A question for Atheists and Theists.
Is the world material or immaterial?
Is there anything apart from God that is immaterial?
Is God material or immaterial?
Posts
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46
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@Tradesecret
In my opinion:
GOD is the product of the human computer.
Whether or not a thought is tangible, I could not say..... Though one would assume that the process is....Neurons and synapses and all that.
So I doubt that a GOD is a floaty about bloke in the traditional sense.
Though it could be described as a floaty about thing in a neural sense.
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@zedvictor4
In my opinion:GOD is the product of the human computer.Whether or not a thought is tangible, I could not say..... Though one would assume that the process is....Neurons and synapses and all that.So I doubt that a GOD is a floaty about bloke in the traditional sense.Though it could be described as a floaty about thing in a neural sense.
Ok. So you think God is material and real?
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@Tradesecret
Hello Trade.
I assume that function requires matter.
So as real as thought can be.
I have always promoted the GOD principle.
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@zedvictor4
Hello Trade.
Hello back.
I assume that function requires matter.
ok.
So as real as thought can be.I have always promoted the GOD principle.
Hmm yes, I know - but what sort of god do you promote. I often think you sit on the fence. Wouldn't it be nice if you jumped and found out how better it is not resting your ???? on the fence?
Still, a matter completely for you - but seriously - why not try life for a while?
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@Tradesecret
Based upon the idea that GOD is essentially knowledge ,or if you like, ultimate knowledge....Rather than an entity.
I propose that GOD was previously achieved, and will again be achieved sometime in the future.
We, are somewhere betwixt GODS, and an essential part of the process of accumulating knowledge.
I also propose that Alternative Intelligence will also play a part.
Mythical tales, supernatural beliefs and worship are perhaps an inevitable part of the human process, and so consequently also an essential part of the GOD process. Though the GOD that was and the GOD that we a striving towards would have no regard for such things.
Immaterial. God, if it exists, is an idea and a concept.
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@zedvictor4
Based upon the idea that GOD is essentially knowledge ,or if you like, ultimate knowledge....Rather than an entity.
Do you mean like Plato suggested? Forms and ideas etc.
I propose that GOD was previously achieved, and will again be achieved sometime in the future.
Not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate?
We, are somewhere betwixt GODS, and an essential part of the process of accumulating knowledge.
???? Between Gods? Which gods? You are going to have to elaborate.
I also propose that Alternative Intelligence will also play a part.
Well I am looking forward to your explanation.
Mythical tales, supernatural beliefs and worship are perhaps an inevitable part of the human process, and so consequently also an essential part of the GOD process. Though the GOD that was and the GOD that we a striving towards would have no regard for such things.
So you are not an atheist. Perhaps a polytheist. Perhaps a mystical one. Interesting,.
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@Intelligence_06
Immaterial. God, if it exists, is an idea and a concept.
Are you an atheist? Are you also a materialist? Or do you believe that humanity is made up with more than material stuff ?
Do you believe that the brain and the mind is the same thing?
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@Tradesecret
I am not a materialist. Rather, I think everything is spiritual, immaterial, any concept, ever, including god.
Though the concept of "god" may not even stand on its own.
God is just numerous brain lesions . Albert Einstein, Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk don't have any of these brain lesions. Oh, and FLRW and zedvictor4 don't have any either.
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@Tradesecret
Is God material or immaterial?
Immaterial in the sense that God exists independent of the material world. Or better put, exists prior to the material world, in other words before anything existed in our material world God existed.
Is the world material or immaterial?
The products and objects within the world are "material", but they are set within an infinite backdrop which is immaterial.
I only use the term "immaterial" though as a means to make a distinction between God and what can be measured in our material world.
The effects of God can be measured but not the substance of God, and by substance I only mean the conscious Reality of God....the very nature of God, meaning what God is. Some might use the term soul but the nature of soul is to be conscious, they are the same thing.
We could also use the terms animate and inanimate......material itself is inanimate while consciousness or soul is animate.
A good analogy here would be likened to your kitchen with an array of various appliances and we will call those appliances inanimate. Then we have electricity which we will call animate, and electricity exists independent of those appliances but is the substance that powers (animates) all the products within the kitchen. For this analogy we will say that the appliances are material and the electricity is immaterial. Material would be the inanimate objects that electricity animates. So compared to creation, material created things are animated by consciousness or soul.
Is there anything apart from God that is immaterial?
If I claim God is immaterial this question doesn't make much sense. Immaterial only falls under one category, it's the same category God is in.
If God exists, It is a conscious Reality (awareness) that does not rely on the material construct of the universe to exist.
If a conscious Reality exists independent of the material constructs of the universe then that conscious Reality is immaterial.
The material world is only a product of that conscious Reality, God is not a product of the material world, the material world and everything within it are created things.
If the material world and everything in it are created things God cannot be a material object because God is not a created thing. God does not need anything material or created to exist. likewise, consciousness does not need anything material or created to exist.
However, in order that consciousness (soul) interacts within the material world it would need a material or physical apparatus to interface within a physical simulation. Much like your kitchen, electricity (consciousness) uses appliances (material) to become something useful in your kitchen.
So basically we are categorizing products of creation as material, and uncreated things as immaterial.
Taking this a bit deeper, we could say that because all things that exist originate from one single Source that ultimately there is no real distinction because one thing comes from the other (or out of the other), making all things either material or all things immaterial because at some level everything connects. The problem here though is categorization in human terms and how we measure things. We can measure things that are created (which are the effects of God) but we can't measure the uncreated.
Since we can't physically harness God it is something we can't really measure, and if we can't measure it it's not something we would classify as material. So because of this problem per say, we need another category for whatever it is we can't measure, hence immaterial.
The religious world makes up their own terms for the distinction between the material and the immaterial, you may hear terms like soul, spirit, disembodiment, spiritual, life force, consciousness ect ect... basically it's simply a classification of what we experience between two seemingly contrasting observations. We can physically see and touch one and not the other. So determining things through sense perception there appears to be a distinction, even if it some level there is none.
This brings me to how all things are interconnected and the processes by which God brings things into existence (which I won't get into yet), and the reality of God's existence and the processes by which all things are created are the only real distinction we are looking at between what we label as being material or immaterial.
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@Intelligence_06
God, if it exists, is an idea and a concept.
But ideas and concepts aren't animated things they are inanimate. If you say God is inanimate there is no actual existence. So God either exists or doesn't, if you say God exists then God is more than an idea or concept, and is a Reality.
God as a concept only exists because God is defined as an Entity, not an idea.
This doesn't mean God is material though, in the sense of how we define material.
God exists because God is conscious though disembodied. Consciousness IS what defines God as existing and also what defines God as Being.
Another way to put it is you're saying God is either a real thing or not a real thing. If you say God is just an idea basically you are saying God is not a real thing.
god as an idea exists
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@Intelligence_06
god as an idea exists
Ideas don't exist in reality as actual unless they are real. Santa Clause for example, exists as an idea but not in reality. Which is it?
What's happening between material and immaterial is the reality of what we can measure vs what we cannot measure, that's basically it. This scenario is much like a painting where God would be the canvas and the painting itself creation. In this scenario, we can only measure the products of the paint and not the canvas itself because that is what we see and observe. Materialists gather that only the products of the paint exist, because they are what we can see and measure and of course what we can't measure does not exist. However just like the painting, the canvas still exists despite us not seeing it, it is under the paint...all we see is the painting itself but the paint can only present itself because of the canvas.
You could also say that the canvas is the universe....the paint the products that exist in the universe and of course God as the Painter, but I wanted to simulate the idea that creation exists within God or that God is the backdrop of the painting. I don't want to paint the idea that God is somewhere outside of the canvas painting an image onto it because all things exist within God. In this way I think presenting God as the canvas itself paints a more accurate image.
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@EtrnlVw
It exists as an idea, immaterially. You cannot prove that it exists, you cannot feel it, it is an idea, nothing more, nothing less.
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@Intelligence_06
Lol, God either exists or does not exist, one or the other. Whether or not we can prove that existence is irrelevant. So are you saying God is fiction or non-fiction?
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@EtrnlVw
To your standards, it doesn't exist.
We could not prove that God actually exists besides it being an idea. We could only believe it, as an idea that guides us.
I also think that intelligence_06 doesn't have any brain lesions either.
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@Intelligence_06
To your standards, it doesn't exist.
Existence is either actual or not, that's the only standard. Our beliefs, ideas and concepts exist independent of God's existence.
We could not prove that God actually exists besides it being an idea.
To prove something to oneself is different than proving it to another. You can establish the validity of a truth to yourself while not being able to demonstrate anything to anyone else. I would only want to believe in something as it exists in reality, not just an idea. Not being able to prove it, again is irrelevant to whether or not God exists.
We could only believe it, as an idea that guides us.
I don't think belief is sufficient as it stands. You as a soul aren't really separate from God so at a deeper conscious level there is much more than mere belief. God is experience, albeit extending beyond the material sense perceptions.
---> @FLRW
any brain lesions
Hey Dum Dum, do you even know how damage to brain tissue is caused? did you know that people of all beliefs of all kinds may or may not have brain lesions? that it doesn't matter whether one is theist, atheist or anything else? did you know that it is probably likely you yourself have them? did you know that you can see brain lesions appear as a disfigurement in the upper section of the radii solaris of the iris? did you know that brain lesions can be repaired and how? did you know that dum dums like yourself get fixated on stupid statements they really know nothing about and keep repeating them? did you know that your conditioned lack of original thinking is easily seen by your constant and annoying quoting of other dummies?
Research has found religious belief is associated with certain regions of the human brain, but there is still much to learn about how these areas influence religious belief. A new study in the journal Neuropsychologia found that lesions in a particular brain region tend to increase religious fundamentalism.
“Human beliefs, and in this case religious beliefs, are one of the cognitive and social knowledge stores that distinguish us from other species and are an indication of how evolution and cognitive/social processes influenced the development of the human brain,” Jordan Grafman of Northwestern University, the study’s corresponding author, told PsyPost.
“Human beliefs, and in this case religious beliefs, are one of the cognitive and social knowledge stores that distinguish us from other species and are an indication of how evolution and cognitive/social processes influenced the development of the human brain,” Jordan Grafman of Northwestern University, the study’s corresponding author, told PsyPost.
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@Tradesecret
So:
The creation of one universe is the re-initiation of the previous universe.
Re-initiation requires a GOD principle. Which will be generated by previous intelligence/s.
Therefore we, and what may follow us in terms of alternative intelligence and GOD principle, will eventually bring about the re-initiation of the next universe.
And so the process (evolution of matter) will start all over again.....New life, new intelligence new GOD principle....New religion I expect.
Not sure what sort of ist this makes me.
A Theorist maybe.
Maybe remnants of the old GOD survives the collapse and re-initiation of the old and new universes.....That's as spiritual as I get.
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@Tradesecret
A question for Atheists and Theists.Is the world material or immaterial?
Material. Things often claimed to be immaterial are contingent upon material.
Is there anything apart from God that is immaterial?
The qualification (other than God) pre-answers the thread title (loaded question?). As for how an atheist would answer "Is God material or immaterial?", I think the question had 3 words too many.
I would say that SkepticalOne does not have any brain lesions also.
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@zedvictor4
The creation of one universe is the re-initiation of the previous universe.Re-initiation requires a GOD principle. Which will be generated by previous intelligence/s.Therefore we, and what may follow us in terms of alternative intelligence and GOD principle, will eventually bring about the re-initiation of the next universe.And so the process (evolution of matter) will start all over again.....New life, new intelligence new GOD principle....New religion I expect.Maybe remnants of the old GOD survives the collapse and re-initiation of the old and new universes
To make this even remotely possible, as in make sense, there must be a continuum of the first (God) principle. You can't have a first principle which collapses and re-initiates Itself lol. You must have an overarching principle which continues infinitely through any series of events. For there to be a creation and a re-creation something must have full control over such a process. So while there is always the option of new creation, there is no option of new God, creation is then the only changing factor which exists within an unchanging infinite intelligence.
Intelligence is simply a product of conscious awareness, so don't be afraid to understand God as a conscious intelligent Reality.....which fully understands the products It produces. And we don't really have to invoke religion to come to this conclusion even though it touches on some religious ideals.
So if eternity is a reality, so is the first principle that carries over into the re-initiation of the universe. The re-initiation of creation does not require a re-initiation of the God principle, there must be a factor which makes the continuum of events coherent. So the nature of God is eternal, where any series of events take place within that Reality. Consciousness is unaffected by the processes of the universe because It is not a product of the universe, the universe is a product of It. Consciousness can be confined and reduced to form to isolate it, but like energy it also exists independent of form. And consciousness (intelligence) like energy is a continuum independent of any changes or phenomenon that take place within our universe.
This is also why you can correlate the products of energy with intelligence, because energy is manipulated through intelligent processes. Energy, like awareness is neither created nor destroyed and so they actually co-exist, with energy being the byproduct of conscious activity and generated by the very presence of awareness.
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@SkepticalOne
Things often claimed to be immaterial are contingent upon material.
Things often claimed to be material are contingent upon the immaterial.
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@EtrnlVw
Things often claimed to be material are contingent upon the immaterial.
Option A: "such as?"
Option B: "if you say so."
Decisions, decisions...
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@EtrnlVw
@SkepticalOne
Things often claimed to be material are contingent upon the immaterial.
Can you provide an example of this?
For me, the world is material. It is made of matter. Ideas might be 'immaterial,' such as an idea about a god, but if I take SkepticalOne's meaning, those ideas can only happen in a human brain, which is, you guessed it, made of matter. Without that matter, there are no ideas. Do I have that right, SkepticalOne?