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@ludofl3x
Really, you don't know about the photographer and baker.
Theory about conservatives
Posts
Total:
123
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@Greyparrot
@sadolite
@ludofl3x
@Dr.Franklin
@Double_R
It amazes me that we seem to be seeing opposite things looking at the same reality.
When I look at videos of Jan 6th at the capitol, I see people solemly singing the national anthem, taking selfies with capitol officers, and having doors held open for elderly ladies.
Liberals seem to see officers being mailed, windows being broken, and somehow, the "intention" of the demonstrators to "overthrow" the government.
The unbiased facts? Not a single officer was seriously harmed. Not a single officer died. No one has been charged with insurrection or rebellion. Nancy Pelosi instructed the capitol police to stand down. It was actually Trump who asked for them.
Unlike Antifa/BLM, the capitol demonstrators did not hide their identities. They did not set fire to the building, they did not assault bystanders.
What does the country do when roughly half of it's population does not see the reality right before their eyes? Biden said, ON TV, that a capitol officer was killed during the demonstration. Is he lying or does he really believe that?
Almost any liberal will tell you that most of the hate is coming from conservatives. I wonder what goes through their minds as they watch Antifa/BLM assault random people on the streets?
Where is this wave of white supremacists killing Anericans? But Biden gets ON TV and claims that is America's #1 threat. The hundreds of black youth being slaughtered in major cities forgotten.
The liberal sees the Kavanaugh hearings and cannot see the fascist horror of condemning a man on a single allegation. Conservatives can actually hear the brownshirts trying to enter the room.
We actually see two realities.
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@ethang5
very correct mr ethang
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@ethang5
As we all know, many of those protesters were chanting “let’s hang with Mike Pence”.
But the Ministry of Truth line aside - your admission is pretty revealing.
I mean - if a group of people believe they have no political power and have are currently being systematically oppressed with individuals in power using their levers of power to maintain those systems of oppression - that sounds like something big enough and severe enough to want to riot about. I don’t agree with rioting - just to say I have no doubt that they believe what they’re saying.
Contrast for a moment, with the right. Apparently, there was a massive - Successful - effort to rig an election, which involve the courts, and multiple states, and usurped the democratic will of the people, your democracy was stolen, and people who literally want to destroy the country and take away all of your rights have taken over.
Don’t know about you, but going to a few rally’s, writing strongly worded Facebook posts, and a handful of people breaking into the capitol then going home; loudly declaring they will fix the complete loss of your democracy in 4 years when you get to vote for president again - doesn’t strike me as the coherent actions or behaviour of people who has even started to believe what they’re saying
I don’t say this lightly, but if Trump had been successful and a legitimate election was overturned through partisan chicanery - a lot of people would have ended up dying: because that’s what tends happen when elections are actually stolen.
I don’t know how you guys do it - it must be so tiring to be defending things constantly that you know deep down you don’t even beleive.
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@ethang5
When I look at videos of Jan 6th at the capitol, I see people solemly singing the national anthem, taking selfies with capitol officers, and having doors held open for elderly ladies.Liberals seem to see officers being mailed, windows being broken, and somehow, the "intention" of the demonstrators to "overthrow" the government.
140 police officers were injured on Jan 6th. There is video footage of officers being beaten by the mob with a hockey stick and flag poles, as well as audio recordings of police officers being maced as they fought the crowd, among other examples.
Footage also includes the US Capitol being breached by individuals breaking the windows and climbing in while outnumbered officers retreat. Chants by the mob to hang the Vice President, and footage of the mob within feet of congress as they were forced to evacuate the building in the middle of verifying the results of a US election.
Every single single thing I just mentioned are indisputable facts. This happened, and any individual with an internet connection who decides they would like to see it has full access to it.
Yet despite all of this, your “view” of what happened that day is people singing the national anthem and taking selfies with police officers. The problem is not that we see different realities, the difference between us is in what parts of reality we choose to disregard.
What is remarkable here is just how simple this really is. If this had happened in any other country you would not disregard what you are here. If that was Antifa or BLM breaking into the US Capitol while congress votes to certify Donald Trump as the winner of the election, your “view” would be a complete 180 from what you profess now.
To claim that the thousands who were a part of this do not represent the greater whole of the party would be a legitimate point to discuss, but to claim that it’s simply not what you see when you look at the days events is absurd, nakedly hypocritical and transparently partisan. It’s not a claim to be taken seriously.
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@sadolite
THe photographer and the baker that were shut down by the government for not catering to gays? You post again:
You will be persecuted and your life destroyed by govt if you try to oppose it. Just ask anybody who owns a business who refused to cow tow.
So, no, I don't know about the government destroying the lives of small business owners over their refusal to serve gays. Can you link me to the story where again, THE GOVERNMENT, not their community, "persecuted" these businesses?
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@ludofl3x
Not catering to gay marriage. Both were asked to do so. The photographer did not want to photograph a gay marriage and the baker did not want to make a gay marriage wedding cake. They did not refuse service because they were gay.
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@sadolite
Right, I remember these stories...but I don't remember the part where the government persecuted them over it and destroyed their lives. Did that not happen to them?
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@ludofl3x
No, nothing ever happened, I am just making it up.
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@sadolite
I don't think you're making it up, I just don't remember a government action against those businesses, certainly not one aimed at destroying their lives specifically. It might surprise you but I actually supported those businesses and their right to serve whoever they want, or refuse that service...just as much as I support their community members who then loudly tell whoever is within earshot that the people running those businesses are bigots, and if you don't want to support bigotry, there are plenty of bakery and photographer options. That's not the government.
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@ludofl3x
K then. Using the legal system to persecute people is not using govt or related to govt. Got it.
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@sadolite
No, it isn't, I'm afraid. Suing someone is the right of private citizens in cases like that. And it's not THE GOVERNMENT doing it, it's very, very, very loosely people using the tools that government has put into place to resolve matters. If you're not advocating using the legal system when you feel you've been wronged, what SHOULD the aggrieved do? And again, you're misrepresenting what your original statement was: you said the government persecutes these people and destroys their lives, I quoted it twice. It's okay to be wrong. THe government doesn't do anything to these people, their fellow citizens are vocal about their opinions.
Do you support professional athletes right to kneel during the national anthem at sporting events?
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@ludofl3x
Got it, using the legal system to force people to cow tow to your wants is not using the gun barrel of govt. And no, I don't support anything having to do with politics. Its all narratives. I reject all political narratives. They are opinions. Fuck all narratives. Govt policies are either doing what they are promised to do or they are not. I do not know of a single govt policy that is achieving anything remotely what it was promised to do. Not one. Govt will never do anything that will benefit me as a working taxpayer, not now not ever. The only thing govt could do that would benefit me as a taxpayer is nothing.
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@sadolite
Ever heard of “what gave the Romans ever done for us?”
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@Ramshutu
Look what they did to humanity, fucking destroyed it. That's the point, I have had all I can take of govt trying to do anything for me. Fucking stop, you are destroying the fucking country.
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@sadolite
@ludofl3x
Sadolite is correct.
The government took up both cases and lost. The officials in California were found by the court to have acted illegally and were said to have exhibited a religious bias against the defendant.
Both men lost money and suffered social ostricism. Both businesses have suffered. One has closed.
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@Ramshutu
@Double_R
we all know, many of those protesters were chanting “let’s hang with Mike Pence”.
Do you know why we dismiss this liberal charge? Because BLM/Antifa have been chanting, "Death to America/Kill the pigs" and burning flags for years. Yet for you, "Hang Mike Pence" is an "insurrection against America. We dismiss blatant hypocrisy.
I mean - if a group of people believe they have no political power and have are currently being systematically oppressed with individuals in power using their levers of power to maintain those systems of oppression - that sounds like something big enough and severe enough to want to riot about. I don’t agree with rioting - just to say I have no doubt that they believe what they’re saying.
I doubt. Such people do not loot innocent businesses, assault innocent bystanders on the streets, or burn down their own neighborhoods. You believe what they're saying because it fits your own narrative. Nothing more. That's why you excuse their lawlessness.
- doesn’t strike me as the coherent actions or behaviour of people who has even started to believe what they’re saying
And once again reality is judged by the credulity of the liberal, not by facts on the ground. It doesn't "strike" him as....
: because that’s what tends happen when elections are actually stolen.
That is what tends to happen in 3re world liberal hellholes, not America. When cartoons of the "prophet" Mohammed were published, people died in France, Pakistan, and other Muslim countries. No one died in America. When Rashdie's book, The Satanic Verses" came out, people died in several countries, including European ones. No one died in America.
Most Americans believe in and love democracy and are not willing to Chuck it just because some have and are, misuseing it.
I don’t know how you guys do it - it must be so tiring to be defending things constantly that you know deep down you don’t even beleive.
We simply don't dis-believe, "deep down" what you think we do. What is tiring is debating people who think they know what we believe "deep down" while being unable to acknowledge any reality that contradicts their political narrative.
140 police officers were injured on Jan 6th.
Your "injuries" include stubbed toes. Police officers were killed during the months of BLM/Antifa riots. Can you explain how hundreds of people, bent on insurrection and rebellion against the US, ready to "overthrow" the government did not kill a single officer? Or burn down the capitol?
Every single single thing I just mentioned are indisputable facts.
Not one of them means it was an "insurrection". You are attempting to place a spin on what happened.
The problem is not that we see different realities, the difference between us is in what parts of reality we choose to disregard.
What you chose to disregard is reality. Sorry, real facts in the ground do not agree with your perception, on Jan 6th or at the BLM/Antifa riots.
...is absurd, nakedly hypocritical and transparently partisan.
Discribes democrat liberals perfectly. And actual reality minus the spin bares that out.
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@ethang5
Do you know why we dismiss this liberal charge? Because BLM/Antifa have been chanting, "Death to America/Kill the pigs" and burning flags for years. Yet for you, "Hang Mike Pence" is an "insurrection against America. We dismiss blatant hypocrisy.
To be quite clear, the description of "I see people solemly singing the national anthem, taking selfies with capitol officers, and having doors held open for elderly ladies." does not match up with "protesters were chanting “let’s hang with Mike Pence”. You can dismiss anything you like, but until you actually address this discrepancy instead of conjuring up an excuse, you are a dishonest partisan hack.
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@dustryder
Address the things I saw in the videos I mentioned. Those things do not agree with "insurrections" and "rebellions". Do you deny that no weapons were brought to the capitol on Jan 6th? Do you deny that protestors were let into the building? Do you deny that the atmosphere inside the capitol was mostly jovial and festive? Do you deny that Pelosi denied Trump's request for additional capitol police? Do you deny that not a single arrested person has been charged with rebellion or insurrection?
The only dishonest partisan hack here is you.
Which branch of "the government" was responsible for taking up the cases? And if "the government" lost both cases, I guess I don't see how they were harmed by "the government" since by definition, the baker and the photographer prevailed in court. Which again, I support, they have their right to refuse service, which is what the courts upheld.
Both men lost money and suffered social ostricism
Social ostricism is not a penalty applied by either the law or the government. It's applied by society.
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@ethang5
I don't need to address anything. I haven't made any claims, you have. And when confronted with a contradiction to that claim, you deflect. When you get called out for deflecting, you deflect again.
Hence dishonest partisan hack
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@ludofl3x
Face palm. Do you even know what the judicial branch of govt does and what it is for?
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@ethang5
You wrote a whole post about how the left and right look at the same thing and see opposite realities, using Jan 6th as your prime example. The question is, why?
When I pointed out to you that 140 officers were injured you immediately leapt to stubbed toes, completely ignoring the officer who lost a finger, another who lost consciousness after being shoved into a wall, plus multiple officers who suffered concussions and rib fractures. Why?
When I reference the dozens of videos showing the mob forcing their way through the police barriers, smashing windows and climbing in, outnumbered officers retreating from their posts guarding the US Capitol, you ignore all of that to point to the selfies they took. Why?
You made your answer obvious; because you think hypocrisy is fine as long as you can concoct it within the other side.
You claim that conservatives dismiss this occurrence because the left doesn’t seem to care about Antifa/BLM. In other words, you’re justified in your hypocrisy as long as the other side does it too.
When it was pointed out to you that the mob you described as festive roamed the halls of the Capitol chanting “hang Mike pence” you dismiss it as a liberal charge. No, it’s an empirical verifiable fact.
The problem for you is that you’re not having a conversation with anyone here, you made that clear by asking myself and multiple others to justify Antifa/BLM riots or explain how Jan 6th was an insurrection. As far as I am aware no one in this thread made those claims, I certainly haven’t. You’re just engaging in a talking point tit-for-tat.
If you want to have a conversation about the BLM riots I’d be happy to give you my perspective, but not until you can either justify your own hypocrisy and blatant willingness to ignore what happened on Jan 6th, or just admit that what we are saying is perfectly valid.
Do you believe the US Capitol must be protected, and anyone who busts through Capitol police barriers injuring officers along the way must be held accountable?
Do you think it’s ok for Congress to have to evacuate the building in the middle of certifying an election to get away from a mob of trespassers?
Everyone reading this thread knows what your answers would be of the roles were reversed. The question is, do you?
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@sadolite
Yes, and it ound in FAVOR of the people who were refusing service. How is that being used AGAINST those people? Also, the judiciary branch didn't bring the case on its own. Civil cases are initiated by private citizens, not by the government.
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@dustryder
I don't need to address anything. I haven't made any claims, you have.
So let's go to the tape. You said....
To be quite clear, the description of "I see people solemly singing the national anthem, taking selfies with capitol officers, and having doors held open for elderly ladies." does not match up with "protesters were chanting “let’s hang with Mike Pence”. You can dismiss anything you like, but until you actually address this discrepancy instead of conjuring up an excuse, you are a dishonest partisan hack.
You are claiming that there is a discrepancy, right? You say people were chanting, "“let’s hang with Mike Pence”. I'm saying people were friendly and festive. I have video to support my claim. My claim refutes your implication that the crowd was violent and rebellious.
What you want is for me to see ONLY your claim, and then interpret it the loony democratic way. They were angry at Pence yes, but that doesn't mean any of your claim is true.
They still took no weapons. No officer was killed. The building was not torched, and Pelosi did refuse to send in the capitol police. Sorry dusty, the partisan hack is you.
And when confronted with a contradiction to that claim, you deflect.
What was the contradiction? Which of my claims did you contradict?
When you get called out for deflecting, you deflect again.
No matter how long it takes you, you will have to accept that your perception is not reality.
Hence dishonest partisan hack
The FBI found that there was no insurrection or rebellion. No one has been charged with insurrection or rebellion. The facts on the ground call you a partisan hack.
I reject your hypocrasy.
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@Double_R
You made your answer obvious; because you think hypocrisy is fine as long as you can concoct it within the other side.
I will never allow a thief to charge me with theft. The left loves doing that. I don't want to hear your hypocritical views about Jan 6th while cities and federal buildings are still smoldering and business are still shut.
Why?
Because you were deceptively trying to use your "facts" to support a false narrative. I will not allow that. The only person who died was a Trump supporter illegally shot by a capitol officer.
You claim that conservatives dismiss this occurrence because the left doesn’t seem to care about Antifa/BLM. In other words, you’re justified in your hypocrisy as long as long as the other side does it too.
Those "other words" are yours. Please do not try to saddle me with them. If the multiple officers murdered during the Antifa/BLM riots didn't bother you, why should I listen to you about an officer hurting his finger?? Hypocrasy like that makes me sick.
You ignored my questions to you in my post, you get the same treatment here. Understand liberals, no one is here to be grilled by you as you ignore their questions.
Everyone reading this thread knows what your answers would be of the roles were reversed. The question is, do you?
You mean every liberal here reading this thread assumes he knows what my answers would be of the roles were reversed.
Not only do liberals assume, but they are ready to convict the conservative on just their assumption. Ethan doesn't allow that.
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@ethang5
To be clear, there is no implication from my end that the crowd was violent and rebellious and that is not a claim I have made. The only claim here is that people were chanting "hang mike pence". Now obviously, this is just an expression of free speech and an element of a protest. However, one is hardly "friendly and festive" if one is chanting for the lynching of someone, which is a contradiction.
Also the fact that video footage of protesters chanting "hang mike pence" being readily available from the first page of a google search also indicates that you are, again, a dishonest partisan hack.
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@ludofl3x
You know nothing about either case. They were not refusing service, they were refusing to be at a gay wedding and make gay marriage depictions.
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@sadolite
So the photographer refused to be at a gay wedding, and the baker refused to make something depicting gay marriage (not sure what that would entail but okay)....so how is that different than "refusing service"? And again, it wasn't the UNITED STATES Vs these merchants. It was private citizens.
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@ethang5
I will never allow a thief to charge me with theft. The left loves doing that. I don't want to hear your hypocritical views about Jan 6th while cities and federal buildings are still smoldering and business are still shut.
My views are irrelevant to the validity of yours. Again, you stated and are still defending the view you hold that January 6th was about Trump protesters taking selfies with police officers as they held the doors to the US Capitol open for them. I’m just trying to get you to explain why despite all of the other far more objectionable things that took place is you’re only answer “but the left…”
This is the exact same hypocrisy you alleged about the left, making your entire position incoherent. You’re decrying the left for the same thing you are actively doing.
And not for nothing, but read your own statement again. First you start by telling me why you won’t share your views, then move on to telling me why you don’t want to hear mine. So what are you doing here?
Because you were deceptively trying to use your "facts" to support a false narrative. I will not allow that. The only person who died was a Trump supporter illegally shot by a capitol officer.
First, can you please recite one fact I provided that wasn’t true? If you can’t, can you please explain why you put the word “fact” in scare quotes?
Second, I never painted anything, I was very careful not to say anything that wasn’t empirically verifiable. The facts painted their own narrative, and the demonstration of that is the fact that you already had the narrative in your head to make this claim.
Setting aside officer Sicknick, who the blue lives matter crowd couldn’t care less about, the only person directly killed in the attacks was a Trump supporter. Another question for you that you won’t answer is; why do you disregard the context surrounding that incident? Again I ask, should Congress be protected from a mob of trespassers while they are in session? If that mob breaches protected space, what should be done about it? It never ceases to amaze me how Trump supporters hold up Ashli Babbit’s death as an argument while ignoring the reason she died in the first place.
You ignored my questions to you in my post, you get the same treatment here. Understand liberals, no one is here to be grilled by you as you ignore their questions.
The questions I did not answer in your last post were ignored because they were all irrelevant to our conversation and based on a complete strawman. You asked me how January 6th was an insurrection, I never claimed it was. In fact I’ve never made that claim anywhere, ever. This is where the part of my post comes in where I talked about the fact that you are not trying to have a conversation. I really don’t know why you bother at all, or why I continue to waste my fingers.
Once again, you wrote an entire post about how you see Jan 6th as selfies and door holding. Are you ever going to defend that view, or are you just going to keep attacking your own concoction of what the political left is about? Because if that’s the case, then I’m literally talking to the wall.
On a positive note, I will say that this conversation should give you all that you need to answer your original question: why do we look at the same thing and see something entirely different?
The answer: because we’re not actually looking at the same thing. Every single time I’ve asked you about what the Trump mob did that day literally all you have to say is “the left”. You’ve even defended why you do that. So this is why you’re not seeing it, because your head is turned and you’ve managed to convince yourself that reality aligns with whatever side you chose to look at. And then from there, it appears you’ve projected that same attitude onto the other side, thereby justifying your own refusal to look. Well, what happened that day is there for you to see, just let me know when you are willing to turn your head.