Bakugan Battle Brawlers Mafia DP1

Author: ILikePie5

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#61
Vader
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@whiteflame
Mods can change their philosophy. Full clarity is important as town because if we aren't clear on something and make an assumption that is blurred, we are more likely to screw that up as town because we have blurred analysis. You being not clear on what the message was saying by leaving crucial details means you tried hiding it. And some people are new, and some people simply forgot. We need to have that clarity to classify such a thing so town can decipher things properly. We now know that GP could be lying. I also note you briefly mentioned it but didn't put it in context, which I believe is important to assure as town, we got the same answers. But you never included that in the original.

I just think your reasoning for hiding it isn't good. Basing it off of "everyone should know this" is not a good response
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#62
ILikePie5
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Vote Count:

Grey (2/5) - Supa, Grey
Poly (2/5) - Whiteflame, Oro
Whiteflame (1/5) - Wylted 


#63
whiteflame
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Dude, if this is your basis for sussing me, I’m seriously at a loss for what you thought my plan was or even what you thought I did. Let’s follow what I did:

I clearly got information somehow that Pie wasn’t going to do anything about GP. That included a message where he said that mafia could be given fake claims.

I delivered that information to town, including the plausible usage of fake claims. The only thing I left out was that Pie actually told me there could be fake claims, which doesn’t seem particularly pertinent when that is always the case.

I then suggested that both you and Poly ask the same question to Pie, knowing that you would get either the same or a very similar answer to what I got. We’ve come to the same conclusion that I had already presented, the only difference is that you now sus me as well for coming to that conclusion without providing the information that you and anyone else could have obtained by asking the same question of Pie.

So, explain it to me: how did my choice not to include the statement “Pie told me” before “this could be a fake claim” benefit scum or hurt town in any way, especially when I was actively pushing you to ask the same question? Why would I do that as scum knowing full well that you would get the information I got? 
#64
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@Vader
At this point, I'm done arguing over this. If you want to FoS me, then that's your choice, but I think GP is obviously town. I think you are likely town, and I think it is a waste of our time to focus the discussion on just the three of us. We made the mistake of overfocusing in the last game, and it screwed us over. If the end result is that you want to push a lynch on someone who clearly just wants to be gone from this game or on me, then so be it, but the lack of involvement from everyone else is more troubling to me than anything you or GP have said. Luna has an excuse and Poly at least gave some indication of when he'd post again, but I don't know what's keeping everyone else from posting over the course of the entire day.

Wylted got his question answered, but still susses me solely on the basis that I asked it.

Oro hasn't been involved at all aside from tracking who has spoken and who hasn't.

Bron and Evil have basically done nothing.

I'd like to see more from any of them.
#65
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@oromagi
@drlebronski
@Evilgenius
Seriously, guys, no input on this at all? No thoughts on GP or my behavior? Would love to actually hear from you on this. You’ve all been online within the last 4 hours.
#66
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Grey wants to be modkilled. We used to policy lynch self voters. That should continue

UNVOTE VTL GREY

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#67
ILikePie5
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Vote Count:

Grey (3/5) - Supa, Grey, Wylted
Poly (2/5) - Whiteflame, Oro


#68
oromagi
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Not much to analyze.

  • GP's claim read like a Pie written ROLE
  • "Gentlemen, Sorrow, Anger," is one obv auto correct.  
    • The character name Fourtress may also have been corrected to Fortress
  • So, we're meant to believe that GP cut & pastea the DP except for wincon.  Why leave off wincon if you are demonstrating idgaf?
  • In terms of gameplay, ASCETIC essentially plays like MILLER- conveniently untestable.

#69
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Self-voting
In many situations players have either emotionally or tactically self-voted, bringing them closer to elimination, or self-hammered, casting the final vote to eliminate themselves.

This play is seen as highly controversial.

Emotional self-voting
Oftentimes players, believing their elimination to be inevitable, or losing interest in the game, will self-vote in frustration to further their elimination.
  • As town
    • Theoretically, furthering one's own elimination as town is a strictly anti-town move. As the player is the only confirmed town they know, eliminating anyone else is superior if only for the chance at eliminating scum. As such, self-voting as town is often frowned upon.
  • As scum
    • Similarly, as mafia need more mafia members alive to win, a mafia member voting themselves is anti-scum in most scenarios in which their elimination can be avoided.
Tactical self-voting

  • As scum
    • Due to the prevalence of townies self-voting in frustration, many scum players have faked frustration and self-voted as an Appeal to Emotion, in order to be read as genuine frustrated town. This tactic has led to self-voting being regarded as a common scumtell.
  • As town
    • Fong's Gambit is a strategy in which a town player, recognizing that self-voting is seen as a scumtell, self-votes to evaluate the reactions of other players, and hopefully coax scum into opportunistically voting them. This play was popularized by the IRC Channel #mafia user fong.
    • As it is a variation of Slayer's Gambit, in which a town player purposefully acts scummy to gauge reactions, the value of this gambit is also debated.
Self-hammering
While self-voting is generally highly controversial, the practice of tactically self-hammering is seen as beneficial in niche scenarios.

  • As scum
    • If a scum player strongly believes their elimination to be inevitable, it can be effective to self-hammer in order to sow confusion and send the game into the Night phase. This can:
      • Cut off further discussion and information, reducing town Power Roles' abilities to plan for the night.
      • Unexpectedly cut off the input of whomever is about to be nightkilled.
      • Reduce potential associations between the eliminated and the remaining mafia members.
      • Hamper Vote Count Analysis and prevent town's ability to generate reads on what would be another player's hammering vote.
  • As town
    • In any case in which another elimination is still possible, it is almost always anti-town to self-hammer. However, if the day's deadline is imminent, a No Elimination would be statistically worse for town, and no other options are available, it can be appropriate for the player to self-hammer, providing the town with some information from that day, and preventing their likely elimination on future days.
    • In some setups, such as Vote for Town Mafia, the players are voting for someone that they believe to be town, rather than someone that they believe to be scum. In this situation it's common for townies to self-hammer, because they know their own alignment and thus that the vote will be beneficial for them. (In fact, the self-vote is normally taken into account when balancing this sort of setup; late in the game, town might not have the numbers to get a vote through otherwise.)
Common tell
While this practice is commonly seen as scum-indicative, no data has been compiled on the actual effectiveness of self-voting as a towntell or a scumtell. The lack of strong evidence one way or the other has led some players to believe that voting for self-voters is actually just a Policy Elimination for anti-town behavior.


#70
Polyglot
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@oromagi
  • So, we're meant to believe that GP cut & pastea the DP except for wincon.  Why leave off wincon if you are demonstrating idgaf?
Well I can attest that the wincon and my role weren’t sent to me in the same message. Pie sent it to me after. So I’m sure the same happened with GP, and he just copied the first message 
#71
oromagi
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@Polyglot
-->@oromagi
  • So, we're meant to believe that GP cut & pastea the DP except for wincon.  Why leave off wincon if you are demonstrating idgaf?
Well I can attest that the wincon and my role weren’t sent to me in the same message. Pie sent it to me after. So I’m sure the same happened with GP, and he just copied the first message 
That's odd.  What did your wincon say?
#72
oromagi
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@Polyglot
What do you think of policy lynching self-lynchers?
#73
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@oromagi
That's odd.  What did your wincon say?
You win with the town
#74
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@oromagi
@Polyglot
I personally see this as anti-town behavior on GP's part, and would prefer a lynch on him to doing nothing or lynching randomly, but wouldn't put him first if we have someone to sus.

Well I can attest that the wincon and my role weren’t sent to me in the same message. Pie sent it to me after. So I’m sure the same happened with GP, and he just copied the first message 
Pie did the same with me. I actually alerted him to the absence of a wincon in the original PM, and he may have sent it out to everyone immediately afterward. 

#75
oromagi
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@whiteflame

Well I can attest that the wincon and my role weren’t sent to me in the same message. Pie sent it to me after. So I’m sure the same happened with GP, and he just copied the first message 
Pie did the same with me. I actually alerted him to the absence of a wincon in the original PM, and he may have sent it out to everyone immediately afterward. 
Interesting.  Mine came with wincon included @4:45 PM.

#76
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@whiteflame
Catching up real quick, been busy at work.
#77
whiteflame
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@oromagi
It's possible that he just forgot with certain ones. Wouldn't be surprised if he just had a list going and left one or two out.  That being said, the fact that Poly has a follow-up PM giving him the wincon tells me he's more likely to be town. Scum may have received a similar message, but I think Pie was less likely to leave off scum wincons than town. Perhaps that's a mistake of interpretation, so I'm not going to rely too much on that read.

All that being said, you stated early "YwwtT", which is in line with both my and Poly's wincons. Not sure that vindicates you, because if I'm right that Pie was more thorough with scum, then it's plausible that you were given a fake claim that included the wincon.

Again, not reading too much into this yet, want to give it some thought.
#78
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@Evilgenius
Alright, appreciate your attention, hope work wasn't too stressful.
#79
oromagi
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@whiteflame
ou stated early "YwwtT", which is in line with both my and Poly's wincons.
interesting that you noticed but said nothing and let Poly confirm the wincon.
#80
whiteflame
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@oromagi
interesting that you noticed but said nothing and let Poly confirm the wincon.
Yes, I made that choice quite deliberately, since doing so gave me a pretty good indication that Poly is town. It's plausible that he saw the same post and inferred the same conclusion that I did, though he wouldn't have added that he received the message about his wincon after receiving his initial PM. Maybe I could have given myself some town cred by claiming it as well, though I think I learned more from this particular exchange than I would have by spilling to beans myself.

By the by, I have also made the choice not to point out other details of that post that I believe are also pertinent, given that you've also included what appears to be a pretty clear soft claim in there. Not sure why no one else decided to point that out, but given that it's the only non-C/P claim on the table, I think we should consider it. Am I correct that you claimed the Beloved Princess?

#81
oromagi
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@whiteflame
 Am I correct that you claimed the Beloved Princess?
No, but I can totally see how you got there and considering the methodology your guess ought to be much further off the mark than is the case.



#82
whiteflame
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@oromagi
No, but I can totally see how you got there and considering the methodology your guess ought to be much further off the mark than is the case.
Fascinating. Alright, I'll continue considering this. 

Also, since my vote is still up on Poly, unvote
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#83
ILikePie5
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Vote Count:

Grey (3/5) - Supa, Grey, Wylted
Poly (1/5) - Oro

#84
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@whiteflame
my Wiscon is in the same pm not separate, but yeah poly is definitely town for that
#85
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also whiteflame is practically confirmed town. I am going to consider GP confirmed town and myself from my angle.

Unvote
#86
Wylted
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I still think we should lynch GP for the self vote
#87
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@Wylted
What's the motivation to ask in chat? If he is town, it is anti town because it is something that may have went unnoticed by Pie. If he is scum, he gets a free elimination on GP. 

I Don't see any good reason for asking, especially in a PM instead of publicly and risking a free kill on a town. 
I think this is a bit of a stretch tbh. And I think whiteflame as mafia pulling a ruse here would try to make ask public on purpose to flounder him being town by acting as if he didn't already have that information. If he was scum with and presumably so was GP I assume there is no reason to ask privately. Null tell
#88
Lunatic
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@Vader
I have already sent the PM. Just know if I receive a different answer I will be voting you and I know you will be lynched because of it If you are telling the truth, I'm going to have some real issue with the moderation
How was the fact that he wasn't killed not already evidence that whiteflame was telling the truth lol. Why would he lie about that? The vote on greyparrot seems super oppertunistic. 
#89
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vtl supadudz, convoluted reasons/oppertunistic reasons for voting. I would go as far as to say GP is confirmed town here. Even with knowledge that pie gives fake claims. It's too much of a stretch to think he just copy/pasted his whole role pm or that he made that role up. GP is too lazy for that and clearly wants to die so as not to participate in a game he didn't sign up in. Also pie doesn't just give whole role pms with justifications in his fake claims.... He might give a character, or a role, or maybe if mafia are lucky a character and role but did GP do all that theme research to make that role PM just to not participate in anyway and hope to die? I doubt it. And considering no one else is giving him a pass for this beside me, I doubt if he was mafia his partner sold off on that, unless you assume of course I am his partner blatanly buddying him and waited over 2 days to post in which case he could have been lynched already. This isn't a big brain mafia move here. As far as I am concerned GP is confirmed town, and I find any participation on his lynch scummy.

So far that puts both supa and poly on my radar since poly also mentioned suspecting GP.
#90
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Not much to analyze.

  • GP's claim read like a Pie written ROLE
  • "Gentlemen, Sorrow, Anger," is one obv auto correct.  
    • The character name Fourtress may also have been corrected to Fortress
  • So, we're meant to believe that GP cut & pastea the DP except for wincon.  Why leave off wincon if you are demonstrating idgaf?
  • In terms of gameplay, ASCETIC essentially plays like MILLER- conveniently untestable.

x1000