To address these challenges, we compiled and analysed a dataset detailing nearly 100 million traffic stops carried out by 21 state patrol agencies and 35 municipal police departments over almost a decade. This dataset was built through a series of public records requests filed in all 50 states. To facilitate future analysis, we have redistributed these records in a standardized form.
Nigeria is racist and Black supremacist
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@Reece101
Weed consumption and arrest rates:
You source would be taken on good faith if it cited that the drug possession was the ONLY charge at the time of the arrest. Your source does not do that.
We analysed data on approximately 95million stops from 21state patrol agencies (blue) and 35municipal police departments (red) across the country.
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@Reece101
Well this is a decent argument and certainly far better than most of the rubbish posted to this website. Let's have a look.
Weed consumption and arrest rates:
None of these studies control for the fact that Blacks lie about weed consumption far more than Whites. Blacks are more likely than Whites to lie about using drugs, and this finding has been consistently found Supp82(3).book(jti065.fm) (nih.gov) Urinalysis Screened vs Verbally Reported Drug Use: The Identification of Discrepant Groups: International Journal of the Addictions: Vol 12, No 4 (tandfonline.com) "The Validity of Injection Drug Users Self-Reported Use of Opiates and " by Russel S. Falck, Harvey A. Siegal et al. (wright.edu) Drug Use among Juvenile Arrestees: A Comparison of Self-Report, Urinalysis and Hair Assay | Request PDF (researchgate.net) .
I don't see any mention of in any of the studies the way in which Blacks use/buy the drugs. Blacks are more likely to buy drugs outdoors than White people (which is riskier in terms of being caught) at 0.31 correlation versus White's 0.14. Blacks are about three times likely to buy from a stranger (0.3 versus 0.09). Blacks are also significantly more likely to buy away from their homes (0.61 versus 0.48) Racial differences in marijuana-users' risk of arrest in the United States - PubMed (nih.gov) . This riskier buying of drugs makes Blacks more likely to be caught.
Based on the research, it is wise to assume that Blacks getting arrested more for drug use is a result of their higher drug usage (despite them lying about it), taking drugs in riskier areas, and buying drugs in riskier places.
I agree that Blacks are getting arrested more, but that appears to be accounted for by the way they use drugs, the amount they use, and the way they buy them.
Racial disparities when it comes to drug arrests in general:
They only accounted for some of the variables: "Our results suggest that race/ethnicity is associated with outcomes in drug-related arrests and that overrepresentation of racial/ethnic minorities in the criminal justice system cannot be attributed to greater use of drugs and alcohol in general."
So they've argued that the greater usage cannot account for the arrest disparity, and based on the research I cited for your previous study, I agree. The other confounding variables that needed to be controlled for are (1) the way in which Blacks do these drugs, and (2) the way in which Blacks buy these drugs. The study you quoted here did not account for those variables, hence it cannot deductively conclude there is systemic racism (i.e. that the only explanation for racial disparities in drug arrests is systemic racism).
Traffic stops in general:
Your study specifically said getting stopped more isn't necessarily a result of racial bias: "The disparities we discuss below likely result from a combination of
complex factors, and do not necessarily reflect racial bias."
The only part of traffic stops that the study claims to be have racial bias is with search rates: "In the case of search decisions, we explicitly test for discrimination by examining both
the rate at which drivers are searched and the likelihood searches turn up contraband. We find
evidence that the bar for searching black and Hispanic drivers is lower than for searching whites."
So, let's look at only that.
The methodology in the paper used to conclude that search rates are racially biased involves usage of 'The Outcomes Test' (your paper correctly calls it that, too).
Let's first get a grip on what The Outcome Test is. If police searched members of each race in accordance with the same threshold rule (e.g. 10% or higher chance of being a criminal means you get searched), the rate in which those searched are confirmed to be committing crimes would be the same across races (if there is no racial bias). However, if the 'hit rate' (the rate in which people are found to be engaged in criminal activity) is higher among Whites, the threshold being used for Whites must be unfairly higher (for example, if the hit rate among Whites was 36% and the hit rate was 18% for Blacks, police must have a lower threshold rule for searching Blacks than for searching Whites -- that's The Outcome Test argument).
So, one problem with The Outcome Test is that it's an invalid test. The Outcome Test incorrectly assumes (in the case of your study) that all groups involved have exactly the same risk distributions to the right of the threshold (there is no reason to think this and it would be astronomically coincidental if that were true). Therefore, differences in hit rate can exist in the absence of any discrimination (possible explanations not controlled for: maybe because of the way young males present themselves, maybe being more likely to wear gang clothes, maybe police have a non-racial quota for searches for each day etc.).
Another problem is that it produces inconsistent results: Imgur: The magic of the Internet (taken from: Generalising the Hit Rates Test for Racial Bias in Law Enforcement, with an Application to Vehicle Searches in Wichita | The Economic Journal | Oxford Academic (oup.com) ). Across multiple tests, you can see the wide variety of results.
There are other reasons The Outcome Test isn't a good test, but these arguments are the easiest to understand and sufficient to debunk your paper.
Not a "neighbourhood", 'the hood'. It's not a good idea to go out at night in these ghetto areas, and because Blacks are more likely to live in these ghetto areas, you're going to get less Blacks out at night. The specific graph from the 2020 study you failed to cite properly is data compiled only for Texas (not even close to the entire US), and parts of Texas (e.g. Houston) certainly have these ghetto 'hood' areas.Here’s the study I was referring to: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-020-0858-1?proof=tWhy are you lying?
This is a truly baffling question because this has been the 2020 paper I've been referring to the whole time. This is where the Texas graph came from (It's Fig 2 Fig. 2: An illustration of the veil-of-darkness test for stops occurring in three short time windows in a single state, Texas. | Nature Human Behaviour ). Neither of these things is a lie. You didn't cite the study until just now, hence the "failed to cite properly". I'm just so well-researched on the topic that I knew the data you were referring to, even if you failed to post to study until now.
What on Earth do you think I'm lying about LOL
What a sad way to end what was otherwise a decent post.
You do realize individual actions influence systems?....right?
You do realize that this isn't systemic racism?.....right?
A White man from Alabama calling a Black man a n*gger doesn't mean the US is systemically racist.
That is literally how stupid your argument is lol.
To address these challenges, we compiled and analysed a dataset detailing nearly 100 million traffic stops carried out by 21 state patrol agencies and 35 municipal police departments over almost a decade. This dataset was built through a series of public records requests filed in all 50 states. To facilitate future analysis, we have redistributed these records in a standardized form.We analysed data on approximately 95million stops from 21state patrol agencies (blue) and 35municipal police departments (red) across the country.
The actual dataset Reece and I are discussing isn't the 95 million total.
It's the one involving the veil of darkness Fig 2 of Texas: "The figure is based on 112,938 stops of black and white drivers (35,270 during 19:00–19:15, 38,726 during 19:15–19:30 and 38,942 during 19:30–19:45), with points sized according to the total number of stops in each bin."
That's still a super large sample size, but it isn't quite 95 million.
If a system is much harsher on your demographic for being involved with drugs, your demographic ends up more likely to lie about having any involvement with said drugs. That's pretty simple.
If a system is much harsher on your demographic for being involved with drugs, your demographic ends up more likely to lie about having any involvement with said drugs. That's pretty simple.
You're begging the question.
You haven't proven that the system is "much harsher" based on systemic racism.
Just because Black people are getting arrested more per capita doesn't mean that systemic racism exists.
Also, I'm glad that you agree with my argument that Black people lie more about drug usage.
Since you don't mind simply pasting links as your proof, I'll paste links on it.
Since you don't mind simply pasting links as your proof, I'll paste links on it.
I do mind, actually :)
Why don't you spell out what arguments you're making from these links? That way, we can better see the argument you're making.
Or am I a "far-right", "racist", "white supremacist", "fascist", "Hitler", "Donald Trump", "bully" and "oppressor" for asking that?
I never called you Hitler, you're more of a Mussolini.
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@Mesmer
I’m not well versed in reading studies but it seems you pay for some of yours. One paper is behind a paywall, the other you have to request for it.
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@Reece101
Do you have sources tracking arrests and convictions for drug possession ONLY?
@mesmer
Massive strawman.
Think of it like this.
If a huge amount of police officers have an implicit bias against black people
that is not just individual thats a large amount of people in a system that have a bias.
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@Reece101
I’m not well versed in reading studies but it seems you pay for some of yours. One paper is behind a paywall, the other you have to request for it.
I screenshotted the relevant graph that I was referring to (it's separate to the paywall link).
Are you going to respond to the rest of what I wrote, or do you just agree with it all?
This is the post: Nigeria is racist and Black supremacist (debateart.com) .
Massive strawman.Think of it like this.If a huge amount of police officers have an implicit bias against black peoplethat is not just individual thats a large amount of people in a system that have a bias.
If you want to argue that, feel free to source and construct that argument.
I never called you Hitler, you're more of a Mussolini.
You did call me Hitler:
"I am not going to fall for a new age Hitler or Stalin, left-wing or right-wing the sophistry and bullcrap you pass as genuine politics isn't my concern."
"Hitler, Stalin, Margaret Thatcher, Donald Trump, Mao, they play the same tune 'we are different, we will bring back to you the pride you once lost, help this revolution and we will make our national pride and the silent majority rise once again'"
This of course came after I debunked all the studies you dumped into the thread (you know, kinda what you tried to do here):
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@Mesmer
There's a huge difference between being arrested FOR drugs and being arrested WITH drugs.
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@Greyparrot
There's a huge difference between being arrested FOR drugs and being arrested WITH drugs.
Are you referring to dealers and buyers?
If so, buyers need help, but dealers need the death penalty.
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@Mesmer
No I mean there's a huge difference between someone arrested and convicted FOR drug possession alone and another who happened to be WITH drugs during another unrelated crime.
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@Mesmer
I screenshotted the relevant graph that I was referring to (it's separate to the paywall link).
Where?
Are you going to respond to the rest of what I wrote, or do you just agree with it all?This is the post: Nigeria is racist and Black supremacist (debateart.com) .
You said:
So they've argued that the greater usage cannot account for the arrest disparity, and based on the research I cited for your previous study, I agree.
Which one are you referring to? I read through all the first one but then the others I had trouble with.
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@Mesmer
Are you referring to dealers and buyers?If so, buyers need help, but dealers need the death penalty.
Does that include doctors/physicians, or is it just a licensing thing?
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@Greyparrot
No I mean there's a huge difference between someone arrested and convicted FOR drug possession alone and another who happened to be WITH drugs during another unrelated crime.
True.
I've never seen data that delves into this, though.
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@Reece101
I screenshotted the relevant graph that I was referring to (it's separate to the paywall link).Where?
So they've argued that the greater usage cannot account for the arrest disparity, and based on the research I cited for your previous study, I agree.Which one are you referring to? I read through all the first one but then the others I had trouble with.
I'm referring to all of the research I cited, so it's this entire chunk of text (these are the confounding variables that "greater usage" doesn't control for):
"None of these studies control for the fact that Blacks lie about weed consumption far more than Whites. Blacks are more likely than Whites to lie about using drugs, and this finding has been consistently found Supp82(3).book(jti065.fm) (nih.gov) Urinalysis Screened vs Verbally Reported Drug Use: The Identification of Discrepant Groups: International Journal of the Addictions: Vol 12, No 4 (tandfonline.com) "The Validity of Injection Drug Users Self-Reported Use of Opiates and " by Russel S. Falck, Harvey A. Siegal et al. (wright.edu) Drug Use among Juvenile Arrestees: A Comparison of Self-Report, Urinalysis and Hair Assay | Request PDF (researchgate.net) .
I don't see any mention of in any of the studies the way in which Blacks use/buy the drugs. Blacks are more likely to buy drugs outdoors than White people (which is riskier in terms of being caught) at 0.31 correlation versus White's 0.14. Blacks are about three times likely to buy from a stranger (0.3 versus 0.09). Blacks are also significantly more likely to buy away from their homes (0.61 versus 0.48) Racial differences in marijuana-users' risk of arrest in the United States - PubMed (nih.gov) . This riskier buying of drugs makes Blacks more likely to be caught."
Are you referring to dealers and buyers?If so, buyers need help, but dealers need the death penalty.Does that include doctors/physicians, or is it just a licensing thing?
I'm talking about only illicit drugs and people who deal/buy them illegally.
This is like heroin dealers or weed users.
This has nothing to do with doctors/physicians or licensing.
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@Mesmer
Oh the OP is purely satire and designed to present all the bad arguments that Progressives make. Don't take is seriously or as my own opinion -- it is designed to be......all this thread is about. Don't take it seriously or you're falling into the trap, too.
Now that I've read your post again, I can see that it's satire. Regardless, I just want to point out that I believe in assimilation, especially when it comes to immigrants. How else can you expect Nigeria to survive other than it heavily favoring its own citizens. Imho, some levels of discrimination against foreigners are acceptable. Nigeria could be an ethnostate and I would still think it's okay. I just think immigrants have a duty to assimilate, or alternatively, they can always return or migrate back to their home countries.
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@Mesmer
I know the link is unrelated to the OP, but what are your thoughts on the recent Danish policy against minorities?
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@MarkWebberFan
Regardless, I just want to point out that I believe in assimilation, especially when it comes to immigrants.
Immigrants never fully assimilate but they aren't the biggest problem. They're usually genuinely thankful and appreciative of the new country they're in, so they do their best to fit in. Some immigrants are trash, although vetting immigrants can usually help to avoid this.
However, if they have children, the children act entitled towards the wealth they were born into (whereas the immigrants did not because they knew the hardship in immigration/their home country). It basically ends up being a slow, peaceful invasion until the immigrant's descendants hit critical mass and start demanding things in block politics.
How else can you expect Nigeria to survive other than it heavily favoring its own citizens. Imho, some levels of discrimination against foreigners are acceptable. Nigeria could be an ethnostate and I would still think it's okay.
I'm not blaming Nigeria for heavily favoring their own citizens. The satire was mocking shitlibs who argue that White people favoring their own kind is "racist", yet when other races do it there is radio silence.
I've got no problem with Nigeria being a Black ethnostate.
I just think immigrants have a duty to assimilate, or alternatively, they can always return or migrate back to their home countries.
They do have that duty but a lot of immigrants simply bring their 3rd world problems into 1st world countries. Also, particularly in wealthier countries, bad immigrants tend to sit on the dole and are a massive drain on the economy, let alone all the social problems they bring.
I know the link is unrelated to the OP, but what are your thoughts on the recent Danish policy against minorities?
This is excellent and I hope they're able to achieve it and push it down further.
I am happy for the Danish people.
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@Mesmer
They do have that duty but a lot of immigrants simply bring their 3rd world problems into 1st world countries. Also, particularly in wealthier countries, bad immigrants tend to sit on the dole and are a massive drain on the economy, let alone all the social problems they bring.
Well-said. I fully agree.
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@Mesmer
In Liberia you can't be a citizen unless you're black.
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@dfss9788
And until very recently, you couldn’t own land unless you were Liberian and only blacks can get Liberian citizenship.
I say the government should set up affirmative action programs for the rest of eternity to rectify this injustice.
bad immigrants tend to sit on the dole and are a massive drain on the economy, let alone all the social problems they bring.
Can you show me a single country where it's immigrants, as opposed to entitled native (in US this can mean both native american and caucasian but generally I'm referring to Caucasian natives) locals, who live on the dole by and large?
If you mean the US and by 'immigrants' you mean descendants of slaves who were brought against their will, I think there's reason for a resentment and ure towards the state, this wasn't what you described though.
For instance, you've posted recently some rather racist remarks about how you would compare the aborigenese in Australia to East Asian immigrants to 'western nations' (which you don't realise only the wealthy Asians emigrate out to those nations in the first place) but what I am confused about here is that it's the Caucasian invaders who are the immgrants more so than the Aboriginese natives, so I am very confused why you'd focus on them in one post and immigrants in the next unless you're just a racist cloaking your agenda. This isn't ad hominem, I don't see a single other reason to fuse those angles unless it's about race and not immigration.