Should saying something pro life be classified as "mysoginist hate speech towards women"?

Author: TheUnderdog

Posts

Total: 51
Fruit_Inspector
Fruit_Inspector's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 855
3
4
7
Fruit_Inspector's avatar
Fruit_Inspector
3
4
7
-->
@oromagi
The first result when searching "social justice definition" into Google is:

  • justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society.
This is also the typical meaning among proponents of social justice. Do you disagree with this definition?
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Fruit_Inspector
-->@oromagi
The first result when searching "social justice definition" into Google is:

  • justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society.
This is also the typical meaning among proponents of social justice. Do you disagree with this definition?
Well,  we know that "distribution of wealth" is a trigger phrase for Republicans but to the extent that fair and reasonable wages, equal pay for equal work, equal civil opportunities for equal capabilities, equal civil privileges for equal citizenship, fair and reasonable labor practices, etc are consistent with promoting justice at the community level, I guess I don't see a discrepancy.  If you are kneejerking that social justice must mean Socialist then I'm not interested.

And again, my definition of social justice is non-sequitur to Alec's topic.  Alec should define the subject of his thesis for himself.
drlebronski
drlebronski's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 993
3
5
9
drlebronski's avatar
drlebronski
3
5
9
-->
@oromagi
whos alec?
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@drlebronski
TheUnderdog, it is just faster to type his old username, Alec.  


Plus, that's just the way I think of him.  When he was Alec, TheUnderdog overtook RM to become number one on the leaderboards.
Fruit_Inspector
Fruit_Inspector's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 855
3
4
7
Fruit_Inspector's avatar
Fruit_Inspector
3
4
7
-->
@oromagi
I wouldn't be so cavalier in defining social justice as to equate it with Socialism. But your understanding of the phrase is important when considered in the context of your question from post #3:
Why would any good citizen be against social justice?
I think you would agree how one defines social justice is crucial in being able to answer this question. It is also important because you seem to be using the phrase inconsistently, but that is yet to be determined.

There are two distinct features of social justice, at least as it is most commonly understood, that would be helpful to clarify.

First, social justice aims for equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.

Second, based on phrasing such as "community level" justice, I assume you would agree that social justice focuses on groups (such as race or gender) rather than focusing on individuals. That would mean that a focus on equality of outcomes is based on group outcomes, not individual ones.

Injustice can be identified as disparities that exist between groups. When a disparity is found, justice demands we redistribute wealth/privilege/opportunity from the advantaged group to the disadvantaged group.

Have I misrepresented your understanding of social justice?
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@oromagi
Before I address your insubstantial response, it should be noted that you conceded the fact:

- That your initial argument against the OP was a strawman (despite you calling it a strawman lol)
- You're a massive hypocrite who whines about being called SJW because it's a "term of denigration", yet readily use terms like "white supremacist" which is also a term of denigration

- That you readily engaged in Ad Hominem (logical fallacy) to attack people involved in the argument, rather than the argument itself (that groypers have shown some "conservatives" to be grifters, including Ben Shapiro)
- You're still a massive hypocrite who whines about being called SJW because it's a "term of denigration", yet you're fine with calling Nick Fuentes "The 18 year old pimply faced incel cunt" (which, if we're extremely generous, might be slightly construed as terms of denigration)

Now that we've got your concessions out of the way, we can address the rest of what you wrote:

My point had nothing to do with who Nick Fuentes is.
Your point wasn't addressed to me or to this topic.  You were addressing conservatives and appealing for further radicalization.  FOX News, Ben Shapiro, Donald Trump- they are now the RINO left and will be purged when the great storm comes.  All of which seems pretty non-sequitur.

You invited us (and me particularly) to say what we want about little boys who hate so much they drop out of school and try to kill their country.  So I did.
Yes, my point wasn't addressed to you.

Your framing of "further radicalization" is a bare assertion and should be dismissed as the logical fallacy it is. Furthermore, I never argued "they are now the RINO left and will be purged when the great storm comes" LOL xD. That's purely your strawman of my position and is the 2nd time you've built an egregious strawman in this thread. 

I said was that Groypers exposed Ben Shapiro as a grifter, Fox News doesn't do anything to push conservative policy, and I never said anything about Trump lol. I also said you should stop supporting these grifter types . That was all. Should saying something pro life be classified as "mysoginist hate speech towards women"? (debateart.com) The fact that you built such an egregious strawman out of that exposes you as horrendously bad faith and frankly just an easily proved liar.

Your final two sentences are purely Ad Hominem and completely worthless to the point I made. The point I made was that Groypers exposed "conservatives" like Ben Shapiro and Matt Walsh as grifters. It doesn't matter at all who Nick Fuentes is, relative to the point I made. But I know SJWs like you are so bent out of shape so easily that you couldn't resist Ad Homming Nick, despite me predicting that you would and telling you why that would be illogical to do so Should saying something pro life be classified as "mysoginist hate speech towards women"? (debateart.com) .
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,696
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
-->
@Fruit_Inspector
-->@oromagi
I wouldn't be so cavalier in defining social justice as to equate it with Socialism. But your understanding of the phrase is important when considered in the context of your question from post #3:
Why would any good citizen be against social justice?
I think you would agree how one defines social justice is crucial in being able to answer this question. It is also important because you seem to be using the phrase inconsistently, but that is yet to be determined.

There are two distinct features of social justice, at least as it is most commonly understood, that would be helpful to clarify.

First, social justice aims for equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.
  • I don't accept rather than.  Justice wants improvement in both.  I don't see how you get to more equal outcomes in a fair and reasonable way without improving equality of opportunity.  I've never seen a social justice movement that did not want better equality of opportunity.  How can one evaluate improvements in the equality of opportunity without at least considering improvements in outcomes?  The Temperance movement sought Prohibition as a matter of social justice but there were no equalities of outcome or opportunity implied.
  • I think you are defining the term too narrowly.
Second, based on phrasing such as "community level" justice, I assume you would agree that social justice focuses on groups (such as race or gender) rather than focusing on individuals. That would mean that a focus on equality of outcomes is based on group outcomes, not individual ones.
  • No.  I think of communities as a mix of race, gender, and many other groups.  It might be nice to strive for communities that are more alike in opportunities and outcomes but to enforce equality would not be fair or reasonable and therefore not just.
Injustice can be identified as disparities that exist between groups.  When a disparity is found, justice demands we redistribute wealth/privilege/opportunity from the advantaged group to the disadvantaged group.
  • When has this ever been true anywhere ever?  This sounds very like the Fox News Strawman  Socialist and unlike any social justice movement I've ever heard of.
Have I misrepresented your understanding of social justice?
Yes

Fruit_Inspector
Fruit_Inspector's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 855
3
4
7
Fruit_Inspector's avatar
Fruit_Inspector
3
4
7
-->
@oromagi
First, social justice aims for equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.
I don't accept rather than. Justice wants improvement in both. I don't see how you get to more equal outcomes in a fair and reasonable way without improving equality of opportunity.
To clarify, I meant that social justice aims for equality of outcome as an end goal. You can seek to  improve opportunities without seeking equality of opportunities. Unless you believe that both equality of opportunity and equality of outcome are achievable end goals, social justice cannot aim for both as a result.

No. I think of communities as a mix of race, gender, and many other groups.
Right. And social justice focuses on equality of outcome between those groups. This is the basis of issues like the gender pay gap - equitable outcomes between various groups. If men make more money than women as a group (a disparity), that is viewed as injustice.

It might be nice to strive for communities that are more alike in opportunities and outcomes but to enforce equality would not be fair or reasonable and therefore not just.
You may have to clarify your definition of equality.

When has this ever been true anywhere ever?  This sounds very like the Fox News Strawman  Socialist and unlike any social justice movement I've ever heard of.
Socialism is essentially an economic strategy that involves a total redistribution of resources. Social justice involves the equitable "distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society." So redistribution is not mainly about economic strategies, but equalizing power dynamics in society.
Here is a prominent example of this redistribution that is worth the lengthy quotation to see the use of social justice language (italicized), from New California law mandates racial diversity on corporate boards (usatoday.com):

California Gov. Gavin Newsom signed a law requiring publicly traded corporations headquartered in California to appoint directors from underrepresented communities to their boards, the first law in the country to dictate the racial makeup of corporate boards.
...
“When we talk about racial justice, we talk about power and needing to have seats at the table,” the governor said during a press conference on Wednesday.
...
“The new law represents a big step forward for racial equity,” one of the bill’s authors Assemblyman Chris Holden, a Democrat from Pasadena, said in a statement. “While some corporations were already leading the way to combat implicit bias, now, all of California’s corporate boards will better reflect the diversity of our state.

Holden says research shows that public support for social justice often does not lead to lasting reforms needed to boost hiring and retention.
...
In 2022, boards with four to nine people must have at least two members from an underrepresented community and boards with nine or more people must have at least three. Companies that don’t comply could face stiff fines.

Underrepresented communities are defined as people who identify as Black, Latino, Native American, Asian American, Pacific Islander, Native Hawaiian, or Alaska Natives.

The article goes on to cite racial disparities among company executives and board members. And the purpose of the new law was to address those disparities, and to redistribute power in the form of board membership positions from the advantaged group (whites) to disadvantaged groups (non-white). This is racial equity and the enforcement of equality of outcomes.

This is also not a Socialist strawman from Fox News. This is straight from the Governor of California. It is a redistribution of power to achieve "justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society" (i.e. social justice).


Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Fruit_Inspector
Don't expect hypocrisy to stop the Left from their crusade to topple Western civilization.
Could you please explain what “topple western civilization” means?
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
-->
@Polytheist-Witch
I don't believe in banning any speech unless it would cause immediate harm like yelling fire in a crowded theater. I do however do not think they should be able to block access to a clinic or intimidate people going into a clinic. That is actually trying to restrict or intimidate people from seeking a service that is legal. 
The problem is that when these far-left extremists get into power, they don't afford you the same free speech rights. Talking badly about their ideologies becomes illegal 'hate speech'. Saying that it's annoying that your workmates talk in a different language you don't understand is 'racist' and you need to lose your job. Verbally berating White people for the color of their skin is fine, but if you disagree with that and you're White and you need to check your 'White privilege'.

Your notion absolutely works and is the best for a majority White nation, because such a nation isn't hampered by identity politics and can actually discuss real issues.

Fruit_Inspector
Fruit_Inspector's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 855
3
4
7
Fruit_Inspector's avatar
Fruit_Inspector
3
4
7
-->
@Double_R
Could you please explain what “topple western civilization” means?
The political philosophy and moral values of the West (albeit a somewhat vague term) that America was founded upon are in the process of being deconstructed and dismantled. Things like individual liberty and inalienable rights would be included in "Western civilization." This dismantling is paving the way for a collectivist totalitarianism.
drlebronski
drlebronski's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 993
3
5
9
drlebronski's avatar
drlebronski
3
5
9

Your notion absolutely works and is the best for a majority White nation
.-. dude
Mesmer
Mesmer's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 516
3
2
4
Mesmer's avatar
Mesmer
3
2
4
Your notion absolutely works and is the best for a majority White nation
.-. dude
If you want to be taken seriously, you need to explain why you disagree, rather than engage in virtue-signaling posturing.


Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Fruit_Inspector
Things like individual liberty and inalienable rights would be included in "Western civilization."
Thanks for that. Now can you explain how individual liberty at risk of being toppled?
Fruit_Inspector
Fruit_Inspector's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 855
3
4
7
Fruit_Inspector's avatar
Fruit_Inspector
3
4
7
-->
@Double_R
Thanks for that. Now can you explain how individual liberty at risk of being toppled?
Totalitarianism and individual liberty are incompatible.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Fruit_Inspector
You’re using big words but saying nothing. You responded to a post attacking the left mostly by straw manning it to suggest that it believes among other things that opposing same sex marriage is hate speech, and your response was to imply that this somehow fits into a greater plan to topple our civilization. Can you please explain that in more than one sentence?
drlebronski
drlebronski's avatar
Debates: 14
Posts: 993
3
5
9
drlebronski's avatar
drlebronski
3
5
9
-->
@Fruit_Inspector
Totalitarianism and individual liberty are incompatible.
dude this is what you do most times i argue with you especially on systemic racism you either pivot to something else (i.e. critical race theory)
or you call totalitarian marxism (i.e. CRT or any narrative pushed by the left you don't agree with) rather than attacking the point.
Fruit_Inspector
Fruit_Inspector's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 855
3
4
7
Fruit_Inspector's avatar
Fruit_Inspector
3
4
7
-->
@drlebronski
dude this is what you do most times i argue with you especially on systemic racism you either pivot to something else (i.e. critical race theory)
or you call totalitarian marxism (i.e. CRT or any narrative pushed by the left you don't agree with) rather than attacking the point.
What did I pivot from, and what did I pivot to? I was asked a specific question to which I responded with a specific answer.
Fruit_Inspector
Fruit_Inspector's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 855
3
4
7
Fruit_Inspector's avatar
Fruit_Inspector
3
4
7
-->
@Double_R
You’re using big words but saying nothing.
I answered your questions exactly as you asked them. I can use smaller words if you would like.


You responded to a post attacking the left mostly by straw manning it to suggest that it believes among other things that opposing same sex marriage is hate speech, and your response was to imply that this somehow fits into a greater plan to topple our civilization.
My original intent was only to make a comment about the willingness of the Left to engage in hypocrisy in order to fulfill their goals, not to expound upon the current revolution happening in our society.


Can you please explain that in more than one sentence?
I already used three sentences to explain it:
  • The political philosophy and moral values of the West (albeit a somewhat vague term) that America was founded upon are in the process of being deconstructed and dismantled. Things like individual liberty and inalienable rights would be included in "Western civilization." This dismantling is paving the way for a collectivist totalitarianism.
I used each word intentionally to convey my point. Sometimes big words are the best choice to accomplish this. If you don't like my answers, perhaps you need to ask different questions.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Fruit_Inspector
My original intent was only to make a comment about the willingness of the Left to engage in hypocrisy in order to fulfill their goals, not to expound upon the current revolution happening in our society.
So the left is filled with hypocrisy. Got it. Thank you for finally making that clear as opposed to talking about the toppling western civilization and totalitarianism.

Fruit_Inspector
Fruit_Inspector's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 855
3
4
7
Fruit_Inspector's avatar
Fruit_Inspector
3
4
7
-->
@Double_R
So the left is filled with hypocrisy. Got it. Thank you for finally making that clear as opposed to talking about the toppling western civilization and totalitarianism.
This was my original comment:
  • Don't expect hypocrisy to stop the Left from their crusade to topple Western civilization.
It should have been abundantly clear from the beginning that I was criticizing a willingness to use hypocrisy. This is different from being filled with hypocrisy. I am unsure then where the confusion was. Should I try to reiterate my point with smaller words?

But here were your questions following that clear statement:
  • Could you please explain what “topple western civilization” means?
  • Now can you explain how individual liberty at risk of being toppled?
To then turn around and criticize me for talking about the toppling of western civilization after specifically asking about what I meant by "topple Western civilization" is an interesting approach in your rhetoric.