If it could be proven, shown and demonstrated that a God exists, what implications would arise for you personally?
What would you want out of discovering this knowledge?
Hypothetically
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@EtrnlVw
If it could be proven, shown and demonstrated that a God exists, what implications would arise for you personally? What would you want out of discovering this knowledge?
Depends on what god it is I suppose, but, in general, I don't think it would have any great impact to my life.
I don't get the last question. I mean, what more (besides having a better understanding of existence) would someone want from this?
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@EtrnlVw
Since it is already proven to me to my satisfaction, the sure knowledge is one less dependence on faith, alone; one more piece added to the body of knowledge for everyone. And that's what I want; that everyone have the assurance I have without having to have empiric proof.
And Jane would have the assurance she seeks: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6833-it-is-presumptuous-to-think-you-know-anything-about-god
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@SkepticalOne
Depends on what god it is I suppose
Well my hypothetical does not suppose any particular God described, just that God does exist. Does God have to have a name described by any particular source? how about one you describe instead of someone describing God for you?
but, in general, I don't think it would have any great impact to my life.
But what are some of the implications you believe would transpire due to God's existence? it doesn't change your life yet I'm assuming you understand the difference between materialism/atheism and theism? if God exists, what are some things you believe follow that reality on your behalf?
Are you telling me that there is no difference to you between being the product of nature compared to being a product of an eternal God? your origins don't matter to you?
I don't get the last question. I mean, what more (besides having a better understanding of existence) would someone want from this?
That is an answer, what don't you get? having a better understanding of existence is a great follow up.
I just want to know what you would expect or want considering you now know God does exist. Maybe imagine you were an orphan all your life and now you have the knowledge and opportunity to know your true origins? what would be some things you would want to know, how would you feel? would you have any aspirations or questions?
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@949havoc
Since it is already proven to me to my satisfaction, the sure knowledge is one less dependence on faith
Is there anything in particular you ever asked yourself or wanted to know about God and or your soul that you may not have access to?
And Jane would have the assurance she seeks:
I've known Jane for quite awhile and she has made some pretty big leaps towards God. When I met her she was just about your average atheist, she struggles with assurance and confidence perhaps to a greater degree than others at times but she is a solid person and a great spiritual prospector. She has highs and lows like we all do and she will reach plenty more highs in her pursuit with God.
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@EtrnlVw
Is there anything in particular you ever asked yourself...
Yes, I have questions all the time. I seek answers by my own reading, studying, pondering and prayer, but only when I have formulated an idea on my own by the best research I can muster, and then in prayer, I seek a confirmation from God. Either the Holy Spirit fires my heart, and a glowing feeling, like a warm light expanding in me swells my breast and extends throughout my body, or I am left with a stupor of thought. I never ask God for an answer I have not already tried to develop on my own, for I believe God responds only to one who will put forth an effort to develop possible answers on their own. He rewards commitment to personal effort. He is not an information desk. This is the application of faith.
Concerning Jane, yes, I have observed the same and will continue to encourage her continued growth in the knowledge that God is, and loves us.
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@EtrnlVw
If it could be proven, shown and demonstrated that a God exists, what implications would arise for you personally?What would you want out of discovering this knowledge?
These are both not hypothetical for me but let's say they are...
I know originally, before knowing for sure that a god is real, that I wanted meaning in life. I felt a deep abyss as to the 'why' of my existence and it hurt me incredibly much that I was nothing more than a worthless random accident of meaningless events on a spinning ball in the middle of fucking nowhere.
Discovering god initially was about feeling special, like I had a reason to live. What I shortly realised is, it's not about that but instead realising nothing needs that 'reason', the reason we live is just to ride the wave and see how life turns out. I began to see annoying events that really disrupted my life as challenges and rougher tides for my surfing of that wave. My life became an adventure as opposed to a chore.
That's all I have to say on the matter really. For me, with god, life is an adventure with interesting changes. Before god was knowingly in my life for sure, life was a daily set of chores and everything chaotic was a disturbance.
Depends on what god it is I supposeWell my hypothetical does not suppose any particular God described, just that God does exist.
That's pretty vague and my following answers will reflect this.
but, in general, I don't think it would have any great impact to my life.But what are some of the implications you believe would transpire due to God's existence? it doesn't change your life yet I'm assuming you understand the difference between materialism/atheism and theism?
Sure. I understand atheism and materialism are not the same thing (so that part is hinting at a non sequitor), but, of course one cannot be an atheist if a god were demonstrated. So, I'd have a different label.
if God exists, what are some things you believe follow that reality on your behalf?
The existence of a god wouldn't change my identity or any core principles. I would still critically evaluate claims, I would still strive to know whats actually true, I would still hold to humanism. There would be no practical difference between SkepticalOne in a world where an undefined god exists and one where gods are a question mark.
Are you telling me that there is no difference to you between being the product of nature compared to being a product of an eternal God?
No. I'm saying the existence of something undefined may or may not make any difference. How is being a product of nature or being the product of something called god important?
For the record, you have added an attribute to "god" which is not a given - eternal. Is this part of your hypothetical...god is eternal?
If not, your hypothetical can include gods such as a very mortal little Johnny programmer who created humanity for a class project and has long since traveled into oblivion.
your origins don't matter to you?
Nope. How humanity came to be doesn't have any effect on my day to day life.
I would then know that pediatric cancer was because God flunked out of God School.
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@EtrnlVw
I think SkepticalOne, has a point with "Depends on what god it is"
It's a very 'wide definition, to many of us,
Various afterlife's and religious realities, vague, lacking clarity.
Though I think there's a clarion call in the emotions, desires of others.
Good or ill.
That's a bit of a contradiction for me to say.
Religions, beliefs, values, passion, right and wrong,
People often feel the pull and push of, yet have difficulty enunciating the particulars.
I'm rambling.
. . .
Hypothetically, if I found singular or various Gods, afterlives, or realities to exist,
I might attempt to look for a way to profit from it,
Whether in my own life, or in acquiring power at large.
When I say profit, I mean improve my situation, so to speak,
Which could be something such as finding inner peace,
. . Or power over my surroundings.
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@EtrnlVw
If it could be proven.
Then I would accept the existence of a GOD....Belief would obviously not be necessary.
Shown and demonstrated.
What might this hypothetical addendum to proof mean.....Makes it the hypothetical trick question.
What would you want.
From basic proof.....Nothing......Because I would gain nothing, other than a slight modification in stored data.......A GOD might exist......A GOD does exist.
Of course, this might all depend on the ensuing show and demonstration catch.
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@EtrnlVw
I sometimes practice my one question that i have if i met one of these god things.
I'd just keep repeating.
What religious group should i be in ?
God , God.
Which group do i join.
It has to be the only thing you need to know from god.
It's not like one would just join any old religious group if god didn't tell him.
Once the god thing that I'm happy with tells me what group to be in, i am one of them.
Insta join.
BECAUSEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. Believing in god has something to do with being in a religious group.
I'm sure of it.
I will get to the bottom of it.
Etrnl .
Why is this?.
You've caught one haven't ya ?.
You have.
I want say nothing.
I'd like to cut him.
I mean.
Just Keep him ummmm, awake till i get there.
You know what i mean.
The Sun is a God.
Andddd I can prove the Sun is in fact real .
Unfortunately the Sun never got guys to write shlt down for him.
Thats the sign of a week god right there.
I mean , every god gets a group of guys to right shlt down . ( its common sense )
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@SkepticalOne
That's pretty vague and my following answers will reflect this.
Yes, it is vague in the sense we need not invoke religion to answer the supposed questions .....so I don't see what the issue is in terms of your reaction to the existence of a God. We aren't trying to determine any religion, we are just playing with the idea that God exists. I'm giving you freedom to play with the idea independent of dogma.
Sure. I understand atheism and materialism are not the same thing (so that part is hinting at a non sequitor), but, of course one cannot be an atheist if a god were demonstrated. So, I'd have a different label.
Right. And how would you feel about that, how would that effect you personally.
The existence of a god wouldn't change my identity or any core principles.
That's cool, I wouldn't expect it would, though we could argue that it may change your identity from being identified as an atheist. I don't see really see it altering your core principles but I do see it having influence on how you view the world and your future I would hope.
I would still critically evaluate claims, I would still strive to know whats actually true, I would still hold to humanism.
We all do, or at least I do.
There would be no practical difference between SkepticalOne in a world where an undefined god exists and one where gods are a question mark.
That's what I'm trying to unearth, if this is actually true.
No. I'm saying the existence of something undefined may or may not make any difference. How is being a product of nature or being the product of something called god important?
I'm asking you. I know what the differences are and what the implications would be. I'm trying to get you to stretch your intellectual boundaries a bit. The dynamics of God existing as opposed to not existing are pretty significant. I'm trying to allow you the freedom of being creative here instead of me giving you all the details or implications.
For the record, you have added an attribute to "god" which is not a given - eternal. Is this part of your hypothetical...god is eternal?
If God is not eternal then God has to be the product of something, if God is the product of some other thing then God cannot be labeled God. Do you have any inherent issue with assuming God to be eternal?
If not, your hypothetical can include gods such as a very mortal little Johnny programmer who created humanity for a class project and has long since traveled into oblivion.
Lol.
Nope. How humanity came to be doesn't have any effect on my day to day life.
Sorry to hear that. Perhaps then you really don't understand the difference between materialism and theism and what the implications could mean. Maybe you're not the guy I was looking to expand on the topic with.
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@Lemming
I think SkepticalOne, has a point with "Depends on what god it is"
Perhaps to you it is, since you're idea of God has been primarily imposed on you instead of what God may entail being innate to you.
It's a very 'wide definition, to many of us,Various afterlife's and religious realities, vague, lacking clarity.
If I wanted to impose religion on you I would have clarified the topic, that is not my intentions. My intention is to give you freedom of thought and expression as one observing something from a clean slate.
Though I think there's a clarion call in the emotions, desires of others.Good or ill.That's a bit of a contradiction for me to say.Religions, beliefs, values, passion, right and wrong,People often feel the pull and push of, yet have difficulty enunciating the particulars.I'm rambling.
. . .
I'm giving you the option of thinking about God free from others ideals and dogma. I don't need to invoke religion to touch your imagination about your Maker. Your Maker exists independent of religion.
Hypothetically, if I found singular or various Gods, afterlives, or realities to exist,I might attempt to look for a way to profit from it,Whether in my own life, or in acquiring power at large.
Thank you for that, I would love you to begin to expand on this. Think of the possible implications of God existing and how that would impact you and your future.
When I say profit, I mean improve my situation, so to speak,Which could be something such as finding inner peace,. . Or power over my surroundings.
That is a great start. Can you expand on how this could be possible?
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@zedvictor4
Then I would accept the existence of a GOD....Belief would obviously not be necessary.
Fact and belief are not contrary to one another. If you accept the existence of God as fact, then you "believe" God exists. I'm not imposing any religious dogma or doctrines on you, we are just exploring your range of possible theoretical territory.
What might this hypothetical addendum to proof mean.....Makes it the hypothetical trick question.
No trick question Zed stop being paranoid. God exists.....what would that mean for you personally, what are the implications that arise for you personally?
From basic proof.....Nothing......Because I would gain nothing, other than a slight modification in stored data.......A GOD might exist......A GOD does exist.
I know you're not a creative individual, but for once can we get beyond your bleak, emotionless package of data and touch on your inner self awareness?
Of course, this might all depend on the ensuing show and demonstration catch.
What catch? I'm asking you what would ensue if it were clearly proven to you God exists. How would that knowledge effect you besides adding to your heap of conditioned data.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
I sometimes practice my one question that i have if i met one of these god things.I'd just keep repeating.What religious group should i be in ?
What if you had no religious group to pick from? what would your question then be?
God , God.Which group do i join.It has to be the only thing you need to know from god.
Really? are you sure about that? I know you're not that one-dimensional of a thinker even though you keep playing this game.
It's not like one would just join any old religious group if god didn't tell him.
If you knew God exists, what would that mean for you? what do you believe would follow that knowledge?
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@EtrnlVw
The dynamics of God existing as opposed to not existing are pretty significant. I'm trying to allow you the freedom of being creative here instead of me giving you all the details or implications.
I think you might need to consider why I am not responding as you think I should. The term "God" carries some baggage for you.
Assuming a god exists doesn't tell me if that being is the greatest imaginable or merely something preexisting or marginally more powerful than humans. It doesn't tell me if that being is mortal or immortal. It doesn't tell me if that being is THE creator or even a creator. It doesn't tell me if that being has anything to do with humanity at all.
That being said, the dynamics of god existing can be no more precise than the definition...and that is indeterminate.
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@EtrnlVw
Yep. But what is shown and demonstrated?....Might make all the difference to what might "ensue".
And there's a big difference between fact and belief.
Belief in a specific elaborated GOD, is acceptance without proof......Whereas fact is certain knowledge.
And it's all well and good jibing with criticisms, such as "not a creative individual" and "bleak and emotionless package".
But that really is just hollow jibing, from someone who cannot actually substantiate the fanciful products of their own "creative" imagination.
"So what would ensue if."
If A GOD (not necessarily the GOD of your imagination) were to exist, why do you presume that things would instantly change, other than the slight modification of my stored data, to include a certain fact.
I'm not suddenly going to start singing and dancing and shouting hallelujah....Unless this revealed GOD, forcefully demands it.
And that would obviously depend upon it's "shown and demonstrated" demands and reprisals.
But why, after all this time would it start forcefully demanding things of us?
I would suggest that force and reprisal are the "shown and demonstrated" output of human zealots, and not that of an omni-sensible GOD.
The trouble with your hypothesis is that it exists inside your head, just like your specific interpretation of a GOD principle.
Inside my head, I possess enough packaged creativity to accept the idea of a GOD principle, but I also possess plenty of common sense, that tells me that 2000 year old folk tales are unlikely to be anything other than a metaphor for a notional GOD principle.
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@zedvictor4
But, there is a point to a God principle that takes it from principle, or metaphor, to text of real usefulness, like a pie recipe. A how-to. And pies end up being either really awful, or really terrific, and a lot of boredom in between. See, even with a recipe [metaphor for scripture, you know], there's no guarantee of outcome, because either people know how to handle the nuances of pie success, or they think they know, and do not, or don't know a bloody thing, but try, anyway. Have to hand it to the tryers. At least they're in the arena, and not sitting on the fence, criticizing.
My wife makes a terrific pie, and the secret is a great, buttery, flakey crust. Every time. She just knows what she's doing. The filling, regardless of what fruit it is, is great, too.
I can illustrate that pie, as well as appreciate the eating, so, my recipe book is a little different from hers, but we're both trying to fulfill the full measure of our creation, and that's what it's all about, because we're after that compliment at the end of the mortal road: "Well done, good and faithful servant. I have made you ruler over a few things; I will make you ruler of many things."
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@949havoc
Fruit pie...Yum Yum.
But I honestly didn't get the message.
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@SkepticalOne
think you might need to consider why I am not responding as you think I should. The term "God" carries some baggage for you.
Enlighten me please. I don't see how this is relevant at all even if you think you're making some kind of a point. I'm not asking about me. This was a topic created for your freedom of expression not mine.
Assuming a god exists doesn't tell me if that being is the greatest imaginable or merely something preexisting or marginally more powerful than humans. It doesn't tell me if that being is mortal or immortal. It doesn't tell me if that being is THE creator or even a creator. It doesn't tell me if that being has anything to do with humanity at all.
Give me any general idea of how you personally would define or acknowledge a concept of God and we can work from there.
That being said, the dynamics of god existing can be no more precise than the definition...and that is indeterminate.
But, it is in stark contrast to materialism. That in itself creates a whole new dynamic does it not?
This isn't an argument, debate or me trying to convince you of some religious dogma, this is just a game of the intellect for you to explore possibilities. If it does not interest you so be it.
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@zedvictor4
I have no idea what the fck you're going on about. Maybe you think this topic is something other than what I intended it. Go take a nap.
I would consider switching to a philosophical major because we now have a lot more things to discuss.
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@EtrnlVw
If people do not say what you want them to say, and then you respond with:
I have no idea what the fuck.
Really exemplifies the limits of one track theism.
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@EtrnlVw
think you might need to consider why I am not responding as you think I should. The term "God" carries some baggage for you.Enlighten me please. I don't see how this is relevant at all even if you think you're making some kind of a point. I'm not asking about me. This was a topic created for your freedom of expression not mine.
You may not be asking about you, but you're own assumed conception of god is being smuggled in to the question you are asking of other people.
Give me any general idea of how you personally would define or acknowledge a concept of God and we can work from there
I don't prefer one definition of god over another - they all seem equally likely/unlikely.
That being said, the dynamics of god existing can be no more precise than the definition...and that is indeterminate.But, it is in stark contrast to materialism.
How do you figure? How are you defining god so that materialism and god are mutually exclusive?
See...this is what I am referring to when I say you're smuggling your own assumptions in.
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@zedvictor4
Really exemplifies the limits of one track theism.
One track is not the problem. Ive been repeating for maybe 30 years, that God/Universe are synonyms.
God/Universe is eternally existent. Old news.
Physical energy, aka reality, cannot be created nor destroyed ergo, again, eternally existent God/Universe.
Simple, not complex to grasp such truths. Thesim ---ergo some religons---is not simple, not easy and lacks any shred of rational, logical, common sense, that, is also based on what is observed and scientific methodology.
Religous fundamentalist are like drunkards, they cant not grasp rational, logical common sense, ergo, they are waste of our time and effort.
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@EtrnlVw
If we grant for a moment that some god(s) exist we have still not said anything about what some god(s) are like what they would want or if they would have any impact on anyone's life.
Turn and turn about let's assume, just for the sake of argument, that it could not be proven, shown and demonstrated that any god(s) exists, what implications would arise for you personally?
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@SkepticalOne
You may not be asking about you, but you're own assumed conception of god is being smuggled in to the question you are asking of other people.
What conception of God have I smuggled in? you have not answered that question yet so I still have no idea what you are referring to. I still think you are reading into something that I am not doing.
I don't prefer one definition of god over another - they all seem equally likely/unlikely.
I didn't ask you what definition you prefer (because I'm not concerned with what anyone else has to offer). Here is what I asked...
Give me any general idea of how YOU personally would define or acknowledge a concept of God and we can work from there. In other words, if we were to start with what God means to YOU, what would that look like? after reading through your responses it seems you simply have no conception of God or any general idea of how you personally would define God, so God has no basic attributes that would define God as what a God would be?
Why are you so hesitant with such a question, it's not a trick question. I'm not trying to assert anything here or luring you into something. I just want to explore options without the influence of any dogma.
How do you figure? How are you defining god so that materialism and god are mutually exclusive?
Lol, one means something totally opposite from the other. One is and one is not, one has and one has not I mean do I really need to answer this? existence and nonexistence are in stark contrast with one another.
See...this is what I am referring to when I say you're smuggling your own assumptions in.
Enlighten me on how I did so? In one scenario God exists and the other no God exists. If that is what you mean by smuggling in my own concept of God then yes, for this topic I'm assuming God exists. That is the only way we could entertain your idea about God.
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@secularmerlin
If we grant for a moment that some god(s) exist we have still not said anything about what some god(s) are like what they would want or if they would have any impact on anyone's life.
We are going with what YOU think God would be like and what they would want. You guys are paranoid man.
what implications would arise for you personally?
You can start your own topic and I may or may not offer something. If you don't want to be here go away, this is not a trick question either play the game or check out.