Would You Join This Religion?

Don’t play dumb. 

Yeah, you know what else is true, the dragon in my garage. 

You aren’t playing dumb. I’ll give you that.

You know what else hasn’t been refuted? The dragon in my garage. 

Does a bandwagon matter? In a sense they do if they’re all trivialising truth as well. 

My point is, something which is unfalsifiable does not equal truth.

Can you prove there isn’t a dragon in my garage? If not, it must be true, correct?

Does a bandwagon matter? In a sense they do if they’re all trivialising truth as well. 

You will have to explain what you mean? 

Again, you seem to be speaking doublespeak.  I don't care that you think there is a dragon in your garage.  Whether you can prove one or not is entirely irrelevant to me - since I don't think dragons - (well apart from Komodo Dragons) exist. ) 

I am not asking you to prove that one exists in your garage.  Personally I think the suggestion that a dragon in your garage is equivalent to God is about as comparable to the notion that vaccine mandates are like the holocaust in Germany. Little similarities do not make the comparison proper or correct. It is demeaning and insulting to the nth degree. 

If you would be so kind as to make the connection it would be helpful. 

Does a bandwagon matter? In a sense they do if they’re all trivialising truth as well. 

You will have to explain what you mean? 

There’s a fallacy called the bandwagon fallacy AKA the appeal to common belief.

Truth isn’t based on “common sense”. Would you agree? 

Again, you seem to be speaking doublespeak.  I don't care that you think there is a dragon in your garage.  Whether you can prove one or not is entirely irrelevant to me - since I don't think dragons - (well apart from Komodo Dragons) exist. ) 

Wait, so you don’t think the dragon in my garage is real? It’s irrational to think otherwise. He created the universe for dragon sake. If he didn’t exist I’d be going out murdering and raping people. I might even turn gay. 

I am not asking you to prove that one exists in your garage.  Personally I think the suggestion that a dragon in your garage is equivalent to God is about as comparable to the notion that vaccine mandates are like the holocaust in Germany. Little similarities do not make the comparison proper or correct. It is demeaning and insulting to the nth degree. 

If you would be so kind as to make the connection it would be helpful. 

You know what else is insulting to the nth degree, trivialising truth by synonymising it with faith. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Truth may be at times based on common sense.

I don't have a problem with that per se.  I don't think that just because a majority of people believe something that it is the truth.  For me - truth is an absolute.  But not necessarily an absolute for all time. Although it might be. Truth exists within parameters.

I don't have to care whether your dragon is real or not. That is a matter for you. For me, your view is not the determiner of truth.  To call me irrational because I don't agree with you is a matter for you - but it is not based in fact or reality.  A dragon did not create the universe simply because you think it did.  But the universe did not suddenly come into place all by itself either. If you really think that the dragon made the world, how did you come to this conclusion?  If your dragon stops you from murdering and raping people - I think "good on the dragon".  I am not sure what gay has got to do with anything. 

Everyone has faith. Pretending faith is not part of reality is a lie and a deception. No one could last a day without faith.  I am very proud of myself. 

Truth may be at times based on common sense.

It’s the other way around. Common sense may be at times based on truth. Belief in gods ain’t one. 

I don't have a problem with that per se.  I don't think that just because a majority of people believe something that it is the truth.  For me - truth is an absolute.  But not necessarily an absolute for all time. Although it might be. Truth exists within parameters.

There are very few things I call absolute. Colloquially I consider it used just as an expression. However, it does not take away the linguistical importance of what we call true. 

I don't have to care whether your dragon is real or not. That is a matter for you. For me, your view is not the determiner of truth.  To call me irrational because I don't agree with you is a matter for you - but it is not based in fact or reality.  A dragon did not create the universe simply because you think it did.  But the universe did not suddenly come into place all by itself either. If you really think that the dragon made the world, how did you come to this conclusion?  If your dragon stops you from murdering and raping people - I think "good on the dragon".  I am not sure what gay has got to do with anything. 

I was taught it. The dragon also talks to me. He says stop being gay. 

Everyone has faith. Pretending faith is not part of reality is a lie and a deception. No one could last a day without faith.  I am very proud of myself. 

By faith I meant faith in a god.

Faith is ambiguous by itself. It could mean faith in ones own ability to achieve, which isn’t what I meant. 

Can you please try to contextualise what we’re discussing. Yes I know it’s advantageous for you to not stick to context. 

I honestly don't have a clue what you are saying.  Common sense - touch, smell, sight, sound, taste are the five common senses - common to most people on this planet.

The truth today that secular thinking is rising is not the same as the truth 50 years ago that secular thinking was declining.  Common Sense provides at times a basis for truth.  If I see water falling out of the sky, it may well provide the truth - that it is raining.  Of course there might be other reasons water is falling out of the sky, but the common sense notion that most people would recognize would accord to this the basis of truth. 

Truth is not the same as common sense.  Yet some common sense notions provide us with a basis of truth.  

Can common sense be based on truth? I suppose so.  God is truth. God created the world. God created the senses. Senses therefore are based on truth. 

The usage of belief in God is really quite an unhelpful phrase.  What does belief mean? The Bible says that Satan and his demons believe in God. Yet this belief is not the means of their salvation. I actually think EVERY PERSON is hardwired with assumption that God is true.  People naturally understand God from the moment they are conceived.  In fact I truly opine that to choose not to believe God is irrational per se. 

True is actually just being in accord with the measuring stick or tool.  The truth in one sense cannot change. But truth is more than just a random fact thrown out to prove a point. 

Why is being gay a problem? 

This is what you were taught.  We can be taught things in error.  Einstein would attest to that. Yet, somethings we are taught are correct.

Your dragon is a matter for you. If you choose to listen to this dragon, what is it to do with me. I suspect you listen to lots of things I might think are silly. Does that make all of them magical and superstitious? You might listen to music. I think that is a waste of time unless it is by someone who is proficient at it.

You might like to listen to Donald Trump.  I have never met him. I have only seen him on videos. He seems pretty out there. Perhaps he is simply a fake persona. Should I choose to believe he is fake?

I could come to your garage and ask you to show me your dragon.  Are you the only one to be able to see it? 

I am sticking to context.   You are suggesting to me that your dragon in your garage is just as real for you as God is to me. I disagree. For instance - we both know you are producing this figment of imagination as a tool to demonstrate that god is also just imagination. The difficulty of course is we both know your dragon is a figment. In relation to God, you might think that of God but I don't hold that view at all.  The comparison simply does not hold water. 

I in real life do pray to God. I also worship God. I have a book - which I understand through sound study and research and logical thinking to be God's words. I have an entire worldview - a comprehensive worldview tied up with God.  This is very different to a dragon you have intentionally invented to try and prove God is in the same league. It really is comparing apples with oranges. 

I understand your sentiment - don't misunderstand me. I often use similar thoughts of argument but in the reverse direction. And with other religions. But to be perfectly honest, the way to make someone doubt the existence of God is much more complex than telling me you have dragon in your garage and that he is preventing you from murdering people, raping people, and from being gay. 

God does not prevent me from murdering people. He does not prevent me from raping people. He does not prevent me from being gay. I do say that but for my belief in God I could do all of those things. I do say that but for this morality that flows from God and his theology, that I would just live for myself.  The fact is - if God does not exist - then there are no eternal implications for me. And there are no historical ones either save for whatever this world throws at me. 

If God does not exist - then truth is whatever I want it to be.  Facts might remain facts. But facts then just become a description of life that I can agree with or try and change if I wanted too.  

God has provided the world with a correct way to live. If we don't choose to live that way - then that inevitably means we will stuff up.

If we disregard his laws to not kill people - then life would be very messy. Yet if God did not exist, what is the reason not to kill?

Does it not become the survival of the fittest?

Don't I at that stage get to determine who lives and who dies?

Of course there are always going to be bigger and stronger people than me.  I naturally am going to make sure I don't annoy them.  To make people stop believing in God, you need to dig much deeper than you are.  This is because God is real. 

By “common sense” I meant common belief. Go back and look at the context. It’s  #66. 

I’m not arguing about the five senses. It’s almost as if you’re trying to misconstrue my positions. I’m not going to argue against a premise you falsely assumed. 

Why is being gay a problem? 

I was using it comedically. Plus Abrahamic religions have traditionally had a problem with it. 

This is what you were taught.  We can be taught things in error.  Einstein would attest to that. Yet, somethings we are taught are correct.

And how do we find out they’re correct? Can you give me something correct that I wouldn’t agree with you on?

Your dragon is a matter for you. If you choose to listen to this dragon, what is it to do with me. I suspect you listen to lots of things I might think are silly. Does that make all of them magical and superstitious? You might listen to music. I think that is a waste of time unless it is by someone who is proficient at it.

It seems to me you’re downplaying psychosis. 

You might like to listen to Donald Trump.  I have never met him. I have only seen him on videos. He seems pretty out there. Perhaps he is simply a fake persona. Should I choose to believe he is fake?

Much about him as a politician I would say is fake, unless he bizarrely changed many of his positions as a 70-80 year old. 

I could come to your garage and ask you to show me your dragon.  Are you the only one to be able to see it? 

He’s invisible. But he’s still 100% there. 

I am sticking to context.   You are suggesting to me that your dragon in your garage is just as real for you as God is to me. I disagree. For instance - we both know you are producing this figment of imagination as a tool to demonstrate that god is also just imagination. The difficulty of course is we both know your dragon is a figment. In relation to God, you might think that of God but I don't hold that view at all.  The comparison simply does not hold water. 

For the sake of argument, I whole heartedly believe the dragon is real. 

I in real life do pray to God. I also worship God. I have a book - which I understand through sound study and research and logical thinking to be God's words. I have an entire worldview - a comprehensive worldview tied up with God.  This is very different to a dragon you have intentionally invented to try and prove God is in the same league. It really is comparing apples with oranges. 

If you’re an atheist against the belief of my dragon, would that mean you’re agnostic with other religions? For example Hinduism is much older than Christianity with a rich culture. 

I understand your sentiment - don't misunderstand me. I often use similar thoughts of argument but in the reverse direction. And with other religions. But to be perfectly honest, the way to make someone doubt the existence of God is much more complex than telling me you have dragon in your garage and that he is preventing you from murdering people, raping people, and from being gay. 

God does not prevent me from murdering people. He does not prevent me from raping people. He does not prevent me from being gay. I do say that but for my belief in God I could do all of those things. I do say that but for this morality that flows from God and his theology, that I would just live for myself.  The fact is - if God does not exist - then there are no eternal implications for me. And there are no historical ones either save for whatever this world throws at me. 

Many people from many religions use that argumentation against atheists. Personally I find it childish. We’re a species that’s about 300,000 years old. We evolved to do good. How we interpret good is a different matter. Religion was a way for an uneducated community to be on the same page, especially at scale. But now societies have educated populaces with laws that are easily enforceable compared to a few thousand years ago. 

If God does not exist - then truth is whatever I want it to be.  Facts might remain facts. But facts then just become a description of life that I can agree with or try and change if I wanted too.  

That’s the spirit. if It was the truth that you didn’t know a particular skill, but now you do, then all the power to you. 

God has provided the world with a correct way to live. If we don't choose to live that way - then that inevitably means we will stuff up.

Did the christian God give other religions instructions on how to live too? Many of those instruction I bet you would disagree with. Even within Christianity. 

If we disregard his laws to not kill people - then life would be very messy. Yet if God did not exist, what is the reason not to kill?

firstly, most people don’t kill purely indiscriminately. Secondly, we are community oriented. There are countless repercussions, not just to yourself, but to your loved ones. 

Does it not become the survival of the fittest?

Survival of the fittest means the best to adapt. Again, humans adapted to be community oriented, that’s how we best survived. 

Don't I at that stage get to determine who lives and who dies?

At what cost?

Of course there are always going to be bigger and stronger people than me.  I naturally am going to make sure I don't annoy them.  To make people stop believing in God, you need to dig much deeper than you are.  This is because God is real. 

Societies exist regardless of your god.

Not true. That a misconstruing of the Abrahamic religions position. I see you humor. I don't agree. Abrahamic religions are in favor of family and marriage. The purpose of marriage for the Abrahamic religions is primarily to raise children.  The purpose of sex primarily is to procreate. Of course it is not the only reason - but is the primary reason. (As it is in the animal world) Anything out of sync with this primary purpose is an aberration - and that is the point.  Not gayness, anymore than it is about adultery, as it is about pre marital sex, as it is about pornography, as it is about prostitution. Religions are not anti-gay. They are pro family. Anything that diminishes this is the problem. 

IDK.  I am sure you would agree that 2 + 2 = 4.  But I am confident too that you would deny that order and logic which math is built upon presumes a God of order.  Whereas no god means no order or logic - just randomness, and irrationality.

I reckon you will need to explain what you mean there. 

But is he real?

That is convenient. How does he talk to you? 

For the sake of argument, I whole heartedly believe the dragon is real. 

Why do you believe it is real?

Yes, I am atheist about your dragon.  I am also atheist with other religions. And I am atheist about atheists. Does that help? Christianity in one sense began 2000 years ago at Pentecost. But in a much more realer sense it began before the creation of the Earth.  I personally don't see Pentecost as more than the birth of the church in a Gentile sense. For me the church existed in the OT and prior to Noah. Way back in the Garden of Eden - and even before that in the mind of Christ. 

But coming back to the question of other religions. I am exclusively Christian. 

I don't agree. I actually not arguing for God in this situation. I am arguing for how I would be without God.  If God does not exist - I make my own rules. I disagree that we evolved to do good. If we evolved - it was to survive. Good is too relative to be something people would evolve to do. It is importing onto the human something which is moral. That is nonsense.  A complete borrowing from someone else's worldview. 

It is only the extension of what you considered childish a moment ago.. 

God gave humanity an instruction. Humanity did not like it. So the answer is - No

Tell that to the Azteks. And every culture which has murdered millions of its people in sacrifices.  Tell that to the aborted foetuses every year.

My point exactly. Community orientated only if it will make you survive longer. But not otherwise.

I don't understand what you mean. 

Every culture in the history of humanity acknowledges God. God is an inescapable concept. 

1. Can you prove God is more than just a concept? The known universe is about 14 billion years old, we’ve existed for a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of that time. The universe is also really big. 99.99999999…% is uninhabitable to humans. Our planet is a speck of blue in a near empty void. But of course you would probably say that’s evidence for God. Imagine a universe without order (order is relative to the organism/environment btw) and without life. Would anyone be debating about whether there’s a god? No, because there’s no one to conceptualise it. Do you understand what I’m getting at?

2. Many animals consciously do math. Math in itself is nothing special. Humans have just greatly expanded upon it with the help of our vocal range that we evolved, which helped us communicate more complex ideas.

When speaking about truth, I would think hearing voices in your head isn’t that reliable. It’s also potentially dangerous for those who celebrate it, especially with religious conviction. There are millions of people who think the Abrahamic god speaks to them.

That is convenient. How does he talk to you? 

I’d say it’s par for the course. he speaks to me with his presents and sometimes I hear him say things.

There’s other things you could ask such as if he gives off a thermal signature, or would you see his footprints if you placed flour down, etc. 

For the sake of argument, I whole heartedly believe the dragon is real. 

Why do you believe it is real?

I feel his presents in everything and he talks to me. 

Yes, I am atheist about your dragon.  I am also atheist with other religions. And I am atheist about atheists. Does that help? Christianity in one sense began 2000 years ago at Pentecost. But in a much more realer sense it began before the creation of the Earth.  I personally don't see Pentecost as more than the birth of the church in a Gentile sense. For me the church existed in the OT and prior to Noah. Way back in the Garden of Eden - and even before that in the mind of Christ. 

But coming back to the question of other religions. I am exclusively Christian. 

I don't agree. I actually not arguing for God in this situation. I am arguing for how I would be without God.  If God does not exist - I make my own rules. I disagree that we evolved to do good. If we evolved - it was to survive. Good is too relative to be something people would evolve to do. It is importing onto the human something which is moral. That is nonsense.  A complete borrowing from someone else's worldview. 

Ethics is how humans function. We’re a social species with standards. This is how we’ve survived. This how all social creatures survive. Yes, animals have moral considerations too — the ability to distinguish between good and bad, right and wrong.

which worldview exactly? I say all religions have borrowed from human nature to one existent or another.

Tell that to the Azteks. And every culture which has murdered millions of its people in sacrifices.  Tell that to the aborted foetuses every year.

1. yes, ritual blood sacrifices are bad. But they’re not purely indiscriminate. They think their doing good to appease their gods. 

2. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%205%3A16-28&version=NRSV

My point exactly. Community orientated only if it will make you survive longer. But not otherwise.

Well if there’s danger, then yeah sure. But it’s more complicated than that. What’s your point?

I don't understand what you mean. 

First, why would want to choose who lives and who dies? Why are you in that position in the first place?

Every culture in the history of humanity acknowledges God. God is an inescapable concept. 

How so? 

To some tribes religion itself wasn’t even a concept until we asked.

I used the word primarily didn't I? Not only.   

Gay couples do adopt children don't they?

There is no blind hatred of anything but sin in the bible by God and his people.

There is also lots of blind hatred towards God and his people by sinners in the bible.

Christian's don't hate gays. There will be gays in heaven.  Yet no Gay will get there simply because he is gay. And no straight person will get there because they are straight.

Take a look outside of your window and observe the world. That is excellent evidence for proof of God. Take a look in your mirror. That too is proof. Look at all of the books on your bookshelf.  Again proof for God.  Everything is proof for God. God is not just a concept.  If God was just a concept, then nothing else would exist - and this conversation would not be happening. You are the one who needs proof for God, not me. I have no clue what evidence you would accept. I reckon your standard for the evidence for God is higher than proof for anything else. 

I'm not sure what your point is here.  Animals understand the concept of God. Humans are different from the animals. Again - more evidence that God created humanity and the animals. 

I don't listen to voices inside my head. If I did, then I would go to the shrink and get some medication.  Millions of people think lots of things. So what? Democracy does not make something any more true than it makes it false. 

Well - so that must mean your dragon is real - even more real than God.  Oh wait - everything exists because God does. 

For the sake of argument, I whole heartedly believe the dragon is real. 

Why do you believe it is real?

I feel his presents in everything and he talks to me. 

Yes, I am atheist about your dragon.  I am also atheist with other religions. And I am atheist about atheists. Does that help? Christianity in one sense began 2000 years ago at Pentecost. But in a much more realer sense it began before the creation of the Earth.  I personally don't see Pentecost as more than the birth of the church in a Gentile sense. For me the church existed in the OT and prior to Noah. Way back in the Garden of Eden - and even before that in the mind of Christ. 

But coming back to the question of other religions. I am exclusively Christian. 

I must admit that this little delusion you have of a dragon is unhelpful.  You are intentionally making something up - and attempting then to compare apples with oranges. It does not assist at all. 

And your point is ….

I am sure you would. But atheism MUST borrow from other worldviews - because it is not a worldview. Secular Humanism also borrows from other worldviews - because if secular humanism is true - then there is nothing but randomness and chaos. 

Seriously. 

Do you want to have a proper discussion or not? 

I used the word primarily didn't I? Not only.   

That was said about marriage? That goes to my point. 

Gay couples do adopt children don't they?

In spite of the Christian community. 

There is no blind hatred of anything but sin in the bible by God and his people.

And being gay is a sin, isn’t it?

There is also lots of blind hatred towards God and his people by sinners in the bible.

Blind hatred? God tells his followers to kill gays. Are you really trying to pull the victim card?

Christian's don't hate gays. There will be gays in heaven.  Yet no Gay will get there simply because he is gay. And no straight person will get there because they are straight.

The wonders of modernity. 

Take a look outside of your window and observe the world. That is excellent evidence for proof of God. Take a look in your mirror. That too is proof. Look at all of the books on your bookshelf.  Again proof for God.  Everything is proof for God. God is not just a concept.  If God was just a concept, then nothing else would exist - and this conversation would not be happening. You are the one who needs proof for God, not me. I have no clue what evidence you would accept. I reckon your standard for the evidence for God is higher than proof for anything else. 

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. None what you’ve said comes close other than what you feel. 

I'm not sure what your point is here.  Animals understand the concept of God. Humans are different from the animals. Again - more evidence that God created humanity and the animals. 

How is math and God linked? Don’t just tell me how you feel.

I don't listen to voices inside my head. If I did, then I would go to the shrink and get some medication.  Millions of people think lots of things. So what? Democracy does not make something any more true than it makes it false. 

It’s nice you would get help, but If you came across a Christian ceremony with someone speaking in tongue, it seems to me you would be indifferent.

What? I really believe a dragons in my garage! He also says the Christian god is a false god. I told him you wouldn’t like that but he insisted. 

And your point is ….

Within the context of social creatures, survival in an evolutionary lens is more complicated than just living. It’s figuring out how to get along with others to increase chances of reproducing. 

I am sure you would. But atheism MUST borrow from other worldviews - because it is not a worldview. Secular Humanism also borrows from other worldviews - because if secular humanism is true - then there is nothing but randomness and chaos. 

You’re right, atheism isn’t a worldview by itself, other than describing ones position on the existence of gods. So stop treating it more than it is. Atheism shouldn’t even need to exist. 

As for humanism or “secular humanism” as you call it, what worldviews does it borrow from? The Enlightenment? Then yeah, sure. 

Seriously. 

Do you want to have a proper discussion or not? 

What’s the problem? 

The example in the topic started is based on two existing religions so the short answer is yes. But atheists think theists are stupid so what difference does the religion make. 

LOL @ the way you twist words.  I was not playing a victim card. I was expressing the point that the bible contains lots of information and it is a two way street. Many believers were killed by non-believers and vica versa. You can't say - it's all filled with hate and just leave it there. So much nonsense. It is the same with gays.  Yes, the Bible considers homosexuality a sin. Yet it is not the unforgiveable sin. It also considers adultery a sin but not the unforgiveable sin.  Christians don't want people to steal or to kill or do anything that God says is sinful.  God gives us our definition of sin - not democracy or the latest political policies or the latest psychobabble. 

That is where you have it backwards. I am not making an extraordinary claim.  I am making a simple - common sense one.  It's got nothing to do with my feelings. 

Isn't it obvious?  Math requires logic and principles which are ABSOLUTE and consistent.  Without God, those things cannot happen for a myriad of reasons.  Take the natural extensions of post modernism the great move away from consistency and absolutes and reality. Anything is ok- morals, science, theology, sociology, law, now everything is fluid.  Math is going the way of the dodo. Why? Because it is being led down the path by nominalists. 

I don't believe people speak in tongues in our culture or our time. So you are incorrect.  I wouldn't get help for myself I heard others in a church service speaking nonsense.  

Whatever? I don't see the point of discussing with you the reality of something of which you don't believe and are doing so for the sake of the argument. It is apples and oranges. Why don't you try to convince me of something you do believe in? Like the Solomon Islands. And do it without referring to either your testimony or someone elses.

so it is not to evolve to do good - then thanks for agreeing it is about survival.

Well atheism doesn't exist except as a concept.  Hmmm!!

The problem is - you keep going around in circles. 

Do you think homosexuality is a choice? 

That is where you have it backwards. I am not making an extraordinary claim.  I am making a simple - common sense one.  It's got nothing to do with my feelings. 

You told me to observe the world. The world (all of known existence) functions independent of any intervention from a god.

How are you concluding there’s a god (specifically the Christian god) from just looking at the world? 

Math is as absolute as a person solving a specific problem (that we perceive) with specific math (that we formulate).

Dare I say, math is in fact socially constructed. Saying “math is absolute” is arbitrary.

Is math that solves a problem more efficiently, more absolute than prior math? I assume you’re synonymising absolute with perfect.

Does that mean at times God isn’t perfect? That’s what you’re doing right, equating God with math? 

I don't believe people speak in tongues in our culture or our time. So you are incorrect.  I wouldn't get help for myself I heard others in a church service speaking nonsense.  

She was one of Trump’s faith advisers in The White House.

https://youtu.be/I4daeEacIVI

If my dragon and your god are apples and oranges (fruit/religion) then what would you consider the Solomon Islands/reality?

No but seriously what’s wrong with testimony? I’m not trying to limit your thoughts on the matter. I’m evaluating them. If you feel ideologically threatened, don’t engage. Although it’s healthy to do so. 

so it is not to evolve to do good - then thanks for agreeing it is about survival.

And how do we survive as a social species? By doing good by one another. It fosters stability. 

Well atheism doesn't exist except as a concept.  Hmmm!!

Atheism is the lack of belief in gods. So yeah. 

The problem is - you keep going around in circles. 

I keep going around in circles? How so? 

Mr circular.

GODS don't define sin.

People define sin and attribute their definition to their particular GOD.

And gay is simply a modus operandi.

And marriage is simply associated bunkum.

And one takes it all as seriously as one is conditioned to take it.

Or that I don't have sufficient proof to prove God. 

Do you think sin is a choice or not? 

Yes, I did because God is not found by looking into the mysteries of extraordinary things. That is the stuff of magic and superstition.

There is a story of a guy called Naaman in the OT. He was sick from a disease and when he went to a prophet of God to be healed. The prophet told him to go and bath in the muddy old Jordan.  This mighty warrior from another place thought God would have him do something amazing. He wanted something special and extraordinary. Yet God gave him the mundane to do.  God does not need to reveal himself in the extraordinary because everything including most commonly is the ordinary.  God does not need to prove who he is by doing wonderful amazing things. He has no need to bignote himself. He is not worried about himself. He is not going through an identity crisis. He provides the ordinary things in life for all of us.  Romans 1 tells us this truth.  The creation around us is ample evidence for God's existence. So ample that no one is ever going to be able to say "I didn't know".  It is the ignorant who refuse to see what is right there before their eyes. Another word for ignorant is pride. 

Wow! your mind finds it hard to stay on one subject. 

I never said Math was perfect. Nor did I say that math reflects God's image.

I indicated that math is based on some assumptions-  like consistency and principles.  Without such math is pointless or meaningless. 

Humanity is trending away from absolutes and principles since this is more consistent with its own worldview.  Yet math requires consistency - hence the requirement of God.

My point is try arguing for something you actually believe in and prove it's existence. You have been starting with a false assumption. One that God does not exist - and that I don't really believe in God but are just pretending.  Or that I don't have sufficient proof to prove God. Hence your figment of delusion - a dragon

Well good. I think testimony is ok for evidence. Most atheists would never agree. Take Stephen for instance and others too. 

I am not feeling threatened - why would you think that? I just don't want to waste time discussing something that you are not taking seriously.  Your dragon is evidence you are not taking it seriously. 

No, I don't agree.  Good can foster stability - but there is no logical reason for that. And no reason why people would evolve that way. Survival is a much stronger reason to do bad. 

 Hence the proverb kill or be killed. Survival of the strongest. fight or flee.  

Do you think sin is a choice or not? 

Do you think God made us in his Image? God’s kinda gay dude. 

Yes, I did because God is not found by looking into the mysteries of extraordinary things. That is the stuff of magic and superstition.

Nonsensical answer. Extraordinary isn’t a magical or superstitious term, unlike some other words you warship. 

It is the ignorant who refuse to see what is right there before their eyes. Another word for ignorant is pride. 

I’m sure you can find a better word than ignorant. Ignorant just means having a lack of knowledge. There have been millions upon millions of people throughout history who didn’t know anything about a Christian god. Are they all in hell now because of their pride or whatever? What about fetuses, where do they go?

Wow! your mind finds it hard to stay on one subject. 

I’m just asking questions. I’m interested in the answers you give. 

I never said Math was perfect. Nor did I say that math reflects God's image.

Though you did say math is absolute (with logic and principles) and without God those things cannot happen.

Kind of nonsensical, but that’s what you said.

I indicated that math is based on some assumptions-  like consistency and principles.  Without such math is pointless or meaningless. 

I know you’re trying to downplay what you’ve perviously said.

Here’s the original:

The Dagon in my Garage

by Carl Sagan 

http://people.whitman.edu/~herbrawt/classes/110/Sagan.pdf

Well good. I think testimony is ok for evidence. Most atheists would never agree. Take Stephen for instance and others too. 

But is testimony of a religious experience sufficient enough to say the Christian god definitively exists? How do you know it’s not something else like some other god or your mind playing tricks on you? Throughout history there have been people of strong faith in all sorts of religions. 

I am not feeling threatened - why would you think that? I just don't want to waste time discussing something that you are not taking seriously.  Your dragon is evidence you are not taking it seriously. 

Please read the Link up above ^

No, I don't agree.  Good can foster stability - but there is no logical reason for that. And no reason why people would evolve that way. Survival is a much stronger reason to do bad. 

Why do you feel that way?

 Hence the proverb kill or be killed. Survival of the strongest. fight or flee.  

what does “kill or be killed” mean exactly? It’s more like kill or die. That’s what mammals and many other organisms do for nutrients. 

“survival of the strongest” means survival of the best to adapt to ones environment to pass on genetic data. It’s not necessarily about brutishness.

Fight or flight is a description of how many animals react when they feel threatened. Pretty straight forward. 

None of these are good reasons why cooperation is not in our best interest.  

So you don't have an answer? Ok.  Yes, Humanity is made in the image and likeness of God. 

It's not nonsensical. You suggested originally that I was asserting extraordinary claims - therefore I needed to produce extraordinary evidence. I said that was nonsense since It misunderstands the reality of God.  I think searching for miracles and magic and supernatural things in relation to God is superstitious mumbo jumbo. 

God is all powerful and can do whatever he pleases, does not mean he is going to perform for us like a puppet when we call.  God has created this world we live in - and for me and the Scriptures that is where he is meeting with us.  If we cannot see God in the creation we are ignorant. 

I did. It was pride. A better word is selfish. An even better word is idolatry. And an even better word is sinful.  Yes, you are right. There are millions of people in history who died not knowing the God of the universe.  They died not knowing the God who controls and plans history.  God is the author of life. If people are in Hell then that is because they refused to acknowledge the creator of this world. A choice they freely made and nobody took from them. 

Do fetuses go to Hell? Excellent question. Personally, I don't have an answer - save and except, that I believe that God saves everyone through Jesus. Yet thankfully, I am not God. What God does in his own way is a matter for him.  I don't have an issue with that because I believe fully that everything God does is good and just.  It is an assumption. or an axiom. 

No that is an unfair characterization of my point. I took issue with you suggesting that math was perfect. I never said that. God is perfect. I do not think that therefore everything else is perfect.  I said math is based on reason and logic.

Humanity evolved not through reason or logic but haphazardly and without foresight or reason and logic. It survived according to most by the randomness attached within the survival of the fittest. Natural Selection. Not a foresight. Still random - because there is no brain behind or force behind evolution - just the desire to continue living. 

Yes, I have read that before. A few years ago - but it is preaching to the converted.  And is flawed in many ways.

Because that is the natural extension of the logic of natural selection and evolution. There is no mind behind evolution. It is random - it is survival that counts - not doing good. 

Cooperation has benefits but competition has more.  Cooperation is not the opposite of competition by the way.  The opposite of cooperation is non-cooperation.  The opposite of competition is monopoly.  Cooperation is really a form of submission. 

Non-competition means no options or no choices.  I prefer competition and dislike cooperation unless I am the one who is in control. 

But atheists think theists are stupid