a point. 
I roughly agree.

Why is being gay a problem? 
I was using it comedically. Plus Abrahamic religions have traditionally had a problem with it. 

This is what you were taught.  We can be taught things in error.  Einstein would attest to that. Yet, somethings we are taught are correct.
And how do we find out they’re correct? Can you give me something correct that I wouldn’t agree with you on?
 
Your dragon is a matter for you. If you choose to listen to this dragon, what is it to do with me. I suspect you listen to lots of things I might think are silly. Does that make all of them magical and superstitious? You might listen to music. I think that is a waste of time unless it is by someone who is proficient at it.
It seems to me you’re downplaying psychosis. 

You might like to listen to Donald Trump.  I have never met him. I have only seen him on videos. He seems pretty out there. Perhaps he is simply a fake persona. Should I choose to believe he is fake?
Much about him as a politician I would say is fake, unless he bizarrely changed many of his positions as a 70-80 year old. 

I could come to your garage and ask you to show me your dragon.  Are you the only one to be able to see it? 
He’s invisible. But he’s still 100% there. 

I am sticking to context.   You are suggesting to me that your dragon in your garage is just as real for you as God is to me. I disagree. For instance - we both know you are producing this figment of imagination as a tool to demonstrate that god is also just imagination. The difficulty of course is we both know your dragon is a figment. In relation to God, you might think that of God but I don't hold that view at all.  The comparison simply does not hold water. 
For the sake of argument, I whole heartedly believe the dragon is real. 

I in real life do pray to God. I also worship God. I have a book - which I understand through sound study and research and logical thinking to be God's words. I have an entire worldview - a comprehensive worldview tied up with God.  This is very different to a dragon you have intentionally invented to try and prove God is in the same league. It really is comparing apples with oranges. 
If you’re an atheist against the belief of my dragon, would that mean you’re agnostic with other religions? For example Hinduism is much older than Christianity with a rich culture. 

I understand your sentiment - don't misunderstand me. I often use similar thoughts of argument but in the reverse direction. And with other religions. But to be perfectly honest, the way to make someone doubt the existence of God is much more complex than telling me you have dragon in your garage and that he is preventing you from murdering people, raping people, and from being gay. 

God does not prevent me from murdering people. He does not prevent me from raping people. He does not prevent me from being gay. I do say that but for my belief in God I could do all of those things. I do say that but for this morality that flows from God and his theology, that I would just live for myself.  The fact is - if God does not exist - then there are no eternal implications for me. And there are no historical ones either save for whatever this world throws at me. 
Many people from many religions use that argumentation against atheists. Personally I find it childish. We’re a species that’s about 300,000 years old. We evolved to do good. How we interpret good is a different matter. Religion was a way for an uneducated community to be on the same page, especially at scale. But now societies have educated populaces with laws that are easily enforceable compared to a few thousand years ago. 

If God does not exist - then truth is whatever I want it to be.  Facts might remain facts. But facts then just become a description of life that I can agree with or try and change if I wanted too.  
That’s the spirit. if It was the truth that you didn’t know a particular skill, but now you do, then all the power to you. 

God has provided the world with a correct way to live. If we don't choose to live that way - then that inevitably means we will stuff up.
Did the christian God give other religions instructions on how to live too? Many of those instruction I bet you would disagree with. Even within Christianity. 

If we disregard his laws to not kill people - then life would be very messy. Yet if God did not exist, what is the reason not to kill?
firstly, most people don’t kill purely indiscriminately. Secondly, we are community oriented. There are countless repercussions, not just to yourself, but to your loved ones. 

Does it not become the survival of the fittest?
Survival of the fittest means the best to adapt. Again, humans adapted to be community oriented, that’s how we best survived. 

Don't I at that stage get to determine who lives and who dies?
At what cost?

Of course there are always going to be bigger and stronger people than me.  I naturally am going to make sure I don't annoy them.  To make people stop believing in God, you need to dig much deeper than you are.  This is because God is real. 
Societies exist regardless of your god.
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@Reece101

By “common sense” I meant common belief. Go back and look at the context. It’s  #66. 
Well thanks for clarifying. 

I’m not arguing about the five senses. It’s almost as if you’re trying to misconstrue my positions. I’m not going to argue against a premise you falsely assumed. 
You used common sense. I'm not trying to do anything but understand what you are saying. 

Why is being gay a problem? 
I was using it comedically. Plus Abrahamic religions have traditionally had a problem with it. 
Not true. That a misconstruing of the Abrahamic religions position. I see you humor. I don't agree. Abrahamic religions are in favor of family and marriage. The purpose of marriage for the Abrahamic religions is primarily to raise children.  The purpose of sex primarily is to procreate. Of course it is not the only reason - but is the primary reason. (As it is in the animal world) Anything out of sync with this primary purpose is an aberration - and that is the point.  Not gayness, anymore than it is about adultery, as it is about pre marital sex, as it is about pornography, as it is about prostitution. Religions are not anti-gay. They are pro family. Anything that diminishes this is the problem.  

This is what you were taught.  We can be taught things in error.  Einstein would attest to that. Yet, somethings we are taught are correct.
And how do we find out they’re correct? Can you give me something correct that I wouldn’t agree with you on?
 IDK.  I am sure you would agree that 2 + 2 = 4.  But I am confident too that you would deny that order and logic which math is built upon presumes a God of order.  Whereas no god means no order or logic - just randomness, and irrationality. 

Your dragon is a matter for you. If you choose to listen to this dragon, what is it to do with me. I suspect you listen to lots of things I might think are silly. Does that make all of them magical and superstitious? You might listen to music. I think that is a waste of time unless it is by someone who is proficient at it.
It seems to me you’re downplaying psychosis. 
I reckon you will need to explain what you mean there. 
You might like to listen to Donald Trump.  I have never met him. I have only seen him on videos. He seems pretty out there. Perhaps he is simply a fake persona. Should I choose to believe he is fake?
Much about him as a politician I would say is fake, unless he bizarrely changed many of his positions as a 70-80 year old. 
But is he real? 
I could come to your garage and ask you to show me your dragon.  Are you the only one to be able to see it? 
He’s invisible. But he’s still 100% there. 
That is convenient. How does he talk to you? 

I am sticking to context.   You are suggesting to me that your dragon in your garage is just as real for you as God is to me. I disagree. For instance - we both know you are producing this figment of imagination as a tool to demonstrate that god is also just imagination. The difficulty of course is we both know your dragon is a figment. In relation to God, you might think that of God but I don't hold that view at all.  The comparison simply does not hold water. 
For the sake of argument, I whole heartedly believe the dragon is real. 
Why do you believe it is real?

I in real life do pray to God. I also worship God. I have a book - which I understand through sound study and research and logical thinking to be God's words. I have an entire worldview - a comprehensive worldview tied up with God.  This is very different to a dragon you have intentionally invented to try and prove God is in the same league. It really is comparing apples with oranges. 
If you’re an atheist against the belief of my dragon, would that mean you’re agnostic with other religions? For example Hinduism is much older than Christianity with a rich culture. 
Yes, I am atheist about your dragon.  I am also atheist with other religions. And I am atheist about atheists. Does that help? Christianity in one sense began 2000 years ago at Pentecost. But in a much more realer sense it began before the creation of the Earth.  I personally don't see Pentecost as more than the birth of the church in a Gentile sense. For me the church existed in the OT and prior to Noah. Way back in the Garden of Eden - and even before that in the mind of Christ. 

But coming back to the question of other religions. I am exclusively Christian. 

I understand your sentiment - don't misunderstand me. I often use similar thoughts of argument but in the reverse direction. And with other religions. But to be perfectly honest, the way to make someone doubt the existence of God is much more complex than telling me you have dragon in your garage and that he is preventing you from murdering people, raping people, and from being gay. 

God does not prevent me from murdering people. He does not prevent me from raping people. He does not prevent me from being gay. I do say that but for my belief in God I could do all of those things. I do say that but for this morality that flows from God and his theology, that I would just live for myself.  The fact is - if God does not exist - then there are no eternal implications for me. And there are no historical ones either save for whatever this world throws at me. 
Many people from many religions use that argumentation against atheists. Personally I find it childish. We’re a species that’s about 300,000 years old. We evolved to do good. How we interpret good is a different matter. Religion was a way for an uneducated community to be on the same page, especially at scale. But now societies have educated populaces with laws that are easily enforceable compared to a few thousand years ago. 
I don't agree. I actually not arguing for God in this situation. I am arguing for how I would be without God.  If God does not exist - I make my own rules. I disagree that we evolved to do good. If we evolved - it was to survive. Good is too relative to be something people would evolve to do. It is importing onto the human something which is moral. That is nonsense.  A complete borrowing from someone else's worldview. 

If God does not exist - then truth is whatever I want it to be.  Facts might remain facts. But facts then just become a description of life that I can agree with or try and change if I wanted too.  
That’s the spirit. if It was the truth that you didn’t know a particular skill, but now you do, then all the power to you. 
It is only the extension of what you considered childish a moment ago. 
God has provided the world with a correct way to live. If we don't choose to live that way - then that inevitably means we will stuff up.
Did the christian God give other religions instructions on how to live too? Many of those instruction I bet you would disagree with. Even within Christianity. 
God gave humanity an instruction. Humanity did not like it. So the answer is - No. 
If we disregard his laws to not kill people - then life would be very messy. Yet if God did not exist, what is the reason not to kill?
firstly, most people don’t kill purely indiscriminately. Secondly, we are community oriented. There are countless repercussions, not just to yourself, but to your loved ones. 
Tell that to the Azteks. And every culture which has murdered millions of its people in sacrifices.  Tell that to the aborted foetuses every year. 

Does it not become the survival of the fittest?
Survival of the fittest means the best to adapt. Again, humans adapted to be community oriented, that’s how we best survived. 
My point exactly. Community orientated only if it will make you survive longer. But not otherwise. 
Don't I at that stage get to determine who lives and who dies?
At what cost?
I don't understand what you mean. 
Of course there are always going to be bigger and stronger people than me.  I naturally am going to make sure I don't annoy them.  To make people stop believing in God, you need to dig much deeper than you are.  This is because God is real. 
Societies exist regardless of your god.

Every culture in the history of humanity acknowledges God. God is an inescapable concept. 








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Not true. That a misconstruing of the Abrahamic religions position. I see you humor. I don't agree. Abrahamic religions are in favor of family and marriage. The purpose of marriage for the Abrahamic religions is primarily to raise children.  The purpose of sex primarily is to procreate. Of course it is not the only reason - but is the primary reason. (As it is in the animal world) Anything out of sync with this primary purpose is an aberration - and that is the point.  Not gayness, anymore than it is about adultery, as it is about pre marital sex, as it is about pornography, as it is about prostitution. Religions are not anti-gay. They are pro family. Anything that diminishes this is the problem. 
If that were true gay couples that wanted to adopt would have been accepted by the Christian community straight away. Don’t deceive yourself. Just Look at the verses of blind hatred in the bible.

IDK.  I am sure you would agree that 2 + 2 = 4.  But I am confident too that you would deny that order and logic which math is built upon presumes a God of order.  Whereas no god means no order or logic - just randomness, and irrationality.
1. Can you prove God is more than just a concept? The known universe is about 14 billion years old, we’ve existed for a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of that time. The universe is also really big. 99.99999999…% is uninhabitable to humans. Our planet is a speck of blue in a near empty void. But of course you would probably say that’s evidence for God. Imagine a universe without order (order is relative to the organism/environment btw) and without life. Would anyone be debating about whether there’s a god? No, because there’s no one to conceptualise it. Do you understand what I’m getting at?

2. Many animals consciously do math. Math in itself is nothing special. Humans have just greatly expanded upon it with the help of our vocal range that we evolved, which helped us communicate more complex ideas.

I reckon you will need to explain what you mean there. 
When speaking about truth, I would think hearing voices in your head isn’t that reliable. It’s also potentially dangerous for those who celebrate it, especially with religious conviction. There are millions of people who think the Abrahamic god speaks to them.

But is he real?
You were talking about Trump’s persona. People wear many hats. Which persona are you talking about exactly? 

That is convenient. How does he talk to you? 
I’d say it’s par for the course. he speaks to me with his presents and sometimes I hear him say things.

There’s other things you could ask such as if he gives off a thermal signature, or would you see his footprints if you placed flour down, etc. 

For the sake of argument, I whole heartedly believe the dragon is real. 
Why do you believe it is real?

I feel his presents in everything and he talks to me. 

Yes, I am atheist about your dragon.  I am also atheist with other religions. And I am atheist about atheists. Does that help? Christianity in one sense began 2000 years ago at Pentecost. But in a much more realer sense it began before the creation of the Earth.  I personally don't see Pentecost as more than the birth of the church in a Gentile sense. For me the church existed in the OT and prior to Noah. Way back in the Garden of Eden - and even before that in the mind of Christ. 

But coming back to the question of other religions. I am exclusively Christian. 
How is it more than just a concept? 

I don't agree. I actually not arguing for God in this situation. I am arguing for how I would be without God.  If God does not exist - I make my own rules. I disagree that we evolved to do good. If we evolved - it was to survive. Good is too relative to be something people would evolve to do. It is importing onto the human something which is moral. That is nonsense.  A complete borrowing from someone else's worldview. 
Ethics is how humans function. We’re a social species with standards. This is how we’ve survived. This how all social creatures survive. Yes, animals have moral considerations too — the ability to distinguish between good and bad, right and wrong.

which worldview exactly? I say all religions have borrowed from human nature to one existent or another.

It is only the extension of what you considered childish a moment ago.. 
I think you’re confused about what I was calling childish.

God gave humanity an instruction. Humanity did not like it. So the answer is - No
All the world, or just the Middle East? 

Tell that to the Azteks. And every culture which has murdered millions of its people in sacrifices.  Tell that to the aborted foetuses every year.
1. yes, ritual blood sacrifices are bad. But they’re not purely indiscriminate. They think their doing good to appease their gods. 


My point exactly. Community orientated only if it will make you survive longer. But not otherwise.
Well if there’s danger, then yeah sure. But it’s more complicated than that. What’s your point?

I don't understand what you mean. 
First, why would want to choose who lives and who dies? Why are you in that position in the first place?

Every culture in the history of humanity acknowledges God. God is an inescapable concept. 
How so? 

To some tribes religion itself wasn’t even a concept until we asked.
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If that were true gay couples that wanted to adopt would have been accepted by the Christian community straight away. Don’t deceive yourself. Just Look at the verses of blind hatred in the bible.
I used the word primarily didn't I? Not only.  Gay couples do adopt children don't they? There is no blind hatred of anything but sin in the bible by God and his people. There is also lots of blind hatred towards God and his people by sinners in the bible. Christian's don't hate gays. There will be gays in heaven.  Yet no Gay will get there simply because he is gay. And no straight person will get there because they are straight.  

1. Can you prove God is more than just a concept? The known universe is about 14 billion years old, we’ve existed for a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of that time. The universe is also really big. 99.99999999…% is uninhabitable to humans. Our planet is a speck of blue in a near empty void. But of course you would probably say that’s evidence for God. Imagine a universe without order (order is relative to the organism/environment btw) and without life. Would anyone be debating about whether there’s a god? No, because there’s no one to conceptualise it. Do you understand what I’m getting at?

Take a look outside of your window and observe the world. That is excellent evidence for proof of God. Take a look in your mirror. That too is proof. Look at all of the books on your bookshelf.  Again proof for God.  Everything is proof for God. God is not just a concept.  If God was just a concept, then nothing else would exist - and this conversation would not be happening. You are the one who needs proof for God, not me. I have no clue what evidence you would accept. I reckon your standard for the evidence for God is higher than proof for anything else. 

2. Many animals consciously do math. Math in itself is nothing special. Humans have just greatly expanded upon it with the help of our vocal range that we evolved, which helped us communicate more complex ideas.
I'm not sure what your point is here.  Animals understand the concept of God. Humans are different from the animals. Again - more evidence that God created humanity and the animals. 

When speaking about truth, I would think hearing voices in your head isn’t that reliable. It’s also potentially dangerous for those who celebrate it, especially with religious conviction. There are millions of people who think the Abrahamic god speaks to them.
I don't listen to voices inside my head. If I did, then I would go to the shrink and get some medication.  Millions of people think lots of things. So what? Democracy does not make something any more true than it makes it false. 


That is convenient. How does he talk to you? 
I’d say it’s par for the course. he speaks to me with his presents and sometimes I hear him say things.

There’s other things you could ask such as if he gives off a thermal signature, or would you see his footprints if you placed flour down, etc. 
Well - so that must mean your dragon is real - even more real than God.  Oh wait - everything exists because God does. 


For the sake of argument, I whole heartedly believe the dragon is real. 
Why do you believe it is real?

I feel his presents in everything and he talks to me. 

Yes, I am atheist about your dragon.  I am also atheist with other religions. And I am atheist about atheists. Does that help? Christianity in one sense began 2000 years ago at Pentecost. But in a much more realer sense it began before the creation of the Earth.  I personally don't see Pentecost as more than the birth of the church in a Gentile sense. For me the church existed in the OT and prior to Noah. Way back in the Garden of Eden - and even before that in the mind of Christ. 

But coming back to the question of other religions. I am exclusively Christian. 
I must admit that this little delusion you have of a dragon is unhelpful.  You are intentionally making something up - and attempting then to compare apples with oranges. It does not assist at all. 

I don't agree. I actually not arguing for God in this situation. I am arguing for how I would be without God.  If God does not exist - I make my own rules. I disagree that we evolved to do good. If we evolved - it was to survive. Good is too relative to be something people would evolve to do. It is importing onto the human something which is moral. That is nonsense.  A complete borrowing from someone else's worldview. 
Ethics is how humans function. We’re a social species with standards. This is how we’ve survived. This how all social creatures survive. Yes, animals have moral considerations too — the ability to distinguish between good and bad, right and wrong.

And your point is .....

which worldview exactly? I say all religions have borrowed from human nature to one existent or another.
I am sure you would. But atheism MUST borrow from other worldviews - because it is not a worldview. Secular Humanism also borrows from other worldviews - because if secular humanism is true - then there is nothing but randomness and chaos. 


Tell that to the Azteks. And every culture which has murdered millions of its people in sacrifices.  Tell that to the aborted foetuses every year.
1. yes, ritual blood sacrifices are bad. But they’re not purely indiscriminate. They think their doing good to appease their gods. 


My point exactly. Community orientated only if it will make you survive longer. But not otherwise.
Well if there’s danger, then yeah sure. But it’s more complicated than that. What’s your point?

I don't understand what you mean. 
First, why would want to choose who lives and who dies? Why are you in that position in the first place?

Every culture in the history of humanity acknowledges God. God is an inescapable concept. 
How so? 

To some tribes religion itself wasn’t even a concept until we asked.
Seriously. 

Do you want to have a proper discussion or not? 











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I used the word primarily didn't I? Not only.   
That was said about marriage? That goes to my point. 

Gay couples do adopt children don't they?
In spite of the Christian community. 

There is no blind hatred of anything but sin in the bible by God and his people.
And being gay is a sin, isn’t it?

There is also lots of blind hatred towards God and his people by sinners in the bible.
Blind hatred? God tells his followers to kill gays. Are you really trying to pull the victim card?

Christian's don't hate gays. There will be gays in heaven.  Yet no Gay will get there simply because he is gay. And no straight person will get there because they are straight.
The wonders of modernity. 

Take a look outside of your window and observe the world. That is excellent evidence for proof of God. Take a look in your mirror. That too is proof. Look at all of the books on your bookshelf.  Again proof for God.  Everything is proof for God. God is not just a concept.  If God was just a concept, then nothing else would exist - and this conversation would not be happening. You are the one who needs proof for God, not me. I have no clue what evidence you would accept. I reckon your standard for the evidence for God is higher than proof for anything else. 
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. None what you’ve said comes close other than what you feel. 

I'm not sure what your point is here.  Animals understand the concept of God. Humans are different from the animals. Again - more evidence that God created humanity and the animals. 
How is math and God linked? Don’t just tell me how you feel.

I don't listen to voices inside my head. If I did, then I would go to the shrink and get some medication.  Millions of people think lots of things. So what? Democracy does not make something any more true than it makes it false. 
It’s nice you would get help, but If you came across a Christian ceremony with someone speaking in tongue, it seems to me you would be indifferent.

Well - so that must mean your dragon is real - even more real than God.  Oh wait - everything exists because God does. 
You don’t even know how I was going to answer. 

For the sake of argument, I whole heartedly believe the dragon is real. 
Why do you believe it is real?

I feel his presents in everything and he talks to me. 

Yes, I am atheist about your dragon.  I am also atheist with other religions. And I am atheist about atheists. Does that help? Christianity in one sense began 2000 years ago at Pentecost. But in a much more realer sense it began before the creation of the Earth.  I personally don't see Pentecost as more than the birth of the church in a Gentile sense. For me the church existed in the OT and prior to Noah. Way back in the Garden of Eden - and even before that in the mind of Christ. 

But coming back to the question of other religions. I am exclusively Christian. 
I must admit that this little delusion you have of a dragon is unhelpful.  You are intentionally making something up - and attempting then to compare apples with oranges. It does not assist at all. 
What? I really believe a dragons in my garage! He also says the Christian god is a false god. I told him you wouldn’t like that but he insisted. 

And your point is ….
Within the context of social creatures, survival in an evolutionary lens is more complicated than just living. It’s figuring out how to get along with others to increase chances of reproducing. 

I am sure you would. But atheism MUST borrow from other worldviews - because it is not a worldview. Secular Humanism also borrows from other worldviews - because if secular humanism is true - then there is nothing but randomness and chaos. 
You’re right, atheism isn’t a worldview by itself, other than describing ones position on the existence of gods. So stop treating it more than it is. Atheism shouldn’t even need to exist. 

As for humanism or “secular humanism” as you call it, what worldviews does it borrow from? The Enlightenment? Then yeah, sure. 

Seriously. 

Do you want to have a proper discussion or not? 
What’s the problem? 
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They may not pretend. In as much as they are conditioned theists.

But their religion is a pretence.
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The example in the topic started is based on two existing religions so the short answer is yes. But atheists think theists are stupid so what difference does the religion make. 
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I used the word primarily didn't I? Not only.   
That was said about marriage? That goes to my point. 

Gay couples do adopt children don't they?
In spite of the Christian community. 

There is no blind hatred of anything but sin in the bible by God and his people.
And being gay is a sin, isn’t it?

There is also lots of blind hatred towards God and his people by sinners in the bible.
Blind hatred? God tells his followers to kill gays. Are you really trying to pull the victim card?

Christian's don't hate gays. There will be gays in heaven.  Yet no Gay will get there simply because he is gay. And no straight person will get there because they are straight.
The wonders of modernity. 
LOL @ the way you twist words.  I was not playing a victim card. I was expressing the point that the bible contains lots of information and it is a two way street. Many believers were killed by non-believers and vica versa.  You can't say - it's all filled with hate and just leave it there. So much nonsense. It is the same with gays.  Yes, the Bible considers homosexuality a sin. Yet it is not the unforgiveable sin. It also considers adultery a sin but not the unforgiveable sin.  Christians don't want people to steal or to kill or do anything that God says is sinful.  God gives us our definition of sin - not democracy or the latest political policies or the latest psychobabble.  

Take a look outside of your window and observe the world. That is excellent evidence for proof of God. Take a look in your mirror. That too is proof. Look at all of the books on your bookshelf.  Again proof for God.  Everything is proof for God. God is not just a concept.  If God was just a concept, then nothing else would exist - and this conversation would not be happening. You are the one who needs proof for God, not me. I have no clue what evidence you would accept. I reckon your standard for the evidence for God is higher than proof for anything else. 
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. None what you’ve said comes close other than what you feel. 
That is where you have it backwards. I am not making an extraordinary claim.  I am making a simple - common sense one.  It's got nothing to do with my feelings. 

I'm not sure what your point is here.  Animals understand the concept of God. Humans are different from the animals. Again - more evidence that God created humanity and the animals. 
How is math and God linked? Don’t just tell me how you feel.
Isn't it obvious?  Math requires logic and principles which are ABSOLUTE and consistent.  Without God, those things cannot happen for a myriad of reasons.  Take the natural extensions of post modernism the great move away from consistency and absolutes and reality. Anything is ok- morals, science, theology, sociology, law, now everything is fluid.  Math is going the way of the dodo. Why? Because it is being led down the path by nominalists. 


I don't listen to voices inside my head. If I did, then I would go to the shrink and get some medication.  Millions of people think lots of things. So what? Democracy does not make something any more true than it makes it false. 
It’s nice you would get help, but If you came across a Christian ceremony with someone speaking in tongue, it seems to me you would be indifferent.
I don't believe people speak in tongues in our culture or our time. So you are incorrect.  I wouldn't get help for myself I heard others in a church service speaking nonsense.  

What? I really believe a dragons in my garage! He also says the Christian god is a false god. I told him you wouldn’t like that but he insisted. 
Whatever? I don't see the point of discussing with you the reality of something of which you don't believe and are doing so for the sake of the argument. It is apples and oranges. Why don't you try to convince me of something you do believe in? Like the Solomon Islands. And do it without referring to either your testimony or someone elses.
And your point is ….
Within the context of social creatures, survival in an evolutionary lens is more complicated than just living. It’s figuring out how to get along with others to increase chances of reproducing. 
so it is not to evolve to do good - then thanks for agreeing it is about survival.

I am sure you would. But atheism MUST borrow from other worldviews - because it is not a worldview. Secular Humanism also borrows from other worldviews - because if secular humanism is true - then there is nothing but randomness and chaos. 
You’re right, atheism isn’t a worldview by itself, other than describing ones position on the existence of gods. So stop treating it more than it is. Atheism shouldn’t even need to exist. 
Well atheism doesn't exist except as a concept.  Hmmm!!

As for humanism or “secular humanism” as you call it, what worldviews does it borrow from? The Enlightenment? Then yeah, sure. 

Seriously. 

Do you want to have a proper discussion or not? 
What’s the problem? 

The problem is - you keep going around in circles. 






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The example in the topic started is based on two existing religions so the short answer is yes. But atheists think theists are stupid so what difference does the religion make. 
There are plenty of smart theists just as there are plenty of dumb atheists. 
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LOL @ the way you twist words.  I was not playing a victim card. I was expressing the point that the bible contains lots of information and it is a two way street. Many believers were killed by non-believers and vica versa. You can't say - it's all filled with hate and just leave it there. So much nonsense. It is the same with gays.  Yes, the Bible considers homosexuality a sin. Yet it is not the unforgiveable sin. It also considers adultery a sin but not the unforgiveable sin.  Christians don't want people to steal or to kill or do anything that God says is sinful.  God gives us our definition of sin - not democracy or the latest political policies or the latest psychobabble. 
Do you think homosexuality is a choice? 

That is where you have it backwards. I am not making an extraordinary claim.  I am making a simple - common sense one.  It's got nothing to do with my feelings. 
You told me to observe the world. The world (all of known existence) functions independent of any intervention from a god.
How are you concluding there’s a god (specifically the Christian god) from just looking at the world? 

Isn't it obvious?  Math requires logic and principles which are ABSOLUTE and consistent.  Without God, those things cannot happen for a myriad of reasons.  Take the natural extensions of post modernism the great move away from consistency and absolutes and reality. Anything is ok- morals, science, theology, sociology, law, now everything is fluid.  Math is going the way of the dodo. Why? Because it is being led down the path by nominalists. 
Math is as absolute as a person solving a specific problem (that we perceive) with specific math (that we formulate).
Dare I say, math is in fact socially constructed. Saying “math is absolute” is arbitrary.
Is math that solves a problem more efficiently, more absolute than prior math? I assume you’re synonymising absolute with perfect.
Does that mean at times God isn’t perfect? That’s what you’re doing right, equating God with math? 

I don't believe people speak in tongues in our culture or our time. So you are incorrect.  I wouldn't get help for myself I heard others in a church service speaking nonsense.  
She was one of Trump’s faith advisers in The White House.


Whatever? I don't see the point of discussing with you the reality of something of which you don't believe and are doing so for the sake of the argument. It is apples and oranges. Why don't you try to convince me of something you do believe in? Like the Solomon Islands. And do it without referring to either your testimony or someone elses.
If my dragon and your god are apples and oranges (fruit/religion) then what would you consider the Solomon Islands/reality?

No but seriously what’s wrong with testimony? I’m not trying to limit your thoughts on the matter. I’m evaluating them. If you feel ideologically threatened, don’t engage. Although it’s healthy to do so. 

so it is not to evolve to do good - then thanks for agreeing it is about survival.
And how do we survive as a social species? By doing good by one another. It fosters stability. 

Well atheism doesn't exist except as a concept.  Hmmm!!
Atheism is the lack of belief in gods. So yeah. 

The problem is - you keep going around in circles. 
I keep going around in circles? How so? 
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Mr circular.

GODS don't define sin.

People define sin and attribute their definition to their particular GOD.

And gay is simply a modus operandi.

And marriage is simply associated bunkum.

And one takes it all as seriously as one is conditioned to take it.
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Do you think homosexuality is a choice? 
Do you think sin is a choice or not? 

That is where you have it backwards. I am not making an extraordinary claim.  I am making a simple - common sense one.  It's got nothing to do with my feelings. 
You told me to observe the world. The world (all of known existence) functions independent of any intervention from a god.
How are you concluding there’s a god (specifically the Christian god) from just looking at the world? 
Yes, I did because God is not found by looking into the mysteries of extraordinary things. That is the stuff of magic and superstition. There is a story of a guy called Naaman in the OT. He was sick from a disease and when he went to a prophet of God to be healed. The prophet told him to go and bath in the muddy old Jordan.  This mighty warrior from another place thought God would have him do something amazing. He wanted something special and extraordinary. Yet God gave him the mundane to do.  God does not need to reveal himself in the extraordinary because everything including most commonly is the ordinary.  God does not need to prove who he is by doing wonderful amazing things. He has no need to bignote himself. He is not worried about himself. He is not going through an identity crisis. He provides the ordinary things in life for all of us.  Romans 1 tells us this truth.  The creation around us is ample evidence for God's existence. So ample that no one is ever going to be able to say "I didn't know".  It is the ignorant who refuse to see what is right there before their eyes. Another word for ignorant is pride. 

Math is as absolute as a person solving a specific problem (that we perceive) with specific math (that we formulate).
Dare I say, math is in fact socially constructed. Saying “math is absolute” is arbitrary.
Is math that solves a problem more efficiently, more absolute than prior math? I assume you’re synonymising absolute with perfect.
Does that mean at times God isn’t perfect? That’s what you’re doing right, equating God with math? 
Wow! your mind finds it hard to stay on one subject.  I never said Math was perfect. Nor did I say that math reflects God's image. I indicated that math is based on some assumptions-  like consistency and principles.  Without such math is pointless or meaningless.  Humanity is trending away from absolutes and principles since this is more consistent with its own worldview.  Yet math requires consistency - hence the requirement of God.

I don't believe people speak in tongues in our culture or our time. So you are incorrect.  I wouldn't get help for myself I heard others in a church service speaking nonsense.  
She was one of Trump’s faith advisers in The White House.

Care?  I'm not a fan of Trump. I don't agree with speaking in tongues. 

If my dragon and your god are apples and oranges (fruit/religion) then what would you consider the Solomon Islands/reality?
My point is try arguing for something you actually believe in and prove it's existence. You have been starting with a false assumption. One that God does not exist - and that I don't really believe in God but are just pretending.  Or that I don't have sufficient proof to prove God. Hence your figment of delusion - a dragon. 


No but seriously what’s wrong with testimony? I’m not trying to limit your thoughts on the matter. I’m evaluating them. If you feel ideologically threatened, don’t engage. Although it’s healthy to do so. 
Well good. I think testimony is ok for evidence. Most atheists would never agree. Take Stephen for instance and others too.  I am not feeling threatened - why would you think that? I just don't want to waste time discussing something that you are not taking seriously.  Your dragon is evidence you are not taking it seriously. 

so it is not to evolve to do good - then thanks for agreeing it is about survival.
And how do we survive as a social species? By doing good by one another. It fosters stability. 
No, I don't agree.  Good can foster stability - but there is no logical reason for that. And no reason why people would evolve that way. Survival is a much stronger reason to do bad.  Hence the proverb kill or be killed. Survival of the strongest. fight or flee.  

Well atheism doesn't exist except as a concept.  Hmmm!!
Atheism is the lack of belief in gods. So yeah. 
Ok. Another concession. this is going well.  


The problem is - you keep going around in circles. 
I keep going around in circles? How so? 
Well think dragon despite the fact that I told you it was not helpful.  








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Mr circular.
Hi Zed. 

GODS don't define sin.
Correct. God does. 

People define sin and attribute their definition to their particular GOD.
Wrong. God defines sin. 

And gay is simply a modus operandi.
Gay is a name some give to those who are "happy".  Others use it to refer to homosexuals.

And marriage is simply associated bunkum.
Marriage is the formalisation of the beginning of a family. Families are one of the three genuine and authoritative institutions in society. The other two being the STATE and the CHURCH. 


And one takes it all as seriously as one is conditioned to take it.
Using the term conditioned is a cop out and a weak excuse for irresponsibility. 
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Or that I don't have sufficient proof to prove God. 

Which you don't have . 
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Do you think sin is a choice or not? 
Do you think God made us in his Image? God’s kinda gay dude. 

Yes, I did because God is not found by looking into the mysteries of extraordinary things. That is the stuff of magic and superstition.
Nonsensical answer. Extraordinary isn’t a magical or superstitious term, unlike some other words you warship. 

There is a story of a guy called Naaman in the OT. He was sick from a disease and when he went to a prophet of God to be healed. The prophet told him to go and bath in the muddy old Jordan.  This mighty warrior from another place thought God would have him do something amazing. He wanted something special and extraordinary. Yet God gave him the mundane to do.  God does not need to reveal himself in the extraordinary because everything including most commonly is the ordinary.  God does not need to prove who he is by doing wonderful amazing things. He has no need to bignote himself. He is not worried about himself. He is not going through an identity crisis. He provides the ordinary things in life for all of us.  Romans 1 tells us this truth.  The creation around us is ample evidence for God's existence. So ample that no one is ever going to be able to say "I didn't know".  It is the ignorant who refuse to see what is right there before their eyes. Another word for ignorant is pride. 
I’m sure you can find a better word than ignorant. Ignorant just means having a lack of knowledge. There have been millions upon millions of people throughout history who didn’t know anything about a Christian god. Are they all in hell now because of their pride or whatever? What about fetuses, where do they go?

Wow! your mind finds it hard to stay on one subject. 
I’m just asking questions. I’m interested in the answers you give. 

I never said Math was perfect. Nor did I say that math reflects God's image.
Though you did say math is absolute (with logic and principles) and without God those things cannot happen.
Kind of nonsensical, but that’s what you said.

I indicated that math is based on some assumptions-  like consistency and principles.  Without such math is pointless or meaningless. 
I know you’re trying to downplay what you’ve perviously said.

Humanity is trending away from absolutes and principles since this is more consistent with its own worldview.  Yet math requires consistency - hence the requirement of God.
Humanity learns and develops. Including better mathematics for better models. 

My point is try arguing for something you actually believe in and prove it's existence. You have been starting with a false assumption. One that God does not exist - and that I don't really believe in God but are just pretending.  Or that I don't have sufficient proof to prove God. Hence your figment of delusion - a dragon
Here’s the original:

The Dagon in my Garage
by Carl Sagan 


Well good. I think testimony is ok for evidence. Most atheists would never agree. Take Stephen for instance and others too. 
But is testimony of a religious experience sufficient enough to say the Christian god definitively exists? How do you know it’s not something else like some other god or your mind playing tricks on you? Throughout history there have been people of strong faith in all sorts of religions. 

I am not feeling threatened - why would you think that? I just don't want to waste time discussing something that you are not taking seriously.  Your dragon is evidence you are not taking it seriously. 
Please read the Link up above ^

No, I don't agree.  Good can foster stability - but there is no logical reason for that. And no reason why people would evolve that way. Survival is a much stronger reason to do bad. 
Why do you feel that way?

 Hence the proverb kill or be killed. Survival of the strongest. fight or flee.  
what does “kill or be killed” mean exactly? It’s more like kill or die. That’s what mammals and many other organisms do for nutrients. 

“survival of the strongest” means survival of the best to adapt to ones environment to pass on genetic data. It’s not necessarily about brutishness.

Fight or flight is a description of how many animals react when they feel threatened. Pretty straight forward. 


None of these are good reasons why cooperation is not in our best interest.  
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@Reece101
Do you think sin is a choice or not? 
Do you think God made us in his Image? God’s kinda gay dude. 
So you don't have an answer? Ok.  Yes, Humanity is made in the image and likeness of God. 

Yes, I did because God is not found by looking into the mysteries of extraordinary things. That is the stuff of magic and superstition.
Nonsensical answer. Extraordinary isn’t a magical or superstitious term, unlike some other words you warship. 
It's not nonsensical. You suggested originally that I was asserting extraordinary claims - therefore I needed to produce extraordinary evidence. I said that was nonsense since It misunderstands the reality of God.  I think searching for miracles and magic and supernatural things in relation to God is superstitious mumbo jumbo.  God is all powerful and can do whatever he pleases, does not mean he is going to perform for us like a puppet when we call.  God has created this world we live in - and for me and the Scriptures that is where he is meeting with us.  If we cannot see God in the creation we are ignorant. 

It is the ignorant who refuse to see what is right there before their eyes. Another word for ignorant is pride. 
I’m sure you can find a better word than ignorant. Ignorant just means having a lack of knowledge. There have been millions upon millions of people throughout history who didn’t know anything about a Christian god. Are they all in hell now because of their pride or whatever? What about fetuses, where do they go?
I did. It was pride. A better word is selfish. An even better word is idolatry. And an even better word is sinful.  Yes, you are right. There are millions of people in history who died not knowing the God of the universe.  They died not knowing the God who controls and plans history.  God is the author of life. If people are in Hell then that is because they refused to acknowledge the creator of this world. A choice they freely made and nobody took from them.  Do fetuses go to Hell? Excellent question. Personally, I don't have an answer - save and except, that I believe that God saves everyone through Jesus. Yet thankfully, I am not God. What God does in his own way is a matter for him.  I don't have an issue with that because I believe fully that everything God does is good and just.  It is an assumption. or an axiom. 

Wow! your mind finds it hard to stay on one subject. 
I’m just asking questions. I’m interested in the answers you give. 
Happy to oblige. 

I never said Math was perfect. Nor did I say that math reflects God's image.
Though you did say math is absolute (with logic and principles) and without God those things cannot happen.
Kind of nonsensical, but that’s what you said.

I indicated that math is based on some assumptions-  like consistency and principles.  Without such math is pointless or meaningless. 
I know you’re trying to downplay what you’ve perviously said.
No that is an unfair characterization of my point. I took issue with you suggesting that math was perfect. I never said that. God is perfect. I do not think that therefore everything else is perfect.  I said math is based on reason and logic. Humanity evolved not through reason or logic but haphazardly and without foresight or reason and logic. It survived according to most by the randomness attached within the survival of the fittest. Natural Selection. Not a foresight. Still random - because there is no brain behind or force behind evolution - just the desire to continue living. 



My point is try arguing for something you actually believe in and prove it's existence. You have been starting with a false assumption. One that God does not exist - and that I don't really believe in God but are just pretending.  Or that I don't have sufficient proof to prove God. Hence your figment of delusion - a dragon
Here’s the original:

The Dagon in my Garage
by Carl Sagan 


Yes, I have read that before. A few years ago - but it is preaching to the converted.  And is flawed in many ways.


Well good. I think testimony is ok for evidence. Most atheists would never agree. Take Stephen for instance and others too. 
But is testimony of a religious experience sufficient enough to say the Christian god definitively exists? How do you know it’s not something else like some other god or your mind playing tricks on you? Throughout history there have been people of strong faith in all sorts of religions. 
I don't give testimony of a religious experience very much weight. It certainly would not prove to me that God exists.  Or doesn't exist for that matter. so to answer your first question, No it is not. People do have hallucinations. People do have tricks played on them.  People are passionate about lots of things. Not sure what you are trying to do here. Yet it does not fit with my understanding at all. 

I am not feeling threatened - why would you think that? I just don't want to waste time discussing something that you are not taking seriously.  Your dragon is evidence you are not taking it seriously. 
Please read the Link up above ^
Read it again.   Full of flaws. Can you pick it or not? I will wait for you to seriously attempt to pick the flaws. 

No, I don't agree.  Good can foster stability - but there is no logical reason for that. And no reason why people would evolve that way. Survival is a much stronger reason to do bad. 
Why do you feel that way?
Because that is the natural extension of the logic of natural selection and evolution. There is no mind behind evolution. It is random - it is survival that counts - not doing good. 

 Hence the proverb kill or be killed. Survival of the strongest. fight or flee.  
what does “kill or be killed” mean exactly? It’s more like kill or die. That’s what mammals and many other organisms do for nutrients. 

“survival of the strongest” means survival of the best to adapt to ones environment to pass on genetic data. It’s not necessarily about brutishness.

Fight or flight is a description of how many animals react when they feel threatened. Pretty straight forward. 


None of these are good reasons why cooperation is not in our best interest.  


Cooperation has benefits but competition has more.  Cooperation is not the opposite of competition by the way.  The opposite of cooperation is non-cooperation.  The opposite of competition is monopoly.  Cooperation is really a form of submission. 

Non-competition means no options or no choices.  I prefer competition and dislike cooperation unless I am the one who is in control. 





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@Tradesecret
Hi Trade.

Wrong....Humans define GODS, therefore humans define sin....That's irrefutable logic.


The formalisation of the beginning of a family....Mother, Father, Progeny, begins when the sperm fertilizes the egg.

How "a family" might proceed from thereon in, is variable...Though conditioning will have a big influence.


True...Gay is a somewhat hijacked word....Though in terms of homosexuality, it all boils down to the achievement of sexual gratification, via an alternative modus operandi to the one previously mentioned.


And conditioning is...Which may result in irresponsibility.

Promoting religious fiction as the basis of universal reality is a tad irresponsible, but it's just how some people have been conditioned to process misinformation.

Flesh and blood and conditioning maketh the person, that maketh their GOD.
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So you don't have an answer? Ok.  Yes, Humanity is made in the image and likeness of God. 
You didn’t answer my question, so I responded in kind.  Try to be a bit more multi faceted in your responses.

And homosexuals didn't choose to be created gay, correct?

It's not nonsensical. You suggested originally that I was asserting extraordinary claims - therefore I needed to produce extraordinary evidence. I said that was nonsense since It misunderstands the reality of God.  I think searching for miracles and magic and supernatural things in relation to God is superstitious mumbo jumbo. 
Like I said, extraordinary does not refer to magic or the supernatural.  

God is all powerful and can do whatever he pleases, does not mean he is going to perform for us like a puppet when we call.  God has created this world we live in - and for me and the Scriptures that is where he is meeting with us.  If we cannot see God in the creation we are ignorant. 
The first thing is to admit you’re ignorant of ultimate truths. That’s how you expand your horizon. There’s always something more ultimate than what you already know. For example a god which is omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (all-present), and omniscient (all-knowing), is completely ruled by its own fate. Every thought and action that god makes, is predetermined. If you say he can choose to be ignorant about something, my response is, does it matter? he would have known prior.  

I did. It was pride. A better word is selfish. An even better word is idolatry. And an even better word is sinful.  Yes, you are right. There are millions of people in history who died not knowing the God of the universe.  They died not knowing the God who controls and plans history.  God is the author of life. If people are in Hell then that is because they refused to acknowledge the creator of this world. A choice they freely made and nobody took from them. 
They didn’t have a choice in the matter in a world where God is the ultimate arbiter. 

Do fetuses go to Hell? Excellent question. Personally, I don't have an answer - save and except, that I believe that God saves everyone through Jesus. Yet thankfully, I am not God. What God does in his own way is a matter for him.  I don't have an issue with that because I believe fully that everything God does is good and just.  It is an assumption. or an axiom. 
So if they go to hell, God’s good and just regardless? That begs a follow up question if your answer is yes.

No that is an unfair characterization of my point. I took issue with you suggesting that math was perfect. I never said that. God is perfect. I do not think that therefore everything else is perfect.  I said math is based on reason and logic.
Which you said is “ABSOLUTE”.

Humanity evolved not through reason or logic but haphazardly and without foresight or reason and logic. It survived according to most by the randomness attached within the survival of the fittest. Natural Selection. Not a foresight. Still random - because there is no brain behind or force behind evolution - just the desire to continue living. 
It wasn’t an easy journey either. There’s a couple of times when humanity almost went extinct, both modern and early humans. 
It is no surprise we are up there in terms of most adaptive species. It’s thanks to our cooperative brain. 

Yes, I have read that before. A few years ago - but it is preaching to the converted.  And is flawed in many ways.
How so?

Because that is the natural extension of the logic of natural selection and evolution. There is no mind behind evolution. It is random - it is survival that counts - not doing good. 
In your view, what would the logical actions be of a human in which we’ve evolved?

Cooperation has benefits but competition has more.  Cooperation is not the opposite of competition by the way.  The opposite of cooperation is non-cooperation.  The opposite of competition is monopoly.  Cooperation is really a form of submission. 

Non-competition means no options or no choices.  I prefer competition and dislike cooperation unless I am the one who is in control. 
Cooperation is the basis for all consensual transactions if you want to become libertarian about it. 
But the world’s more complicated than that. 


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@Polytheist-Witch
But atheists think theists are stupid 
I will let Gary O'Reilly speak for me. He says:

I’m an atheist, one of those crazy internet ones who actively believe there is no god rather than just not actively believing in one.
I used to think theists were stupid. And being somewhat theistic (or at least deistic) myself as a youth, I thought that my younger self was stupid too.
Nowadays I’ve grown up a lot, had various discussions about belief that were more than “haha they thought a bush set itself on fire and spoke to a guy” you get on some of those atheist forums and stuff. So I don’t think theists are stupid, but there is an undeniable sense that there’s something weird about the idea. It’s like if someone you knew just absolutely insisted that 2+2 = 6. Everything else is fine, they’re not an asshole and you get on with them well, but they’re firm on that. You’re not going to cut them out of your life, and you’re going to remain friends with them, but every now and then the thought “this guy thinks 2 + 2 = 6” is gonna pop into your head and weird you out a little bit.
I don’t know if theists can truly understand just how weird and sinister religion and religious belief can appear to someone who is completely outside of it. And that’s a barrier you can never quite get over, I don’t think. There’s always that thought at the back of your head that says “this guy believes in some weird stuff, man, and even bases his life around it” and that is fundamentally disturbing to me. Not massively so. Not “I’m gonna take the kids and run screaming from your presence” disturbing. Not even “I’m not going to invite you to the next social event” disturbing, but it’s there, and it’s something I can never quite, 100% get out of my considerations.
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Now we're weird and sinister, such evil people if we only all died so you could rule the planet and happiness and health. There would never be a war or death, rape or assault.  The sinister evil theists with their weird ideas and they're weird thoughts and they're weird behaviors, they bring everything evil to the planet I wish they'd all die. Now tell me again how y'all you don't come here and say this crap to us because you can't say it to the people in your life cuz they never speak to you again explain it to me cuz you would be lying. 
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@Polytheist-Witch

Well, there have been many cases of sexual abuse of children by Catholic priestsnuns and members of religious orders.