Tiki Torches.

Author: Greyparrot

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#91
Double_R
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@Fruit_Inspector
That didn't answer my question. CRT defines the terms "race" and "racism" in a very particular way. I'm asking how your definition of "race" and "racism" is different than how those terms would be defined in CRT. Saying that CRT goes "deeper" only shows me you are defining and using the terms in the same exact way, just with different levels of scrutiny in terms of identifying "racism" in society.
There are two basic types of racism; individualized racism which is about the individuals thoughts and/or feelings towards members of another race, and systemic racism which is about how the system discriminates against minorities. CRT talks mostly about the latter, I tend to use the term to describe the former. To my knowledge there is no difference in the way I’m using the terms vs CRT, it’s just a matter of context.

Does that answer your question?

#92
cristo71
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@Double_R
We’re not talking about math or science. Race is a complex and controversial issue and it’s not going anywhere. Your child will be exposed to it and will eventually develop their own opinions on the matter which will be influenced by what they consume and who they talk to. If you’re not expecting and prepared to have those conversations with your child then that’s your failure.
You underestimate the scope of the movement. I could link a few sources which show how identity politics has affected the study of mathematics. You speak as though parents should be ok with controversial ideologies being taught to their children. You act as if you would be ok with, say, pro life or intelligent design ideology being taught in schools, but I don’t buy it, and other parents shouldn’t, either.

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#93
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@cristo71
I think his reference point is that it's not controversial to state that America is a fundamentally racist nation.
#94
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@cristo71
You act as if you would be ok with, say, pro life or intelligent design ideology being taught in schools, but I don’t buy it, and other parents shouldn’t, either.
Intelligent design is pure quackery, and pro life is a purely political position. Racism and race relations is a part of life we will all have to navigate through. These are not the same thing.

I also said I was not ok with wokeness of the Robin Deangelo style being taught to my children, so I have no idea what image of my position you’ve conjured up in your head, but it’s not one I’ve expressed. I don’t even agree with many of her basic positions and find her book full of nonsense. What I’m criticizing on this thread is the disproportionate role all of this is having on our politics compared to the reality. It’s emotion over facts and reason, plain and simple.
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#95
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@Double_R
I also said I was not ok with wokeness of the Robin Deangelo style being taught to my children

I wasn't aware the NEA banned Robin DeAngelo.
#96
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@Double_R
You think it was less emotions based and more reason based for McAuliffe to equate Youngkin with Trump and declare that parents don’t really need a say in the education of their children?

#97
Fruit_Inspector
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@Double_R
There are two basic types of racism; individualized racism which is about the individuals thoughts and/or feelings towards members of another race, and systemic racism which is about how the system discriminates against minorities. CRT talks mostly about the latter, I tend to use the term to describe the former. To my knowledge there is no difference in the way I’m using the terms vs CRT, it’s just a matter of context.

Does that answer your question?
Surprisingly, yes.

Now here is where the semantics game will be relevant. The NEA is the largest teacher union in the country. For a number of years now, they have been pushing a racial justice initiative, including the promotion and dissemination of materials for educators. This includes materials to use in the classroom with public school students. Here is some examples of what is in that material:

These above points are the practical application of Critical Race Theory. Some call it Critical Praxis or Critical Pedagogy. The language and the ideology are both present. So even if teachers are not teaching the entirety of CRT, they are using CRT as a framework to engage students in Critical Pedagogy. Unless you believe that the materials being promoted and dispersed by the NEA are not being used at all in K-12 classrooms, this is what is being done in public schools. And this use of CRT as a framework for Critical Pedagogy is what parents are actually against.


#98
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@cristo71
You think it was less emotions based and more reason based for McAuliffe to equate Youngkin with Trump and declare that parents don’t really need a say in the education of their children?
The “parents don’t have a say in their kids education” was a stupid line that the political right ran with. It had zero real world application as there was no actual change to the curriculum either candidate would/will implement except for Youngkin banning a course no school in Virginia is even teaching. That is an example to emotion based voting.

What McAuliffe tried was to tap into the emotions of the left by making it about Trump which had little effect. It turns out the left isn’t as susceptible to that kind of nonsense, so the republican won.
#99
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@Double_R
The left isn’t as susceptible to emotional appeals, so they voted for Youngkin?
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#100
Greyparrot
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@Double_R
The “parents don’t have a say in their kids education” was a stupid line that the political right ran with

“I don’t think parents should be telling schools what they should teach.”

That is the direct quote. It's not a dogwhistle, nor some fantasy idea the radical right created out of whole cloth.

It is a direct quote. Which was met with thunderous applause from the 37 percenters at his rally.

#101
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@Fruit_Inspector
So even if teachers are not teaching the entirety of CRT, they are using CRT as a framework to engage students in Critical Pedagogy. Unless you believe that the materials being promoted and dispersed by the NEA are not being used at all in K-12 classrooms…
Anecdotes aside, correct. The NEA is not in charge of anything, they do not set the curriculum and they do not dictate what any teacher teaches nor can they hold any teacher accountable in any way. They’re essentially an activist group fighting for what they want.

But what you are touching upon is the point here. This has devolved into a game of semantics, a game which begins with a woeful misunderstanding of what “teaching critical race theory” actually means.

The reality is that the ideas from which critical race theory stems are prevalent within educators nationwide and what people really want isn’t about banning the curriculum from being taught, but banning the ideas from being discussed or even acknowledged anywhere around their children. In other words, they don’t want race to be discussed at all.

The irony of all this mind boggling. The most basic idea of CRT is that race is the most prevalent source of conflict within our society. The fact that a man rode the idea of not talking about race all the way to the VA governorship proves the central premise of the thing they all voted not to talk about. It’s absurd.
#102
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@cristo71
The left isn’t as susceptible to emotional appeals, so they voted for Youngkin?
What?
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#103
Greyparrot
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@Double_R
Why hasn't the  NEA banned CRT?
#104
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@Greyparrot
“I don’t think parents should be telling schools what they should teach.”

That is the direct quote. It's not a dogwhistle, nor some fantasy idea the radical right created out of whole cloth. 
And then I came it a stupid line. What part of what I said are you under the impression you are refuting?

But to dig into this a bit more, I first off ask why this line even mattered? Pretty much every voter who voted for Youngkin could repeat this line verbatim. I mean seriously, since when did parents say in their child’s education become such a hot topic? The answer seems  simple; when parents got wind of the idea that teachers had opinions on race, and the parents didn’t like them. That’s what this is all about, and it’s amazing to watch.

I don’t know what was meant by the person who said it,  but listening with my left wing ear, it seems clear to me that the point was about expertise. Educators do this for a living, perhaps we should let them figure out how all this works. It’s a perfectly reasonable point, but of course the right was on their purge CRT rage so it’s not like they would have ever comprehended that idea. Not to mention the fact that the right rejects the very idea of expertise itself so it’s not likely it would have mattered anyway.
#105
cristo71
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@Double_R
“The left isn’t as susceptible to emotional appeals, so they voted for Youngkin?”

What?
I’m restating what you said in order to highlight to you the internal contradiction in your claim.

You said this:

What McAuliffe tried was to tap into the emotions of the left by making it about Trump which had little effect. It turns out the left isn’t as susceptible to that kind of nonsense, so the republican won.
To restate  your claim yet another way:

“The left isn’t as susceptible to that kind of nonsense”… so, they went with the Republican kind of nonsense instead?
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#106
Greyparrot
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@Double_R
And then I came it a stupid line. What part of what I said are you under the impression you are refuting?
The part where his supporters applauded the idea.

I don’t know what was meant by the person who said it,  but listening with my left wing ear, it seems clear to me that the point was about expertise.
You have no idea how lobbies work, do you? Dear child.

Educators do this for a living, perhaps we should let them figure out how all this works
Or we could hold them accountable instead of inviting New York political hacks like Randi Weingarten to yell at the peons for daring to do so.
What most administrators do for a living is to create ways to expand more funding. CRT does exactly that.

How dare parents demand that schools stop teaching all that extra crap and focus on core academics? Teachers could lose job positions and money! 

Right now there are about 3 administrative positions for every teacher all because parents trusted teachers to "figure it all out" while core academics like math and science took a back seat. Teacher's Unions shouldn't have that much power and the corruption that goes along with it. Corruption that apparently goes all the way up to the FBI.

It's time to break that monopoly apart for the good of the children.

#107
Fruit_Inspector
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@Double_R
The NEA is not in charge of anything, they do not set the curriculum and they do not dictate what any teacher teaches nor can they hold any teacher accountable in any way.
This statement is true, but it does not actually address the point. The question is not whether the NEA controls the curriculum. Let me ask the question that is related to the point before we just skip past this:

Do you that the racial justice materials being promoted and distributed by the NEA are being used in any public K-12 schools?
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#108
Greyparrot
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@Double_R
The answer seems  simple; when parents got wind of the idea that teachers had opinions on race, and the parents didn’t like them. 
Especially when that gaseous "wind" you refer to happens to be your own child. That makes things incredibly clear and simple.
#109
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@cristo71
To restate  your claim yet another way:

“The left isn’t as susceptible to that kind of nonsense”… so, they went with the Republican kind of nonsense instead?
No, left leaning voters stayed home. Turnout surged statewide thanks to democrats who actually care about democracy making voting more accessible, but if you look at where turnout surged it was much higher in rural areas and somewhat in the suburbs.
#110
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@Fruit_Inspector
Do you that the racial justice materials being promoted and distributed by the NEA are being used in any public K-12 schools?
96% of educators surveyed said CRT was not being taught in their districts, so that’s a no.

Now if you want to point to the 4% as validation for your position then go for it. I’m looking at this from the standpoint of what it says about VA and our society more broadly that this is the issue they got all hung up on.
#111
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@Greyparrot
What part of what I said are you under the impression you are refuting?
The part where his supporters applauded the idea.
Except that that had nothing to do with my point so it’s clear you are not talking to me.
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#112
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@Double_R
You still have no answer for the parents who discovered CRT through their kids.

Youngkin had an answer.
#113
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@Double_R
Do you that the racial justice materials being promoted and distributed by the NEA are being used in any public K-12 schools?
96% of educators surveyed said CRT was not being taught in their districts, so that’s a no.
Have you ever considered a career in politics? Because you have mastered the art of not answering the question that was asked.

I did not ask what a survey said about what teachers said about whether CRT was being taught in their districts. That statistic is meaningless to me. Could you please answer the question that I actually asked:

Do you believe that the racial justice materials being promoted and distributed by the NEA are being used in any public K-12 schools?
#114
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@Fruit_Inspector
I’m not directly answering it because as I already implied, it’s a terribly worded question.

You’re asking me whether racial justice materials are being used in any public K-12 schools. So if one book in one class anywhere is Virginia has been used, the answer is yes. Not only could I have no way of knowing whether that is the case, but that’s a silly thing to even be discussing.

This isn’t a question of whether one class in one school is teaching it, it’s about whether this subject is prevalent enough within the school system to warrant the attention it got in the gubernatorial race. If that’s not what you’re talking about then I’m not interested in this conversation.
#115
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@Double_R
I’m not directly answering it because as I already implied, it’s a terribly worded question.
If it is a terribly worded question, it is only because of your terribly worded assertion. You said in post #34:
The issue front and center in these elections was about the teaching of critical race theory in schools, which the republican candidate declared he would ban.

Except that critical race theory isn’t being taught in one single school anywhere in the state and his opponent has never expressed support for teaching it. 

#116
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@Fruit_Inspector
Ok, let me rephrase… isn’t known to have been taught in one single school anywhere in the state.

Apologies for not making it clear enough to you that I’m not proclaiming to be omniscient.
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#117
Greyparrot
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@Double_R
 isn’t known to have been taught in one single school anywhere in the state.

So are you calling all those parents, even parents of color liars for what they claim they heard from their kids?

Every one of the parents, even the ones that voted for Biden, are part of a grand conspiracy to make your sacred party look bad?
#118
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@Double_R
Ok, let me rephrase… isn’t known to have been taught in one single school anywhere in the state.

Apologies for not making it clear enough to you that I’m not proclaiming to be omniscient.
That is still not worded well. Known by who? Do you mean it isn't known by you that CRT is being taught in one single school?

This would make your statement more accurately read:
"It isn't known by me that CRT is being taught in one single school in the state of Virginia."

Is this correct, or did you mean someone else?
#119
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@Fruit_Inspector
How about this; provide evidence of it being taught. Then we can discuss the claim further.

And when you dig up whatever you can find, keep in mind what I’ve emphasized repeatedly ever since; that this isn’t about anecdotes. I couldn’t care less of one class in one school is teaching it, I’m talking about the big picture. If you’re not then you’re engaging in a huge waste of time.
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#120
Greyparrot
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How about this; provide evidence of it being taught. Then we can discuss the claim further.
A father at a school board meeting blasted critical race theory (CRT) for teaching his daughter that "her mother is evil," in his words, and influencing students of different races "to hate each other."

Ian Rice, a parent in Caledonia, Michigan, spoke out against CRT, calling out the district's schools for "failing" students, including his own two children.

Rice added that the problem he has seen in schools that teach CRT lies with the educators themselves. He said the educators are not properly trained to teach such a theory. "Instead, they're using it as their own agenda to indoctrinate the kids to hate each other," he said.
Rice, who is black, also said the teaching of CRT has been especially harmful to his daughter. "Critical race theory is teaching that white people are bad. That's not true. That would teach my daughter that her mother is evil."
He also brought up an instance where a teacher pulled his daughter aside and told her, "Well, you're a minority, so you know better than to engage in certain things," which elicited gasps from the crowd around him.

He mentioned that his daughter was ridiculed after he initially brought up the matter to the school board.

That's more than enough evidence that kids are being affected by this shit.