Public Trust and COVID-19

Author: Nyxified

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Before I say anything, I want to say that the COVID-19 vaccines are effective, side effects from them are either mild or rare, and that, even if the Delta variant has a 20-50% breakthrough rate, vaccines still do prevent hospitalization and death most of the time. The majority of new cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are from the unvaccinated and you should absolutely get vaccinated.

Moving on, I think that, while we've seen that public trust in the government and medical professionals has been incredibly high during the pandemic, while I have no idea what the trust is like now, my trust has decreased if anything. While there's no conspiracy theory to try and microchip me (none of us on this site are important enough to be microchipped), the government has been h a s t y, to put it lightly.

In Canada where I live, we have had three waves and are on the way for a fourth if current trends continue. There was a time in June or July of 2020 where cases were down to as little as under a dozen a day, and it's thanks to the rush to reopen, the inability to properly ensure the virus did not begin exponentially spreading again that caused us to not only have a second wave, but a third, and maybe even a fourth. This all happens despite the fact that New Zealand seemed to be perfectly weathering the storm. Our government failed us in not ending this in July of 2020, and the blood of my countrymen is on the hands of those who prioritize the economy and their performance at the polls over the lives of their constituents.

We have constantly been told over and over and over that the vaccine is 100% safe and effective even as potential side effects were causing us to pause the usage of certain vaccines entirely at the same time. I understand the need to reassure the public, and I agree that the vaccine is safe, but the messaging around things like this reeks of failing to acknowledge genuine risks or symptoms because of the fear of vaccine hesitancy. Yes, it's necessary to combat vaccine hesitancy, but not at the cost of objectivity. Despite the fact I was 100% convinced the vaccine was safe when it came out, the response to the rare and dangerous side effects managed to make me less confident if anything. The only time I have ever been hesitant to get the vaccine was at moments where they were most insisting that it was safe. I have heart issues and I am young, which puts me at risk in some ways to some of these side effects, and it felt like the government was choosing to just ignore it because they were so desperate to reopen.

Journalists and doctors dismissed the Lab Leak Theory from the Wuhan Institute of Virology for months, saying it was naught more than a conspiracy theory and we had completely 100% for certain found that the cause was the Spillover Hypothesis beginning at the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan. Then, as soon as Trump leaves office, their tune changes to "Both are plausible explanations that we should explore." I understand that Trump is an aggressive liar and conspiracy theorist and his claims were promoting xenophobia, but it's the responsibility and moral obligation of science to look past its biases and to find the truth, and it absolutely failed here.

Every single damned politician who speaks about the pandemic talks about "getting life back to normal" and "reopening" and not saving human fucking lives. This is the third time that my country is reopening, and to be honest, I'm fucking sick of it. I don't care that I can't leave the house and do stuff I want to, I've always been a sedentary individual, but I am so tired of the prime minister or my premier pretending he gives a shit as he lifts restrictions and effectively sends people to die or deal with the lasting damage of COVID-19. The sheer ability for these people to disregard the very real threat to human life by failing to squash the pandemic just so they can try and reopen ASAP is not only despicable, but is also the very reason that it's taking us even longer to reopen.

There's no excuse for failing to implement contact tracing, refusing to mandate vaccinations in schools, refusing to stay in lockdown as long as it takes, etc... And, after all the months of public trust, seeing the sheer mismanagement, mixed messaging, and trying to ignore things that people don't want to hear to reopen as fast as possible, I feel as though my trust in the government and the medical establishment is at an all time low. All good will I had for the government and all belief I had that the government wouldn't dare willingly allow tens of thousands of deaths of my brothers and sisters has been squandered with the beginning of the fourth wave.
dfss9788
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The vaccines work. People who haven't gotten the vaccine by now have chosen to take the risk, and that's on them. We shouldn't have to abstain from driving simply because some people refuse to wear seat belts.
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@dfss9788
If 20% of the population were swerving aggressively every time they got on the road and nobody was doing anything to stop them, then we should abstain from driving. The issue with this analogy is that seat belts are a choice that help us stay safe regardless of the choices of others, whereas with the vaccine, the only thing that keeps us safe is everyone taking it.

Those who are allergic to the vaccine are hurt by the unvaccinated. Those who are vaccinated have a higher chance of having a breakthrough case due to the unvaccinated. Everyone has a higher chance of keeping the pandemic going forever the more that the virus spreads and mutates until the effectiveness of mRNA vaccines becomes slim to nil.

Nonetheless, even were this true, the deaths of millions as a result of failing to contain the pandemic to the first wave are still on the governments hands.
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@Nyxified
The issue with this analogy is that seat belts are a choice that help us stay safe regardless of the choices of others, whereas with the vaccine, the only thing that keeps us safe is everyone taking it.
That's not true. Our immune response to the vaccine keeps us safe. It's not 100%, but neither are seat belts.

Those who are allergic to the vaccine are hurt by the unvaccinated. Those who are vaccinated have a higher chance of having a breakthrough case due to the unvaccinated.
These numbers are small. Mortality rate for breakthrough COVID-19 infections is ~3 deaths per 100,000 vaccinated. Seasonal flu deaths is like ~15 deaths per 100,000 people.
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@dfss9788
The vaccines work.
Works toward what?

People who haven't gotten the vaccine by now have chosen to take the risk, and that's on them. We shouldn't have to abstain from driving simply because some people refuse to wear seat belts.
Well stated.



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@Nyxified
 Do we lock up the country because fat people can't keep their mouths free of food 24/7?

Globally, 90% of Covid deaths were from obese people.
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@dfss9788
You conveniently left out this part of what I said:

"Everyone has a higher chance of keeping the pandemic going forever the more that the virus spreads and mutates until the effectiveness of mRNA vaccines becomes slim to nil."
I'm prepared to concede that these numbers are small. Granted, just because they're 'small' doesn't really defeat my point and just because the death rate is very low doesn't imply that it doesn't possess the capacity to infect others and cause potentially life-long damage, but even if we ignore that, more cases inherently increases the likelihood of mutation and the chance that the virus becomes more resistant to vaccines, more transmissible, and more deadly.

"That's not true. Our immune response to the vaccine keeps us safe. It's not 100%, but neither are seat belts."
When I put on my seatbelt, the amount it keeps me safe is completely independent of other's choice to wear a seatbelt. For the reasons I just mentioned which you would concede to, even though you insist they're small, the amount that I am safe is dependent on the choice of others to be vaccinated.

What of children who have anti-vax parents? Those who can't get the vaccine yet? Those who work 3 jobs and can't afford a day off? We can't simply say "It's your fault you didn't get vaccinated lol. You took the risk" especially when, and I want to stress this, people who are vaccinated can still be infected and have life-long damage.
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@Athias
Why should I trust a government that won't publicly say being fat puts you at great risk of dying from Covid?
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Yes. Because death is the only possible consequence from COVID-19 and the 438,000 that make up the remaining 10% don't matter.

You're also assuming that obese people deserve to die, but okay, I guess.
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@Nyxified
Why should I trust a government that won't publicly say being fat puts you at great risk of dying from Covid?

Does the government want us to stay fat and dead?
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@Greyparrot
I'm not asking you to.
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@Nyxified
Good. then I officially don't trust the government, for my own safety.
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@Nyxified
The issue with this analogy is that seat belts are a choice that help us stay safe regardless of the choices of others, whereas with the vaccine, the only thing that keeps us safe is everyone taking it.
Categorically false. If you trust the information on the epidimicity of the virus, then the logical extension would render that one will never be safe from it--vaccination notwithstanding.
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@Greyparrot
Why should I trust a government that won't publicly say being fat puts you at great risk of dying from Covid?
I see your statement, and I raise you a: why would one trust a government at all?
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@Athias
Only 3 things are certain in this world.

Death, taxes, and viruses.
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@Athias
Correction:

In order to get the greatest result in terms of helping keep us safe from COVID-19, everyone who can be vaccinated must be vaccinated.

Even if vaccines can never totally keep us safe, the point I was trying to make still stands.
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@Athias
I see your statement, and I raise you a: why would one trust a government at all?
The point is, if one relied on the government solely for information, they would have no clue what their actual personal risk of death is relative to their weight.

Some people actually care about dying.
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@Greyparrot
Death, taxes, and viruses.
I acknowledge just two of those.

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@Nyxified
helping keep us safe from COVID-19

Unvaccinated people pose no risk to vaccinated people. None at all.
Vaccinated people cannot keep unvaccinated people safe.

Both groups can carry the virus and both groups can spread it.
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@Athias
Damn ok, you win.
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@Nyxified
In order to get the greatest result in terms of helping keep us safe from COVID-19, everyone who can be vaccinated must be vaccinated.
The epidimicity of this virus would suggest that everyone has been exposed. That is, if one hasn't succumbed to it, one has already developed a response to it. Hence, the vaccine serves little better than a placebo. Furthermore, the CDC has yet to receive information on its proposed two year trials on these vaccines which usually requires a period of 10-15 years. Only one year has passed (the trials began in July 2020.)

Anyone who tells you that you must be vaccinated is full of crap.


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@Greyparrot
See my above point about virus mutation.

Vaccinated people keep unvaccinated people safe by not catching COVID-19 and not giving it to them (at least some evidence would suggest. There is no consensus on if vaccinated people spread COVID-19 less)  or not letting it mutate.
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@Athias
A position such as this one is far beyond what I am prepared to engage with, as it blatantly ignores scientific evidence and insists that vaccines don't do anything.

I wish you all the best.
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@Athias
The likelihood that a person has not come into contact of Covid-19 at some time in the past 2 years is outrageously low.
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@Greyparrot
The point is, if one relied on the government solely for information, they would have no clue what their actual personal risk of death is relative to their weight.

Some people actually care about dying.
So then it would be prudent to investigate the reasons that the government has withheld a public statement on this issue in spite of their having the information available. The government has either omitted information or outright lied as it concerns this pandemic, so it should come as no surprise.

Damn ok, you win.
Recruiting another in the rejection of government--or at the very least, taxes--means that we all win.
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@Nyxified
A position such as this one is far beyond what I am prepared to engage with, as it blatantly ignores scientific evidence and insists that vaccines don't do anything.
That would suggest that I'm ignoring scientific evidence; which evidence am I ignoring? Vaccines don't fight viruses. One's immune system fights off viruses. At best, vaccines can raise antibody count as a response to a weakened version of this virus, or in the case of these mRNA vaccines, "teaching" cells to develop covid spike proteins in order to raise the antibody count. (Note, long term effects of these mRNA have yet to be delineated much less ascertained.)

I wish you all the best.
Your call.
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@Nyxified
Vaccinated people keep unvaccinated people safe by not catching COVID-19 and not giving it to them (at least some evidence would suggest. There is no consensus on if vaccinated people spread COVID-19 less)  or not letting it mutate.

Most current evidence indicates the opposite.
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@Greyparrot
The likelihood that a person has not come into contact of Covid-19 at some time in the past 2 years is outrageously low.
Exactly. And the prospects that one has been exposed to this virus but has yet to develop an immune response in almost two years is also outrageous.
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@Greyparrot

Again, I don't mean to say this is fact.
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@Athias
Exactly. And the prospects that one has been exposed to this virus but has yet to develop an immune response in almost two years is also outrageous.
The underlying assumption for why we are currently on day 520 of "slowing the spread" is that there exists a significant amount of people are not exposed to Covid-19.

Now that the evidence is clear that there isn't a significant amount of people not exposed to Covid-19, and probably hasn't been for a long time, a new reason to continue the policy with a Delta variant has to be presented to sell the policy to the people. Thus perpetuating a never-ending policy of "slow the spread," as there will always be viral variants.

So you have to wonder why it's more necessary to be in a perpetual state of "slowing the spread" instead of reducing our national viral risk 90% by going on a diet?