-->
@ludofl3x
Yep, we're on the same page.
Is God material or immaterial?
Posts
Total:
46
-->
@SkepticalOne
such as
Mind over matter has been displayed for you in many different ways. Not only is it displayed in human terms, but of the universe itself and the products thereof. I'll let you think on that.
You wouldn't want to exist in any possible world where matter ruled over mind in totality lol, even though consciousness is limited by forms in a material world it is only because its temporarily confined to it. Even though that presents a challenge, its easy to see that your conscious will exists independent of your material body. This can be shown by your will and ability to control oneself, constrain, restrain, discipline, wait, resist, abstain or be patient. All those factors show how your will is separate from any mechanical instincts.
The processes of the universe show how mind and thought are the very directives of matter, as it exists as an inanimate feature.
-->
@SkepticalOne
@ludofl3x
For me, the world is material. It is made of matter. Ideas might be 'immaterial,' such as an idea about a god, but if I take SkepticalOne's meaning, those ideas can only happen in a human brain, which is, you guessed it, made of matter. Without that matter, there are no ideas. Do I have that right, SkepticalOne?
Your idea of the world is crippled by your belief that matter and brains create your conscious being. Your idea of consciousness is impaired by your own materialistic ideology so there's not much I can do with you. I can present an analogy of electricity and appliances and how they are distinct from one another yet how one uses the other to operate itself.....and how you can measure electrical activity within a circuit board but that circuit board does not create electricity it only confines it.....I can present an analogy about energy and how it exists both within form yet independent of form and just because every form we observe possesses energy it doesn't mean that forms create energy and I can correlate the same distinction about your conscious soul and it may make sense to you. But even that won't have any effect upon your stubborn belief in materialism because that is what you have accepted as true so no amount of evidence or reasoning will suffice.
Besides having you consider my realistic observations about your conscious awareness and how it all works it should be innate to you about what you are and what matter is, you would have to be willing to move all your materialistic baggage and trash out of the way but will you? what would be the point in me giving you any useful information and knowledge just for you to turn around and repeat the same things?
Your conscious being is confined to a material body, your brain is a conduit that isolates and conducts the flow of consciousness to isolate your experience through the physical body so what? the second your consciousness leaves the physical body it will be a still born blob, it is your soul that animates and powers the body....we can measure your energetic presence within the body because your soul powers it. You are not a series of impulses and neurons firing silly atheist, your brains neurons fire because of the energetic presence of your being. You can hook up and electrical meter and read electrical signals within any component that conducts and confines electricity because of the presence of electrical current but do we assume that electrical components create electricity? do we assume all the appliances in your kitchen generate the flow of electrical power? no, that would be stupid.
Likewise your material body is there as a piece of machinery so that you may usefully interact within the material world, that you may be confined to space and time in a form that exists as part of the material construct. But you as the powering energetic force within the body exist independent of that form. Consciousness is not a property of matter, matter is a construct of consciousness.
See Evolutionary aspects of self- and world consciousness in vertebrates
Abstract
Although most aspects of world and self-consciousness are inherently subjective, neuroscience studies in humans and non-human animals provide correlational and causative indices of specific links between brain activity and representation of the self and the world. In this article we review neuroanatomic, neurophysiological and neuropsychological data supporting the hypothesis that different levels of self and world representation in vertebrates rely upon (i) a “basal” subcortical system that includes brainstem, hypothalamus and central thalamic nuclei and that may underpin the primary (or anoetic) consciousness likely present in all vertebrates; and (ii) a forebrain system that include the medial and lateral structures of the cerebral hemispheres and may sustain the most sophisticated forms of consciousness [e.g., noetic (knowledge based) and autonoetic, reflective knowledge]. We posit a mutual, bidirectional functional influence between these two major brain circuits. We conclude that basic aspects of consciousness like primary self and core self (based on anoetic and noetic consciousness) are present in many species of vertebrates and that, even self-consciousness (autonoetic consciousness) does not seem to be a prerogative of humans and of some non-human primates but may, to a certain extent, be present in some other mammals and birds
----> @FLRW
And you're one of the most crippled people in this forum, you don't even know it do ya lol? Mr. Brain Lesions and don't even know what they are... you run around supporting all these silly azz materialists like a leach, blood sucking the life out of out dated and foolish thinking and on top of that believing you are some superior individual because you regurgitate some link of some retard that doesn't know their own azz from a hole in your brain. Did you know that most of these atheists here probably think you are stupid?
If you want a conversation with me, you'll have to start with scratch, because I've already waded through all the childish BS you pretend you understand. I'll need to see your raw thoughts as they exist as conditioned stupidity, before I even think about entertaining your nonsense. So you can keep trailing me with your brainless posts, but will you ever confront me with yourself? I don't think so, you'll hide behind your mask you created as a front to hide your idiocy.
-->
@EtrnlVw
? what would be the point in me giving you any useful information and knowledge just for you to turn around and repeat the same things?
Present said useful information and we can discuss it. You've threatened to do so before, then just barf up a similar word salad of what I guess you think sounds super deep and insightful and profound, when really it's just you being self impressed. I once again invite you do showcase this 'useful information and knowledge.' Except you will preface it with "ignore everything that is demonstrable in real life, otherwise you will never believe my blahdiblah." Can you do it without this condition?
Your conscious being is confined to a material body, your brain is a conduit that isolates and conducts the flow of consciousness to isolate your experience through the physical body so what? the second your consciousness leaves the physical body it will be a still born blob,
Yes, agree so far, this is a good start...
it is your soul that animates and powers the body.
Oh no...we're already off the rails. This would require demonstration of the soul. Where is it detectable in the body, like the electricity firing the neurons and various other electro-chemical reactions that we can confirm actually exist and happen in real time?
.we can measure your energetic presence within the body because your soul powers it.
Please define 'energetic presence' in a useful way. If it's measurable, it should be definable. Also, it would need to be independent of the measurable reactions we already know about, right? Otherwise you'd just be adding "the soul powers these reactions" without demonstrating the soul exists.
You can hook up and electrical meter and read electrical signals within any component that conducts and confines electricity because of the presence of electrical current but do we assume that electrical components create electricity?
Yes, we can hook up instruments and measure it...and no, we don't assume the electrical components create electricity, they utilize it. We absolutely CAN, though, generate electricity, you are aware of that, right? Like it's not magic. Can we generate a soul? Why not, do you think? Why doesn't the circuitboard's soul get credit for the electricity? Or the appliance's soul?
But you as the powering energetic force within the body exist independent of that form. Consciousness is not a property of matter, matter is a construct of consciousness.
Please define "you" in this sentence, presuming it's different from your demonstration of the soul. And are you saying matter wouldn't exist at all without our being conscious of it?
-->
@Tradesecret
Is God material or immaterial?
God is immaterial. By immaterial I mean Spirit. Now I think this would be true no matter what religion is true.
A question for Atheists and Theists.Is the world material or immaterial?Is there anything apart from God that is immaterial?
The world is material with the possibility of alteration. Apart from God being immaterial, mankind is immaterial. We are not our body, we only express ourselves through our body. We are a soul with a spirit and a body. The spirit doesn't need to be a mystical word, it simply is the reasoning part of ourselves, the consummation of our influences that make up our disposition. That's my opinion anyways. I could be out of my mind though.
-->
@ludofl3x
Present said useful information and we can discuss it. You've threatened to do so before, then just barf up a similar word salad of what I guess you think sounds super deep and insightful and profound, when really it's just you being self impressed. I once again invite you do showcase this 'useful information and knowledge.' Except you will preface it with "ignore everything that is demonstrable in real life, otherwise you will never believe my blahdiblah." Can you do it without this condition?
Sorry Boner, but the days of you idiots pretending you have some superior ideology is over. You didn't present Jack shit, and then here you acting like I don't have any skin in the game even though if you examine the content of our posts I'm the only one who presented anything insightful and profound as you stand by and mock it lol. Here is what the materialist idiot presented....
"For me, the world is material. It is made of matter. Ideas might be 'immaterial,' such as an idea about a god, but if I take SkepticalOne's meaning, those ideas can only happen in a human brain, which is, you guessed it, made of matter. Without that matter, there are no ideas. "
Here you pretend once again that you have some superior knowledge by presenting some stale azz superficial statement and then can't even explain how it works.....present a useful analogy of how matter creates a conscious being other than what you will probably pretend is useful information that neurons firing create consciousness, can you give a reason to believe such trash? No, all you have is a stale azz statement, then you mock me even though I put all the thought into my premise.
I don't need to present anything other than what I did in an attempt to connect reality to a very good analogy while you did nothing, ohh...but sit back and pretend you are some superior expertise of reality and consciousness when in fact you are just an ignorant stubborn fool. Nice try though, your schtick is getting old, in fact you sound like a regular dumb butt.
Yes, agree so far, this is a good start...
Ohh, good boy, you see very clearly how the body is nothing more than a piece of material blob without the presence of your soul. Lets see how long that will last.
Oh no...we're already off the rails.
Are we? you had no objection above.....
This would require demonstration of the soul. Where is it detectable in the body
You missed the whole point, measuring activity in the brain is the same as measuring the presence of the soul within the body. Measuring activity within a circuit board is the same as measuring the presence of electricity. Circuit boards don't create electricity, brains don't create consciousness.
like the electricity firing the neurons and various other electro-chemical reactions that we can confirm actually exist and happen in real time?
You don't get it do ya? let me put it this way, you can't prove neurons firing create consciousness, if you tried to make that claim you are a liar. It is simply activity, nothing more and it happens as a result of the energetic presence of the soul and I gave you an analogy of how that works. Consciousness is an open question in science, whereas it is completely understood in spirituality. You can rattle off statements about neurons and chemical reactions but you have no idea of the mechanics behind such a reality.
If you were a collection of chemical reactions and neurons firing everything you experience would be nothing but flashes of existence, if it could even generate consciousness at all....like someone flicking a light switch on and off. There would be absolutely no real coherence. Rather you are first a conscious being, that is temporally inhabiting an inanimate material vehicle. It is nothing but a mask you are filtering your experience through. Your fleshy soft brain exists because your presence needs a proper conduit to confine your energetic being.
Please define 'energetic presence' in a useful way. If it's measurable, it should be definable. Also, it would need to be independent of the measurable reactions we already know about, right? Otherwise you'd just be adding "the soul powers these reactions" without demonstrating the soul exists.
This has been thoroughly explained with the analogy of the circuit board and appliances. You're acting like it doesn't qualify as an explanation in any way. Maybe it's your lack of comprehension? well it ain't mine. All you materialists can do is measure activity, I gave you a solid premise of why you can measure any activity at all. Energetic presence is followed by conscious activity, your very being generates energy. It is measurable, only you think the activity that is measured in the brain creates your consciousness when it is in fact the activity within the brain that is generated by your conscious being. In the same way we can measure electrical activity within a circuit panel because that panel is a conduit of electricity.
Yes, we can hook up instruments and measure it...and no, we don't assume the electrical components create electricity, they utilize it.
Very good, looks like you have some sign of intelligence. Well, I'm not sure about that....
We absolutely CAN, though, generate electricity, you are aware of that, right? Like it's not magic.
Don't get stupid, the analogy is supposed to give you a clear idea of what I'm presenting, I know the difference between electricity and consciousness. This is also why I presented the analogy of energy, simply showing you how the nature of consciousness is both utilized through components and form but also exists independent of those factors. Consciousness is not magic, though believing activity in the brain creates consciousness is certainly magic especially if you can't articulate how that's possible.
Can we generate a soul? Why not, do you think? Why doesn't the circuitboard's soul get credit for the electricity? Or the appliance's soul?
I don't think you understand the analogy or how electricity is harnessed and conducted through electrical components, unless you of course are becoming a wishful thinker here. The soul (consciousness) exists independent of the confines of the material body, the material body is used as a component to isolate your conscious experience to this world, as an interface to interact within the physical constructs of our universe.
Please define "you" in this sentence,
Your conscious being, the animated force that makes up what you are. The observer of the material body and all of its sense perception.
presuming it's different from your demonstration of the soul.
No it is not. Consciousness is what you are, that is what I have been demonstrating to you. Your consciousness is not dependent upon your physical body, if you left the physical body you would still be you, the observer.
And are you saying matter wouldn't exist at all without our being conscious of it?
What I'm saying is that the constructs of matter would not exist without the intelligence behind it to make it possible. God creates the universe, and material bodies evolved through processes to what they are so that your soul could inhabit them as a means of interfacing within this world.
-->
@EtrnlVw
Yep, I should have gone with option B. Ludofl3x has responded as I would. There is nothing more I need say.
-->
@EtrnlVw
What I'm saying is that the constructs of matter would not exist without the intelligence behind it to make it possible. God creates the universe, and material bodies evolved through processes to what they are so that your soul could inhabit them as a means of interfacing within this world.
Yes, you're SAYING it. You're not backing it up with anything other than claims that aren't demonstrated. As usual.
-->
@EtrnlVw
You have a need for a conscious involvement in all things...Which is understandable.
All that a universe requires is the building blocks of evolution and the physical laws that bind them.
Setting things in motion is enough to ensure the outcome.
And GOD will become a conscious intelligence awareness.
Just as other conscious intelligences that precede GOD, will inevitably evolve, from the sequence of events set in motion by GOD.
Therefore it is a continuum.
Spirituality is seemingly an inevitable biproduct of organic intelligence, and as necessary or unnecessary as one cares to presume.
If spirituality is that which motivates, then I will assume that it is necessary.
Future intelligence might only require pure logic.....Who knows?
Is God material or immaterial?
Ask Tim Tebow
Can brain lesions cause mental illness?
When neurologic symptoms developed, they underwent neuroimaging studies and organic brain lesions were diagnosed. Further treatment required neurosurgical interventions. These cases show that brain tumors can be neurologically silent for a sufficient period of time and manifest as psychiatric disorders.
Sorry Boner, but the days of you idiots pretending you have some superior ideology is over. You didn't present Jack shit
you run around supporting all these silly azz materialists like a leach, blood sucking the life out of out dated and foolish thinking
I rest my case.
-->
@EtrnlVw
neurons firing create consciousness, can you give a reason to believe such trash? No, all you have is a stale azz statement, then you mock me even though I put all the thought into my premise.
As to the bold, we can see neurons firing in living brains through various means. Dead brains do not exhibit this behavior. I didn't say I think this is what CREATES consciousness. This would be why I think that's what INDICATES consciousness: it's what we can see. You're adding something to it, and all I'm asking you to do is demonstrate where I can see it, the same way I see electrochemical activity in every living brain, and none in any dead brain. It's measurable and demonstrable. What causes it has never been proven to be anything beyond matter arranged in a certain way, reacting to certain things. Your circuitboard analogy doesn't work, because to you the "power" on the circuitboard of human consciousness is the soul. Circuitboards have demonstrable external power sources. Living things don't, so the analogy needs a lot of work.
That stale azz statement is just science, bro. Don't get mad at it. I mock you because you THINK you're putting thought into your premise, when really what you're putting into it is imagination and a bunch of words. There's no argument there at all. I don't pretend to have superior knowledge, I'm just stating what science shows us. Which one of us is all upset because his "useful information" that he has access to (special knowledge) isn't compelling? I don't need mine to be compelling, it's available to anyone to look at for themselves. So much so that you don't even deny it (electrochemical reactions indicating consciousness), you just jam magic in as the reason for it. I'm not the one saying I know what does it. What do I have to prove? I'm saying I don't know, you're saying you do, I say then show me. You then get all upset. Maybe the internet isn't for you?
-->
@Tradesecret
A question for Atheists and Theists.Is the world material or immaterial?Is there anything apart from God that is immaterial?
I'll respond with a question: does it matter? Either way, one still perceives and reacts/responds to the world/God.
-->
@Intelligence_06
god as an idea exists
Where?