Specifically, COVID has an RNA proof reading mechanism that reduces mutation rate whereas flu does not.
Okay, and would you admit then that this is a sign it's a designed/manufactured virus as opposed to a naturally originating one?
biden's vaccine mandate is unconstitutional but why should i care?
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@n8nrgmi
Do you realise that the law Biden passed lets the organisations give leeway to the unvaccinated via weekly tests instead?
If Democrats want to be so in-your-face insistent that a woman has a right to the privacy of her body - even though the fetus within it, if she's pregnant, is not in any way part of her body, and just containing it does not make part of, boys and girls, and whatever, but, SCOTUS was not smart enough in 1973 to consider all that, and, in fact, ignored it, but, they're considering it now - then any person, male, female, whatever, has the right to refuse another invasive procedure, a vaccine. Once you've opened the door, boys and girls, it is available to pass through it. That's how you constructed Roe v. Wade, so, either change it, or live with its unconsidered side consequences.
Or, have some of you not been listening when some members of the Supreme Court, including Ruth Bader Ginsberg, in her time, have publicly argued that Roe v. Wade may have had errors in its justification, and ought to be addressed by them. Just need the right case before them to make changes to the precedent.
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@RationalMadman
What "law" did Biden pass? He's not in Congress anymore, and has no legislative authority. You mean a policy? An EO? What
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@949havoc
“...Then any person, male, female, whatever, has the right to refuse another invasive procedure, a vaccine.”
You do.
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@RationalMadman
it's a designed/manufactured virus as opposed to a naturally originating one?
There is a third option: that it was a naturally occurring virus whose distribution has been designed/manufactured.
Or a fourth: the virus was both designed/manufactured and manipulated in distribution.
I'm not limited by the clowns who devised the TV show, Ancient Aliens, who think humans are too dumb to think of anything technical, it's all alien influence.
here is another plausible law biden could use for his basis for mandates
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@Ramshutu
Not according to Biden, unless he allows the exemption, himself. In other words, a despot.
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@949havoc
Given that he has not legally mandated COVID vaccines for all Americans indicates that there are fairly large exemptions, no?
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@949havoc
The optics on this are so, so bad on multiple levels, most particularly undermining the year long claim that being vaccinated was supposed to keep you safe and now Biden is saying the unvaccinated are putting vaccinated people at risk.
The secondary optic of using OSHA mandates to coerce workers of large employers is also ham-fisted and questionable as it essentially forces the worker to get the vaccine or get fired; or alternatively as a headscratcher to try to find a job with a place with fewer than 100 workers. Particularly in light of the first optic where people are going to ask even more vociferously...why???
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@Ramshutu
There is a lot of immunity; but in the US 100-150k people are catching the virus per day
That’s exactly the point. Over 80% of blood donors had antibodies: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2784013
Blood donors may not be the most representative sample, but this study was in May, before the Delta wave which infected millions and spurred many more to get vaccinated. Whatever point you’re trying to reach, we are already there. After delta the population with no immunity at all has to be tiny…this thing is here to stay
I don’t accept the comparison with abortion; for a few general reasons.
The point wasn’t to compare the two, but to point out that there is an established “right to privacy” that limits what the government is allowed to do. I don’t see how a private business owners decision on which private citizens to keep on the payroll wouldn’t fall under any reasonable definition of a right to privacy
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@Greyparrot
The optics on this are so, so bad on multiple levels, most particularly undermining the year long claim that being vaccinated was supposed to keep you safe and now Biden is saying the unvaccinated are putting vaccinated people at risk.
I don’t know, I think that public opinion will mostly be on Biden’s side here. But it’ll be interesting to see because I know that key portions of the dem base are disproportionately unvaccinated, and this will juice turn out of people who dislike the mandate so I don’t know how it will play out.
It’s crazy that he’s going ahead with it though. I’m not a legal scholar, but if the President is allowed to do something like this I don’t see how they aren’t just an elected dictator.
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@thett3
I'm still wondering how any of those OSHA mandates can be enforceable with HIPAA laws...
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@thett3
I don’t know, I think that public opinion will mostly be on Biden’s side here.
Somebody is telling Biden that somehow he can win the "war" on Covid with a vax mandate...
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@Greyparrot
It probably isn’t enforceable, but it doesn’t need to be. The point was to give corporations the cover to stick their necks out. In the coming days, almost every major corporation will announce that in compliance with the new federal regulations, all employees must be vaccinated. This will happen long before the legal issue is settled, and when it is that will only matter for a few holdouts. I know a lot of governors have said they’ll fight this but I don’t really see how they’re going to do so other than the court system which, again, is too late. It’s quite clever really, I have to hand it to Biden even though I don’t like what he’s doing he’s definitely trying to rule, which is something no President has done since Nixon
I’m also interested to see what happens with booster shots. Since two dosed people are no longer “fully vaccinated”. It seems like a recipe for disaster
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@thett3
The 80% of adults number is misleading given all the immunological nuances (repeat infections, breakthroughs, kids, etc)
The bottom line, is that with our current levels of immunity - peak cases in september has only dropped to around 2/3rds of where it was in January with almost no vaccinations.
Deaths are much better, down to less than 1/3rd of where it was in January so far. Though still at a rate of being a bad flu season every few weeks.
With delta, as Whiteflame suggested, with higher viral replication rates; there’s likely just as much chance of further variants as there was in January.
So we’re not at the point where immunity renders COVID endemic yet; and remember, there’s still issues of long COVID and hospitalization impacts, especially leading into the next flu season (which is likely going to pretty bad too)
The bottom line, is that with our current levels of immunity - peak cases in september has only dropped to around 2/3rds of where it was in January with almost no vaccinations.
Deaths are much better, down to less than 1/3rd of where it was in January so far. Though still at a rate of being a bad flu season every few weeks.
With delta, as Whiteflame suggested, with higher viral replication rates; there’s likely just as much chance of further variants as there was in January.
So we’re not at the point where immunity renders COVID endemic yet; and remember, there’s still issues of long COVID and hospitalization impacts, especially leading into the next flu season (which is likely going to pretty bad too)
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@thett3
I mean, if the idea was to win the war on Covid and we know the virus hangs around for quite a while in the vaccinated and the non-vaxxed who had previous exposure and antibodys... I just don't see how Biden pulls a W out of it considering we will likely continue to be hearing about cases even with the marginal increases in the vaxxed due to the Osha mandates. So you're basically going to continue to have frightened people wrongfully equating cases with mortality rates among the vaxxed due to bad messaging and bad optics along with people pissed for having to make a choice between their body and their work.
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@Greyparrot
If a new variant comes along and wrecks the vaccinated it will be very bad for him. But if the virus is now endemic and is never as bad as it was before again, something that was probably close to happening with all the immunity from catching it + vaccines, he can claim credit for it. The public is a lot more in favor of covid safetyism than you or I, sadly. As opposed as I am to making children wear masks all day and as much as I think it’s a pointless and horrible thing to do…the majority doesn’t agree. It’s sad but true
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@thett3
i think the courts could grant an emergency injunction to make biden's rule unenforceable until the case is settled. that may or may not happen
i think biden's rule is still unconstitutional based on overly broad legislation. he has a statute to back him up and a constitutional clause, but it's still too vague of legislation and too much power to give one man to coerce millions, a third of the population, into getting an injection. that's the kind of thing a legislature is meant to do
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@thett3
I don't know, maybe my skeptical side suggests Biden is conflating cases with mortality rates on purpose knowing there will always be cases regardless of vaxxed people. This ensures a never ending justification for mandates to go along with those cases.
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@949havoc
If Democrats want to be so in-your-face insistent that a woman has a right to the privacy of her body… then any person, male, female, whatever, has the right to refuse another invasive procedure, a vaccine.
Setting aside that you do in fact have the right to refuse getting vaccinated…
These two things are still not comparable. The freedom to swing your arms ends at someone else’s nose, so by refusing to get vaccinated and thereby making yourself a greater risk to others, the rest of us have a legitimate right to ensure your exposure to others is limited.
There is nothing like this when it comes to abortion. The issue there is whether the fetus has a greater right to the mother’s body than the mother. That’s a debate for another thread, but it’s an entirely different conversation.
‘My body my choice’ therefore only applies to the latter, so those who have who have tried to weaponize this talking point against vaccines but don’t support it against abortion are not only breathtakingly hypocritical, but are also just wrong factually and self defeating philosophically.
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@Greyparrot
The optics on this are so, so bad on multiple levels, most particularly undermining the year long claim that being vaccinated was supposed to keep you safe and now Biden is saying the unvaccinated are putting vaccinated people at risk.
The optics on this are only bad to those who are unwilling or unable to understand the full picture. Two things can be true at the same time, it’s called nuance.
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@Double_R
understand the full picture.
So which is it? Does the vaccine keep you safe or no?
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@Ramshutu
COVID has a much lower mutation rate than flu; this is why vaccines are still mostly effective against delta, whereas it’s very doubtful whether a vaccine from one season will be effective on the second for flu.What COVID lacks in mutation rate, it makes up for in the sheer volume of people being infected: if it’s 10x less mutable, but infects 10x as many people, the number of mutations is the same.
Curious as to where you got this impression. Coronaviruses and influenza have nucleotide substitution per site per annum numbers that fall within more or less overlapping ranges (0.80 to ~2.5 × 10^-3). Even the outlier flue strains typically don't rise above 3.5 x 10^-3. It's the very fact that both are quickly mutating RNA viruses which makes the idea of zero covid/flu or vaccination-as-a-silver-bullet unserious goals.
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@Double_R
The issue there is whether the fetus has a greater right to the mother’s body than the mother.
That kind of argument is the notion that the fetus is a parasite - nonsense. A woman's natural features include the pre-natal nurturing of fetal development, so, the entire concept of "right" never enters the room. In the case of rape, which can include incest - and that accounts for little more than 1% of all pregnancies - there may be an argument, but, otherwise, when mutual consent is involved, the woman has already passed beyond a decision of use of her body.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
Per annum...
Flu mutates faster per cell infection; covid mutates faster per year - right now - because it’s infecting so many people.
That’s my point: a big benefit to the drive for vaccination is to reduce that mutation rate. Obviously, theres issues of long covid, hospitalizations, etc - and just the economic impacts of a bunch of people being sick, but a key factor is driving down the potential for mutants.
In the last year and a half, there have been a number of variants that are able to partially overcome vaccine immunity, after all.
The best case scenario, is that we lower infection rates, improve vaccinations, the vaccine continues to be updated to be more inline with circling variants, and with our built up immune response, we have a 20k-30k death covid season, which is likely manageable.
The worst case - as covid appears way more transmissible than the flu (covid mitigation basically eliminated last years flu season, whilst Covid still killed hundreds of thousands) - is that high mutation rates variant more effectively evades our vaccine response; spreads to the vaccinated, then mutates again to drop effectiveness against severe disease to, say 50% vs 94% for the current vaccine/immunity. The us gets another 150-200k deaths.
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@n8nrgmi
It's not illegal - there is precedent. Eg. Seatbelts in our vehicles.
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@n8nrgmi
There is no point in having a Constitution if politicians get to decide when they do or do not have to obey it. If it is acceptable to you for the President to violate one part of the Constitution, then it is the President who is the law of the land. You can no longer appeal to the Constitution for any guaranteed rights because it is ultimately the President who decides when those rights are valid based on "public safety."
Let us not so quickly forget cases like Korematsu v. United States that were deemed necessary for public safety. It may have seemed prudent at the time, but I hardly think you want to live in a country where unconstitutional decisions like these can be made, even if they are based on precedent.
If you truly believe the President's decision is unconstitutional - even if you perceive the threat to be great - you should be fiercely opposed to such a decision. Otherwise, you are appealing to tyranny for the imposition of policies upon the American people. Tyranny is not a weapon that can be controlled by the people, but many will only realize this after it is too late.
Let us not so quickly forget cases like Korematsu v. United States that were deemed necessary for public safety. It may have seemed prudent at the time, but I hardly think you want to live in a country where unconstitutional decisions like these can be made, even if they are based on precedent.
If you truly believe the President's decision is unconstitutional - even if you perceive the threat to be great - you should be fiercely opposed to such a decision. Otherwise, you are appealing to tyranny for the imposition of policies upon the American people. Tyranny is not a weapon that can be controlled by the people, but many will only realize this after it is too late.