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@n8nrgmi
More like pray to my 401K.
In god we trust is on every bill.
USA should regulate healthcare costs, and make insurance nonprofit, not focus on universal plan
Posts
Total:
96
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@Greyparrot
It also sounds like u think the average person should be a slave or rely on handouts given u don't think the government has a role in providing an alternative... For some reason u won't just come out and say this
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@n8nrgmi
I think the average person had the choice to be a slave to consumerism and overbudgeting and underinvesting in themselves, and chose slavery.
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@n8nrgmi
You won't admit the rat race is an obvious social construct.
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@Greyparrot
People spend too much and can live dirt cheap but the only way to escape the rat race to have a back up plan of relying on hand outs if the government isn't involved
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@Greyparrot
You claim that a right to healthcare would mean the poor who can't pay themselves would essentially be stealing. By that logic, wouldn't it be stealing for the poor to enjoy any public service? After all, it is the middle and upper class who pays taxes, not the poor. The military and the police are expensive agencies to run, so why should poor people be able to benefit from them. Is your argument is that individuals should get what you pay for and nothing more? But, then police would systematically neglect poor neighborhoods just like poor people systematically gets the worst and the least healthcare. On the other hand, if you think that basic safety is a human right regardless of your wallet, then you must agree that both the police and healthcare should be paid for by society at large, not the individual unfortunate enough to need said service.
That is to say, public healthcare is consistent with the values we build society on, it does not amount to stealing like you implied i your first post.
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@Benjamin
Correct. In fact, we are one of the only countries that holds our "poor" near completely unaccountable for their lifestyle choices. Most other nations tax their poor so that they pay their fair share and are encouraged and incentivized to participate in society responsibly and to conform to basic cultural standards. Especially the Nordic nations.
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@Benjamin
Imagine if a mob of men waited outside in a supermarket lot and one simply grabbed your cart of groceries that you paid for and left with them every time you went to get food for your family. Imagine that you would go to jail if you tried to stop him because he had a right to your food. That's essentially what you are advocating for here.
not the individual unfortunate enough to need said service.
Need is irrelevant. There are huge amounts of the population making lifestyle choices simply to qualify for benefits. The government has no qualifying competent ability to ascertain need or confirm actual disability, therefore need is largely irrelevant to the actual distribution of produced wealth.
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@Greyparrot
The American ideal that every service should be provided by private industries is the root of your healthcare problems. Healthcare in the US is among the worst and most expensive in the world. The free market ideals is totally not working, because of your strict entry laws. They cause a lack of competition where a few companies use their monopoly to raise prizes unhinged and exploit the population. Insurance companies and medical advisors make shady deals with healthcare companies, ensuring people gets the worst deals while business booms. Sure this "free market" approach to healthcare could be partially fixed by actually allowing free competition and stop the corruption; but the very idea that healthcare should be driven with only profit in mind is disastrous.
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@Greyparrot
You are one of the only countries where many people fear the doctor bill more than their health problems and die as a result. And I gotta ask, by "holding the poor accountable", do you mean shooting and imprisoning them? If you want to hold people accountable then why not start with politician who apparently gets away with everything? Why not start with the rich, who apart from avoiding to pay taxes and bribe politicians, also exploit and oppress workers while actively intensifying problems like the coronavirus and climate change. While black people are shot and imprisoned for minor offenses, police officials are by law protected from accountability, even in cases where its blatantly obvious that they acted horribly.
So please don't brag about helding people responsible. It clearly is not a priority or value in the US, just a bad excuse to ignore big systemic problems.
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@Benjamin
Why not start with the rich, who apart from avoiding to pay taxes and bribe politicians,
Here lies the problem. It seems you want to eliminate the free market and put it under state-regulated control. But apparently, the politicians are also corrupt. And who runs the state? Politicians.
So does shifting control from corrupt private companies to corrupt politicians actually solve the problem?
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@Greyparrot
need is largely irrelevant to the actual distribution of produced wealth.
Neither police nor healthcare can be called "produced wealth". Their function is fundamentally to fight random mallicious problems. Your argument is equally absurd as to claim that firefighters should be paid for only by those whose horses were burning. These public services are public for a reason, they protect society as a whole and should be paid for by society as a whole.
You have yet to adress my arguments. Public healthcare is no more stealing than any other usage of taxmoney. I sincerely believe that giving all people necessary medical care is more important than buying tanks bombs and submarines.
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@Fruit_Inspector
does shifting control from corrupt private companies to corrupt politicians actually solve the problem?
I am not entirely sure. What I do know is that the US healthcare is unfeasibly expensive compared to all other countries. Literally any reasonable change is bound to improve the system.
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@Benjamin
ThAtS CoMmUniSm!!!!!!!!
Most other nations tax their poor so that they pay their fair share
No they don't. Most nations are either hyper-capitalist hells for the poor because barely any tax is paid and therefore barely anything is publicly funded (zero welfare etc) or they are developed nations with progressive taxation that is gentlest on the poor.
The US is in fact the single harshest nation when it comes to how much it taxes the poor. Not saying this makes the poor in it suffer more than the 'hyper-capitalist hells' I am merely noticing a falsehood.
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@Benjamin
While this is just one source, it ranks the best providers worldwide in different healthcare fields. In every list, the top-ranked provider for each field is found in the United States. This includes cardiology, oncology, endocrinology, neurology, gastroenterology, and orthopedics.
Whether you want to argue about if the U.S. provides the best overall healthcare quality, it must at least be admitted that we are right up at the top. Higher quality care means more expensive care.
While I think conversations about costs and access are good to have, we should be extremely hesitant to just overhaul the very system that produced this type of quality. Perhaps it would be better to start looking at specific areas (I previously mentioned debt collection laws) to make smaller scale changes rather than handing over most or all of the healthcare industry to be handled by corrupt politicians. The U.S. government doesn't exactly have a great record when it comes to effective business practices.
"i conclude God doesn't exist, because when i look at evidence for God, my assumptions are that God doesn't exist" = literally the circular way ya'll think
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@n8nrgmi
I think you posted that reply to the wrong thread.
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@Fruit_Inspector
our system is majorly out of whack, and what you are describing is just tweaking it. you are mostly trying to get poorer people to pay more.... when doctors and other staff and hospitals and everyone involved is already paid way too much. a little more money isn't going to change much.
USA is worst on cost. it's worse on wait times overall. china puts out almost as much innovation as the USA and other countries are almost as good on a per capita basis. USA is only better on some specialized care, as you pointed out. hopefully we can revamp the system without doing much damage to those guys. it's not like we dont already ration costs, as that's what medicare and medicaid etc does. it's how every other country spends half as much as we do.
i suppose it just boils down to we need to take the risk, and just overhaul the system. it's out of control as it is. id do something sensible and say providers can't charge insurace more than a third more than medicare.... and all costs in our system have to grow at inflation minus one percent for the next twenty years. i'm open to suggestions but something like that might work. something major needs to be done, bottom line.
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@Benjamin
The American ideal that every service should be provided by private industries is the root of your healthcare problems.
It's not. There is massive corruption because a massive amount of the voter base pays no Federal taxes, therefore they have no incentive to elect people that will spend taxes without corruption. It's not just our healthcare that's broken due to corrupt crony regulations that keep our nation in a perpetual state of crony capitalism ruled by an elite class of oligarchal monopolies and lobbyists. Every industry is affected both public and private.
And I gotta ask, by "holding the poor accountable", do you mean shooting and imprisoning them?
No. Tax them at a fair rate like every other responsible nation.
Police officials are by law protected from accountability, even in cases where its blatantly obvious that they acted horribly.
A perfect example why the government should release it's current stranglehold on the healthcare private market and absolutely give up on the pipedream that they could magically manage healthcare better than they managed the police and schools as they have shown they can't even run either the police or schools without blatant incompetence and massive corruption.
Your argument is...
This: The government has no qualifying competent ability to ascertain need or confirm actual disability, especially a government as corrupt as America's.
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@Greyparrot
I agree with you on the American government being incapable of providing public healthcare. You still have not rebutted my argument that public healthcare is very different from stealing.
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@Benjamin
It's the idea that healthcare is a right for people that qualify to take from those that do not qualify.
That's not a concept that belongs in a meritocracy.
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@Greyparrot
Public healthcare means that everyone pays taxes and everyone gets the right healthcare when they need it. Nobody is unqualified for healthcare.
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@Benjamin
Public healthcare is a right granted to the government to decide what is best for all individuals.
America's government hasn't earned that right.
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@n8nrgmi
our system is majorly out of whack, and what you are describing is just tweaking it. you are mostly trying to get poorer people to pay more....
If you read my post about FDCPA laws, my suggestion had nothing to do with income levels. My suggestion was to not so easily allow people who receive services to refuse to pay when they have the means. The basic principles is that people should pay their bill for services they receive. What began as a valid protection against harmful collection practices (FDCPA) has turned into a protection for theft of services.
Do you think hospitals deserve to be paid for services rendered? Or should everyone be allowed to refuse payment for whatever reason they want with minimal consequences?
USA is worst on cost.
Higher cost is not necessarily a bad thing. The Mayo Clinic will cost more than my local clinic based on quality. Both will cost more than healthcare from a rural third world country. I am willing to pay higher costs for higher quality.
it's worse on wait times overall.
I would be interested to know where this statistic comes from.
china puts out almost as much innovation as the USA
They also practice forced organ harvesting from living people. That's not exactly a system I want to emulate.
USA is only better on some specialized care, as you pointed out.
The U.S. healthcare system has literally produced the best hospitals and specialized healthcare in the world, and you're just going to brush past that as though it hardly matters? We have to ask ourselves how the current system produced such a result. Conversely, we must seriously consider how your proposed changes will realistically affect these institutions, as well as future research and development they might otherwise perform.
hopefully we can revamp the system without doing much damage to those guys....i suppose it just boils down to we need to take the risk, and just overhaul the system.
This is the problem I have with this type of approach. It's easy to criticize generic statistics and then say we need to overhaul the system because there are so many problems. But it seems the main solution is "Let the state figure it out!" You can't operate a healthcare system on hopes and dreams.
Here are some of the issues you mentioned that are worth taking a closer look at:
PROBLEM: Doctors and staff are paid too much. This implies they make more than they should.
SOLUTION: Make sure doctors and staff are not paid too much.
QUESTIONS: What is the amount that doctors and staff should be making?
How will we specifically make sure that doctors and staff aren't paid more than they should be?
PROBLEM: Healthcare costs are too high.
SOLUTION: Let the government control prices and set limits.
QUESTION: What happens if regulations force the hospital to lose money because they can't charge patients enough to cover the actual cost of their services?
PROBLEM: Wait times are too long.
SOLUTION: Decrease wait times.
QUESTION: How will this specifically be accomplished?
PROBLEM: Debt collections (compelling people to pay their medical bills) currently makes the poor pay more.
SOLUTION: ????
QUESTIONS: How will hospitals be paid for services?
What means will hospitals have to recuperate payments for services rendered if bills go unpaid?
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@Fruit_Inspector
you said people should pay when they have the means, for the medical bills. if you mean poor people who cant pay shouldn't be forced to find a way, then we agree. if you think we should nickle and dime the poor to shake them down, then we dont agree. the medical industry is paid too much... we shouldn't be taking from those who have little to give to those who have too much.
yes i think medical providers deserve to be paid, as long as it's reasonable.
if you look at my opening post, another problem i have with your idea, is that it's such small fries. regulating prices and making insurance nonprofit is literally almost half the cost we pay, it's half the industry when you compare us to other countries.
you say you are willing to pay more for better quality... the problem is that that's an abstraction of an argument. what you imply is that you are willing to pay twice as much as other countries to have better specialized care. the thing is, most healthcare isn't specialized care so that's where most of the cost is, and that can be regulated. specialized care can be regualted too as long as it's not overboard. your statement that you are willing to pay more for better quality is so vague that it's meaningless
my stat on us having worse wait times overall is from 'the commonwealth'. just google that name and wait times and i think an article from the atlantic will pop up. wait times are a function of how many doctors we have, and we have less than other countries, thus we have worse wait times. but that article actually measures it. we are only better with specizlized care.
china doing organ harvesting has little to do with the fact that it's an innovative country, it's one bad aspect of their system, not the bulk of it. it's irrational to ignore what they're capable of because they have one bad factor.
The U.S. healthcare system has literally produced the best hospitals and specialized healthcare in the world, and you're just going to brush past that as though it hardly matters? We have to ask ourselves how the current system produced such a result. Conversely, we must seriously consider how your proposed changes will realistically affect these institutions, as well as future research and development they might otherwise perform.
we dont have to over regulate specialized care. simple as that. we can get charged less and get better quality. maybe on the specialized care point and doctor pay and hospital pay in general, we can just say they all should be paid up to a quarter more than the second most expensive country. that's a reasonable and generous standard.
QUESTION: What happens if regulations force the hospital to lose money because they can't charge patients enough to cover the actual cost of their services?
it's easier said than done, but the solution is just not to regulate too much.
PROBLEM: Wait times are too long.SOLUTION: Decrease wait times.QUESTION: How will this specifically be accomplished?
get more doctors and specialists. the indistry puts a limit on all those guys, and we can simply get more of them. nurse practitioners too.
PROBLEM: Debt collections (compelling people to pay their medical bills) currently makes the poor pay more.SOLUTION: ????QUESTIONS: How will hospitals be paid for services?What means will hospitals have to recuperate payments for services rendered if bills go unpaid?
you're worried about small fries. hosptials should be paid a reasonable rate with reasonable debt practices. you're talking about a dent in our industry and it's not the problem you think it is, for all the reasons i said above.
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@Fruit_Inspector
also, i dont know if you know something i dont... but creditor and debtor law covers debt for medical providers. there's an elaborate system that works just fine already in place. your opening post makes you out to sound like you dont know much about fair debt collection laws. yes we can agree there are probably unfair loop holes but we are both too ignorant to be able to address it. i used to work with a debt lawyer and those laws mostly just stop harassing and unfair practices... they're not letting able consumers from skipping their bills. medical providers can just follow normal debt law.
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@n8nrgmi
the medical industry is paid too much... we shouldn't be taking from those who have little to give to those who have too much.
Just like with doctors (which you failed to address), how much should the medical industry be making? You can't say the make too much if you don't specify how much they should be making. What's the standard?
my stat on us having worse wait times overall is from 'the commonwealth'. just google that name and wait times and i think an article from the atlantic will pop up.
I found the article. If it's the same one you were talking about, it's from 2013, and the link to the actual data doesn't work. This from the article:
- "The organization surveyed between 1,000 and 5,400 people in 11 industrialized nations."
A survey only tells us what people claim about their healthcare services. That is not hard data, and the population size is extremely small. I would be hesitant to make a claim like "the U.S. is worst overall on wait times [out of 11 nations]." But this is a relatively minor point that probably isn't worth arguing about.
if you look at my opening post, another problem i have with your idea, is that it's such small fries.
This is just one article from a quick online search (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/07/20/upshot/medical-debt-americans-medicaid.amp.html), but it claims there is $140 billion worth of medical debt in collections. Hospitals have to eat that expense, and they don't even get the full amount back if it is paid. Imagine if a nationwide retailer lost $140 billion in stolen merchandise. They would have to raise the price of everything else to make up that money. That is hardly a "small fry" amount.
your statement that you are willing to pay more for better quality is so vague that it's meaningless
No it's not. I don't want to have the same quality care as a third world country. The higher your quality of care, the more you have to pay. Medical equipment isn't cheap. Highly-trained doctors aren't cheap. As with pretty much everything, cost correlates with quality.
china doing organ harvesting has little to do with the fact that it's an innovative country, it's one bad aspect of their system, not the bulk of it. it's irrational to ignore what they're capable of because they have one bad factor.
Well that and the whole Communism thing.
But there seems to be a common thread with your solutions to some of the finer details of the healthcare system:
hopefully we can revamp the system without doing much damage to those guys....i suppose it just boils down to we need to take the risk, and just overhaul the system.
we dont have to over regulate specialized care. simple as that.
it's easier said than done, but the solution is just not to regulate too much.
Those are a lot of vague solutions. If you are going to overthrow the system, you need to have something to replace it with. And you don't just offer a solution to a few problems and ignore the rest. This isn't something you can just figure out as you go.
This is why making smaller scale changes might be more prudent. If you have a problem with how insurance operates, just focus on that first. Then if you solve that problem, move to the next one. Keep doing that, and you would be surprised with how much change you can make. And then you can avoid such massive risk if you make a bad call.
Collections
I worked in medical debt collections for a while. I'm no expert, but I can tell you that the public perception of collections is quite different than reality. While it is somewhat anecdotal, I am familiar enough with FDCPA laws to know how they can be helpful, but also how they often allow deadbeats to play the system. I was also able to pull credit reports to get an idea of people's financial standing.
We also already have programs to assist the poorest people (Medicaid/Charity Care/etc). Just don't be fooled into thinking everyone with medical debt is a victim who can't afford to pay for it.
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@Fruit_Inspector
u ignored one of my points that would be critical to your criticism of my argument. why dont we cap pay to doctors hospitals and everyone else, the same as the second most expensive country plus maybe twenty five percent? that's pretty generous isn't it?
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@n8nrgmi
That sounds like a logistical nightmare. Would the salary cap be the same for a doctor at Mayo and a doctor at my local hospital? Do we average the foreign doctors' salaries, or pick the highest paid one? If the foreign doctor gets a raise, does the U.S. doctor also get a raise? What if the foreign doctor does not require as much schooling or training as the U.S. doctor - do we factor in that added tuition expense to the U.S. salary or just not worry about that?
And that still doesn't give me a dollar amount. Have you actually calculated what those numbers would be? Or was it just an arbitrary percentage that you chose?