The implicit Resurrection within the Jewish system

Author: Tradesecret

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#121
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@Shila
The ancient Jews never contributed to science,  Medicine, mathematics and even their religion is suspect. They were a tribal group struggling for survival when Egypt was a dominant empire in the Middle East.
And we survived. Is Egypt still dominant? You seem rather set against the idea that Judaism has succeeded. You should read more Mark Twain.

But they did produce Jesus a Jew with strong convictions about an alternate reality. Unfortunately the Jews rejected Jesus and Jesus showered his blessings on the followers of his New Covenant.
Judaism also produced other false messiahs. What aren't you a Sabbatean?



#122
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@rosends
The ancient Jews never contributed to science,  Medicine, mathematics and even their religion is suspect. They were a tribal group struggling for survival when Egypt was a dominant empire in the Middle East.

And we survived. Is Egypt still dominant? You seem rather set against the idea that Judaism has succeeded. You should read more Mark Twain.
But they did produce Jesus a Jew with strong convictions about an alternate reality. Unfortunately the Jews rejected Jesus and Jesus showered his blessings on the followers of his New Covenant.

Moses running away from the Pharaoh became the greatest hero in Jewish history. God gave Moses 613 commandments  to prepare the Jews for future exiles starting with the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Medians, the Greeks, and now under Western rule(Holocaust).

Judaism also produced other false messiahs. What aren't you a Sabbatean?
So producing false prophets is a Jewish phenomenon.

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@Shila
Moses running away from the Pharaoh became the greatest hero in Jewish history.
I'm not sure how you define hero, and why you take a moment of fleeing to save your life as a mark against someone, and ignore everything else. Jesus cried out on the cross like a coward and he became the greatest hero in Christianity. 

God gave Moses 613 commandments  to prepare the Jews for future exiles starting with the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Medians, the Greeks, and now under Western rule(Holocaust).
No, one does not give people rules to prepare them for exiles. Your logic never ceases to implode.

So producing false prophets is a Jewish phenomenon.

No, not uniquely.

#124
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@rosends
Moses running away from the Pharaoh became the greatest hero in Jewish history.

I'm not sure how you define hero, and why you take a moment of fleeing to save your life as a mark against someone, and ignore everything else. Jesus cried out on the cross like a coward and he became the greatest hero in Christianity. 
God gave Moses 613 commandments  to prepare the Jews for future exiles starting with the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Medians, the Greeks, and now under Western rule(Holocaust).

No, one does not give people rules to prepare them for exiles. Your logic never ceases to implode.
Why would these rules be given to Jews unless it was to prepare them for future exiles. These rules never helped the Jews to defend their homeland from the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Medians, the Greeks, and now under Western rule(Holocaust).
But it helped the Jews stay together during their multiple exiles from their homeland.


Judaism also produced other false messiahs. What aren't you a Sabbatean?
So producing false prophets is a Jewish phenomenon.

No, not uniquely.
Judaism has more prophets than any other religion.

According to the Talmud, there were 48 prophets and 7 prophetesses of Judaism. The last Jewish prophet is believed to have been Malachi.

The 48 prophets to Israel
1. Abraham – Hebrew patriarch according to the Bible
2.Isaac – Biblical patriarch
3. Jacob – Regarded as a Patriarch of the Israelites, later given the name Israel
4. Moses – Abrahamic prophet said to have led the Israelites out of Egypt
5. Aaron – Prophet, high priest, and the brother of Moses in the Abrahamic religions
6.Joshua – Central figure in the Hebrew Bible's Book of Joshua
7. Phinehas – Biblical priest and prophet who opposed the heresy of Peor
8. Eli – High priest of Shiloh in ancient Israel
9. Elkanah – Husband of Hannah and father of Samuel in the Books of Samuel
10. Samuel – Biblical prophet who plays a key role in the establishment of the Israelite monarchy
11. Gad – Seer or prophet mentioned in the Hebrew Bible
12. Natan – Person in the Hebrew Bible
13. David – Biblical figure; third monarch of the United Kingdom of Israel
14. Ahijah the Shilonite – Biblical prophet
15. Solomon – Biblical monarch of ancient Israel
16.Shemaiah – Bible prophet credited with preventing a war between the divided kingdoms of Rehoboam and Jeroboam
17. Iddo – Minor biblical prophet
18. Obadiah – Biblical prophet to whom authorship of the Book of Obadiah is attributed
19.Jehu – Biblical prophet and son of Hanani
20. Oded – Father of Azariah the prophet
21. Azariah – Biblical prophet credited with persuading King Asa of Judah to carry out reforms
22. Hanani – Biblical character
23. Jahaziel – Meaning of Jahaziel in the Bible
24. Eliezer
25. Elijah – Biblical prophet
26.Elisha – Prophet and wonder-worker in the Hebrew Bible
27. Micaiah – Biblical prophet, disciple of Elijah
28. Jonah – Quranic and Biblical prophet
29. Amos – Hebrew prophet
30. Hosea – Biblical character
31. Amoz – Father of Isaiah
32. Isaiah – Israelite prophet
33. Micah – Prophet in Judaism
34. Joel – Abrahamic prophet, author of Book of Joel
35. Zephaniah – Person in the bible
36. Nahum – Minor prophet in the Bible
37.Habakkuk – Prophet of the Hebrew Bible
38. Urijah – Biblical prophet, son of Shemaiah
39. Jeremiah – Biblical prophet
40. Ezekiel – Prophet in the Abrahamic religions
41. Mehseiah – Minor figure in the Hebrew Bible
42. Neriah – Biblical figure, father of Baruch and Seraiah
43.Baruch ben Neriah – Biblical character, friend of prophet Jeremiah
44. Seraiah
45. Haggai – Hebrew prophet
46.Zechariah – Biblical prophet
47. Mordechai Bilshan – Biblical figure
48. Malachi – Traditional writer of the Book of Malachi

The 7 prophetesses to Israel[edit]
1. Sarah – Biblical character
2. Miriam – Sister of Moses and Aaron
3. Deborah – Prophetess in the Bible
4. Hannah – Biblical prophetess, traditional author of the Song of Hannah, mother of Samuel
5. Abigail – Wife of King David in the Bible
6. Huldah – Biblical character
7. Esther – Biblical Jewish queen of Persia and Medes


Prophets to other nations[edit]
The Talmud lists 7 prophets to the nations of the world (gentiles):[10]
1. Balaam – Prophet
2. Beor – Biblical figure, father of Balaam
3. Job – Biblical figure
4. Eliphaz – Biblical figure, an associate of Job
5. Bildad – Biblical figure, an associate of Job
6. Zophar – Biblical figure, an associate of Job
7. Elihu – Biblical figure, an associate of Job

But all these prophets could not  help Jews to defend their homeland from the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Medians, the Greeks, and now under Western rule(Holocaust).

#125
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@Shila
Why would these rules be given to Jews unless it was to prepare them for future exiles.
so America has a speed limit in order to prepare people for a future exile. Got it. That also explains the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Brilliant.

Judaism has more prophets than any other religion.
yes, but not what we were speaking about. Instead of dealing with the stupidity of your earlier statement you go in a completely different direction and cut and paste something which I already know and which doesn't relate to your erroneous claim.
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@rosends
Why would these rules be given to Jews unless it was to prepare them for future exiles.

so America has a speed limit in order to prepare people for a future exile. Got it. That also explains the Sherman Anti-Trust Act. Brilliant.
American Jews are no different. Speed limits are seen as necessary. It took Moses 40 years to reach the promised land which according to modern scholars was a months journey by foot. Jews imposed speed limits on their exiled Jews then and will do so again.

Judaism also produced other false messiahs. What aren't you a Sabbatean?
So producing false prophets is a Jewish phenomenon.

No, not uniquely.
Judaism has more prophets than any other religion.

yes, but not what we were speaking about. Instead of dealing with the stupidity of your earlier statement you go in a completely different direction and cut and paste something which I already know and which doesn't relate to your erroneous claim.
We were talking about Judaism producing other false messiahs and prophets.

According to the Talmud, there were 48 prophets and 7 prophetesses of Judaism. The last Jewish prophet is believed to have been Malachi.

The 48 prophets to Israel
1. Abraham – Hebrew patriarch according to the Bible
2.Isaac – Biblical patriarch
3. Jacob – Regarded as a Patriarch of the Israelites, later given the name Israel
4. Moses – Abrahamic prophet said to have led the Israelites out of Egypt
5. Aaron – Prophet, high priest, and the brother of Moses in the Abrahamic religions
6.Joshua – Central figure in the Hebrew Bible's Book of Joshua
7. Phinehas – Biblical priest and prophet who opposed the heresy of Peor
8. Eli – High priest of Shiloh in ancient Israel
9. Elkanah – Husband of Hannah and father of Samuel in the Books of Samuel
10. Samuel – Biblical prophet who plays a key role in the establishment of the Israelite monarchy
11. Gad – Seer or prophet mentioned in the Hebrew Bible
12. Natan – Person in the Hebrew Bible
13. David – Biblical figure; third monarch of the United Kingdom of Israel
14. Ahijah the Shilonite – Biblical prophet
15. Solomon – Biblical monarch of ancient Israel
16.Shemaiah – Bible prophet credited with preventing a war between the divided kingdoms of Rehoboam and Jeroboam
17. Iddo – Minor biblical prophet
18. Obadiah – Biblical prophet to whom authorship of the Book of Obadiah is attributed
19.Jehu – Biblical prophet and son of Hanani
20. Oded – Father of Azariah the prophet
21. Azariah – Biblical prophet credited with persuading King Asa of Judah to carry out reforms
22. Hanani – Biblical character
23. Jahaziel – Meaning of Jahaziel in the Bible
24. Eliezer
25. Elijah – Biblical prophet
26.Elisha – Prophet and wonder-worker in the Hebrew Bible
27. Micaiah – Biblical prophet, disciple of Elijah
28. Jonah – Quranic and Biblical prophet
29. Amos – Hebrew prophet
30. Hosea – Biblical character
31. Amoz – Father of Isaiah
32. Isaiah – Israelite prophet
33. Micah – Prophet in Judaism
34. Joel – Abrahamic prophet, author of Book of Joel
35. Zephaniah – Person in the bible
36. Nahum – Minor prophet in the Bible
37.Habakkuk – Prophet of the Hebrew Bible
38. Urijah – Biblical prophet, son of Shemaiah
39. Jeremiah – Biblical prophet
40. Ezekiel – Prophet in the Abrahamic religions
41. Mehseiah – Minor figure in the Hebrew Bible
42. Neriah – Biblical figure, father of Baruch and Seraiah
43.Baruch ben Neriah – Biblical character, friend of prophet Jeremiah
44. Seraiah
45. Haggai – Hebrew prophet
46.Zechariah – Biblical prophet
47. Mordechai Bilshan – Biblical figure
48. Malachi – Traditional writer of the Book of Malachi

The 7 prophetesses to Israel[edit]
1. Sarah – Biblical character
2. Miriam – Sister of Moses and Aaron
3. Deborah – Prophetess in the Bible
4. Hannah – Biblical prophetess, traditional author of the Song of Hannah, mother of Samuel
5. Abigail – Wife of King David in the Bible
6. Huldah – Biblical character
7. Esther – Biblical Jewish queen of Persia and Medes


Prophets to other nations[edit]
The Talmud lists 7 prophets to the nations of the world (gentiles):[10]
1. Balaam – Prophet
2. Beor – Biblical figure, father of Balaam
3. Job – Biblical figure
4. Eliphaz – Biblical figure, an associate of Job
5. Bildad – Biblical figure, an associate of Job
6. Zophar – Biblical figure, an associate of Job
7. Elihu – Biblical figure, an associate of Job

But all these prophets could not  help Jews to defend their homeland from the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Medians, the Greeks, and now under Western rule(Holocaust).

#127
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@Shila
American Jews are no different. Speed limits are seen as necessary. It took Moses 40 years to reach the promised land which according to modern scholars was a months journey by foot. Jews imposed speed limits on their exiled Jews then and will do so again.
completely irrelevant. You made a claim about the purpose of laws and now you have moved to somewhere else because you have been proven wrong. Moving on...
We were talking about Judaism producing other false messiahs and prophets.

No, you made a claim that producing false messiahs was a Jewish phenomenon and I showed otherwise. Your response is to give a list of all the Jewish prophets as determined talmudically.
But all these prophets could not  help Jews to defend their homeland from the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Medians, the Greeks, and now under Western rule(Holocaust).
If you think that this is relevant then you have no idea what the purpose of a prophet is.
#128
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@rosends
But all these prophets could not  help Jews to defend their homeland from the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Medians, the Greeks, and now under Western rule(Holocaust).

If you think that this is relevant then you have no idea what the purpose of a prophet is.
The purpose and mission of the prophets were completely lost to the Jews.

All these prophets could not  help Jews to defend their homeland from the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Medians, the Greeks, and now under Western rule(Holocaust).

According to the Talmud, there were 48 prophets and 7 prophetesses of Judaism. The last Jewish prophet is believed to have been Malachi.

The 48 prophets to Israel
1. Abraham – Hebrew patriarch according to the Bible
2.Isaac – Biblical patriarch
3. Jacob – Regarded as a Patriarch of the Israelites, later given the name Israel
4. Moses – Abrahamic prophet said to have led the Israelites out of Egypt
5. Aaron – Prophet, high priest, and the brother of Moses in the Abrahamic religions
6.Joshua – Central figure in the Hebrew Bible's Book of Joshua
7. Phinehas – Biblical priest and prophet who opposed the heresy of Peor
8. Eli – High priest of Shiloh in ancient Israel
9. Elkanah – Husband of Hannah and father of Samuel in the Books of Samuel
10. Samuel – Biblical prophet who plays a key role in the establishment of the Israelite monarchy
11. Gad – Seer or prophet mentioned in the Hebrew Bible
12. Natan – Person in the Hebrew Bible
13. David – Biblical figure; third monarch of the United Kingdom of Israel
14. Ahijah the Shilonite – Biblical prophet
15. Solomon – Biblical monarch of ancient Israel
16.Shemaiah – Bible prophet credited with preventing a war between the divided kingdoms of Rehoboam and Jeroboam
17. Iddo – Minor biblical prophet
18. Obadiah – Biblical prophet to whom authorship of the Book of Obadiah is attributed
19.Jehu – Biblical prophet and son of Hanani
20. Oded – Father of Azariah the prophet
21. Azariah – Biblical prophet credited with persuading King Asa of Judah to carry out reforms
22. Hanani – Biblical character
23. Jahaziel – Meaning of Jahaziel in the Bible
24. Eliezer
25. Elijah – Biblical prophet
26.Elisha – Prophet and wonder-worker in the Hebrew Bible
27. Micaiah – Biblical prophet, disciple of Elijah
28. Jonah – Quranic and Biblical prophet
29. Amos – Hebrew prophet
30. Hosea – Biblical character
31. Amoz – Father of Isaiah
32. Isaiah – Israelite prophet
33. Micah – Prophet in Judaism
34. Joel – Abrahamic prophet, author of Book of Joel
35. Zephaniah – Person in the bible
36. Nahum – Minor prophet in the Bible
37.Habakkuk – Prophet of the Hebrew Bible
38. Urijah – Biblical prophet, son of Shemaiah
39. Jeremiah – Biblical prophet
40. Ezekiel – Prophet in the Abrahamic religions
41. Mehseiah – Minor figure in the Hebrew Bible
42. Neriah – Biblical figure, father of Baruch and Seraiah
43.Baruch ben Neriah – Biblical character, friend of prophet Jeremiah
44. Seraiah
45. Haggai – Hebrew prophet
46.Zechariah – Biblical prophet
47. Mordechai Bilshan – Biblical figure
48. Malachi – Traditional writer of the Book of Malachi

The 7 prophetesses to Israel[edit]
1. Sarah – Biblical character
2. Miriam – Sister of Moses and Aaron
3. Deborah – Prophetess in the Bible
4. Hannah – Biblical prophetess, traditional author of the Song of Hannah, mother of Samuel
5. Abigail – Wife of King David in the Bible
6. Huldah – Biblical character
7. Esther – Biblical Jewish queen of Persia and Medes


Prophets to other nations[edit]
The Talmud lists 7 prophets to the nations of the world (gentiles):[10]
1. Balaam – Prophet
2. Beor – Biblical figure, father of Balaam
3. Job – Biblical figure
4. Eliphaz – Biblical figure, an associate of Job
5. Bildad – Biblical figure, an associate of Job
6. Zophar – Biblical figure, an associate of Job
7. Elihu – Biblical figure, an associate of Job

But all these prophets could not  help Jews to defend their homeland from the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Medians, the Greeks, and now under Western rule(Holocaust).

#129
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@Shila
The purpose and mission of the prophets were completely lost to the Jews.
so your essential argument is that Jews don't understand Judaism and Jewish ideas. OK.

But all these prophets could not  help Jews to defend their homeland from the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Medians, the Greeks, and now under Western rule(Holocaust).
and yet this claim has no relation to the role of the prophet
#130
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@rosends
The purpose and mission of the prophets were completely lost to the Jews.

so your essential argument is that Jews don't understand Judaism and Jewish ideas. OK.

Jerusalem, Killer of Prophets

SCRIPTURE READING — PSALM 147:1-7; LUKE 13:31-35
Luke 13:34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.”
—  Luke 13:34


Jerusalem was supposed to be a place where God gathered the outcasts and healed the brokenhearted, not the center for killing his prophets. It had happened before, and it was happening again (see 2 Chronicles 24:20-21; Jeremiah 26:20-23; Luke 9:9). Ruled by ruthless Herod and governed by the Romans, the city of peace was again an opponent of God’s purposes. If it killed the messengers of God, what would it do with the Son of God?

Jerusalem’s opposition did not deter Jesus from continuing his journey. He didn’t shrink from his calling. He was determined to appear in Jerusalem as the Lord’s Messiah. He knew that at the time God had appointed, and not before, he too would be sentenced there to die.

Through his work of salvation and restoration, Jesus will also return one day with a new Jerusalem that truly gathers God’s people, healing the broken­hearted and binding up their wounds. Then there will be no more mourning or crying or pain (Revelation 21:1-4).

Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick” (Luke 5:31)—physically, mentally, spiritually. This includes us: we need the healing and saving love of Jesus just as much as all who rejected him in Jerusalem.

But all these prophets could not  help Jews to defend their homeland from the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Medians, the Greeks, and now under Western rule(Holocaust).
If the Jews understood the mission of the prophets they would have been better prepared to live in exile.

and yet this claim has no relation to the role of the prophet

 All the disaster that came on the northern kingdom was a direct result of its rejection of the word of the Lord. God sent them prophets to confront and correct them, but they persisted in patterns of idolatry, injustice, and rebellion.



Jesus confirms the role of the prophets.
Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”







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@Shila
wow...look! more quotes from books that fdon't mean anything. Then you make a claim about prophecy which is different from what you stated earlier! You can't even keep track of your own points. You are hilarious.
#132
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@rosends
wow...look! more quotes from books that fdon't mean anything. Then you make a claim about prophecy which is different from what you stated earlier! You can't even keep track of your own points. You are hilarious.
Jesus quoted from 24 books in the Old Testament. The Jews rejected Jesus because of his adherence to the Old Testament. He was preparing them for their next exile.
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@Shila
Jesus quoted from 24 books in the Old Testament. The Jews rejected Jesus because of his adherence to the Old Testament. He was preparing them for their next exile.
Jews rejected him because he advocated breaking God's rules, he was not eligible to be the messiah, and he was a failure. And now, he's also a dead failure.
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Jesus quoted from 24 books in the Old Testament. The Jews rejected Jesus because of his adherence to the Old Testament. He was preparing them for their next exile.

Jews rejected him because he advocated breaking God's rules, he was not eligible to be the messiah, and he was a failure. And now, he's also a dead failure.

Matthew 23:37  “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.


The Jews demanded Jesus be crucified.
Luke 23:21 But they kept shouting, “Crucify him! Crucify him!”

Now the Rabbi calls Jesus a failure and also a dead failure even though the Jews accepted.
Matthew 27:25 All the people (Jews) answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!”

Jews have tried to distance themselves from Jesus and their role in his crucifixion.
But the world holds the Jews responsible and labels the  Jews circumcised Christ killers. How can a Rabbi rewrite Jewish history when the facts are so overwhelming?

Think where the  jews would be today If they just let Jesus complete his mission?

Matthew 15:24 Then Jesus said to the woman, “I was sent only to help God’s lost sheep—the people of Israel.”
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Jews have tried to distance themselves from Jesus and their role in his crucifixion.
mostly because the gospel accounts are inconsistent and historically inaccurate

But the world holds the Jews responsible and labels the  Jews circumcised Christ killers. How can a Rabbi rewrite Jewish history when the facts are so overwhelming?
Ah, "the world" -- a false monolith. By the way, I don't recall rewriting any history. Show me where I did. 

Think where the  jews would be today If they just let Jesus complete his mission?
As he failed before he died he had no particular mission.

Imagine where the world would be if it hadn't repeatedly, try to kill all the Jews.
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@rosends
Think where the  jews would be today If they just let Jesus complete his mission?

As he failed before he died he had no particular mission.
Jesus declared his mission before the Jews.
Matthew 15:24 Then Jesus said to the woman, “I was sent only to help God’s lost sheep—the people of Israel.”

Imagine where the world would be if it hadn't repeatedly, try to kill all the Jews.

Are the Jews distancing themselves from Jesus because Jesus claimed dead Jews could forgive sins?  And the world rejoiced and started sacrificing Jews in proportion to the growing Christian population of sinners so that they would be forgiven.

But Jews sacrificing Palestinians by killing them and stealing their land is an act of murder and blasphemy. Dead Palestinians cannot forgive sins only Jews can.
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@Shila
Are the Jews distancing themselves from Jesus because Jesus claimed dead Jews could forgive sins?

Jews ignore Jesus because he failed and doesn't matter. Silly claims are just icing on the cake.


 And the world rejoiced and started sacrificing Jews in proportion to the growing Christian population of sinners so that they would be forgiven.
if you characterize Christians as rejoicing when Jews are killed then you should take that up with Christians.


But Jews sacrificing Palestinians by killing them and stealing their land is an act of murder and blasphemy. Dead Palestinians cannot forgive sins only Jews can.
so many errors in one statement. Well done. Is there any field in which you actually know anything?

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@rosends

But Jews sacrificing Palestinians by killing them and stealing their land is an act of murder and blasphemy. Dead Palestinians cannot forgive sins only Jews can.

so many errors in one statement. Well done. Is there any field in which you actually know anything?
Jews love to interpret everything so that it suits their interests.

Eg. Israel has declared at least 26 percent of the West Bank as “state land”.

Using a different interpretation of Ottoman, British and Jordanian laws, Israel stole public and private Palestinian land for settlements under the pretext of “state land”.

Though many Palestinians had paid taxes and cultivated their land for decades, most land wasn't registered during the Ottoman and British occupations; in 1968, Israel stopped the process of land registration and declared any unregistered land as belonging to the Israeli government.

Settlements on “state land” often expand into surrounding, privately owned, Palestinian land.

As an occupying power, Israel does not own the West Bank and is not permitted under international law to seize land in this manner.

The many Jewish interpretations of the Holocaust.

Perennial suffering has as much right to expression as the tortured have to scream . . . hence it may have been wrong to say that no poem could be written after Auschwitz."
--Theodore Adorno

Jewish responses to the Shaoh, to the Holocaust, have been understandably multi-faceted:

1. "God is dead." If there were a God, he would surely have prevented the Holocaust. Since God did not prevent it, then God as traditionally understood either does not exist or has changed in some way. For some this means that God has abandoned them, while for others it means God never did exist. Jews must be in the world for themselves.  This may mean a turn to atheism or perhaps a turn to some more like pantheism. Sherman Wine holds that no God can possibly exist, while Richard Rubenstein has come to suggest a kind of neo-paganism as the best alternative.
2. "The Eclipse of God." There are times when God is inexplicably absent from history. Martin Buber made this phrase famous, suggesting that the 20th century was passing through a period where God, for reasons unknowable to us, refused to reveal himself.
3. A Distant God. The experience of the Holocaust calls for Jews to reinterpret their belief in God. God is obviously not a being who actually interferes with human existence in any tangible, measurable way. Arthur A. Cohen holds that God is so transcendent that he cannot be held responsible for the Holocaust.
4. A Limited God. God is not omnipotent. He does not have the power to bring to a halt such things as the Holocaust. Harold Kushner made this view popular in his book, When Bad Things Happen to Good People.
5. Free Will & God. Terrible events such as the Holocaust are the price we have to pay for having free will. God will not and cannot interfere with history, otherwise our free will would effectively cease to exist. Eliezer Berkovits, for example, stresses that God is all-powerful but that he curtails his own freedom to respect human freedom, even with such horrific consequences.
6.  A Suffering God. Borrowing from Christian reflection on Christ and the passibility of God, Hans Jonas has suggested that God is limited in power but able to suffer with the pain of the Jewish people. Others stress the compassion and love of God, even if not understood in the Holocaust.
7. Jewish Survival.  The event issues a call for Jewish affirmation for survival. The rise of the nation of Israel is one way of reading this revelation. Emil Fackenheim speaks of the 614th commandment-- ""Jews are forbidden to give Hitler posthumous victories." He further states this as Jews are "commanded to survive as Jews, lest the Jewish people perish;" "to remember the victims of Auschwitz, lest their memory perish;" and they are "forbidden to despair of Man, lest they co-operate in delivering the world to the forces of Auschwitz;" nor "to despair of the God of Israel, lest Judaism perish."
8. Incomprehensible Silence. The Shoah exceeds human comprehension. It is a so horrific as to strip away any attempts at explanation. André Neher believes that there can only be silence after the Holocaust--God's silence and our own.
9. A Theodicy of Protest. If the Holocaust is a mystery, it is nonetheless on the surface a clearly unjust and wicked horror that God should have prevented. What does this then reveal about the character of God? Perhaps God is capable of evil. David Blumenthal has argued that an analogy can be drawn between child abuse and the Holocaust. Children of abusing parents can learn to eventually make their peace with such a parent but should never be required to abstain from challenging the parent's misuse of authority.
10. A Broken Covenant. The Holocaust is proof that God has broken his covenant with the Jewish people. One need not conclude, Irving Greenberg holds, that Jews can still not choose to hold to Jewish law, but it is now only on a voluntary basis.
11. Providential History. Some have suggested the Shoah had the providential outcome of overturning old medieval Jewish structures and replacing them with modern Jewish life, and that this is what needed to happen.
12. Vicarious Suffering. In the Holocaust, the Jewish people become the "suffering servant" of Isaiah, collectively suffering for the sins of the world. Ignaz Maybaum explored this shocking claim, holding that perhaps in the Holocaust Jews even atoned for humanity's wickedness.
13. Coming Messiah. Sha’ar Yashuv Cohen has argued that the Shoah represents the birth pangs of the Messiah, that the Jewish people are in the final days before the Jewish savior finally comes.
14. "Because of our sins we were punished." (mi-penei hataeinu)  Some  in the Orthodox community have taught that European Jews were punished for their sins, either for the heresy of liberal Judaism or for an unfaithful rejection of the Holy Land. In these views, the Shoah is God's just retribution.
15. One More Tragedy. Some would suggest that the Holocaust is not a singular event, but only represents one more horror in human history. From this viewpoint, Jews make too much of the Holocaust as a crisis event that changes everything. David Weiss has taken something like this position.
16. Jewish Reconstruction. The Holocaust is better understood as a historical tragedy, singular or otherwise, that must now be answered with Jewish commitment to the restoration of cultural and ethnic life. Those who survive must rebuild what has been violated and lost.
17. Christian Responsibility. Christians need to face up to the their history of anti-Semitism and the role it played in the Holocaust. Ben Zion Bokser has suggested that Christianity's exclusive view of itself rendered the German people numb to the moral repugnance of Nazi racial theories. Others argue that this culpability should put an end to any exclusive claims on Christianity's part or to any assigning of "second-class" status to Jewish faith. Supersessionism is no longer a credible theology.
18.Jewish Responsibility. Marc Ellis argues that national Israel now uses the rhetoric of the Holocaust to justify the oppression of the Palestinian people. The Holocaust should become a reminder to care for the disadvantaged state of all colonized groups. In a broader way, the Shoah is a reminder that to be a Jew is to be a chosen people, one that must carry out the covenant and bring salvation to others in daily life.
19. Jewish Witness. Jews must not allow despair to shut their testimonies forever. Memory and writing is at the heart of what it means to be Jewish, and the Holocaust is a temptation to hopelessness and to the secular Enlightenment, a project wholly discredited by the Shoah. It is better to keep one's Jewish identity and belief in the face of this. Even God cannot rob Jews of this loyalty.
20. God's Female Face. God was not absent in the Holocaust, rather present in the face of female Jewish sufferers, who by covering themselves and holding to their dignity were bringing the Jewish God into Auschwitz. Melissa Raphael has made this position part of the current Jewish discussion.
21. No Theology nach Auschwitz. Any attempt at theology totalizes the ultimate horror, and by doing so, it lessens the suffering of what happened, as well as opening up humanity to ultimately excusing it and letting it happen again. For some this is a radical negation of any attempt to explain, while for others it is a simple dismissal of religious attempts at an answer. Any talk of God's justice or love makes a mockery of what happened in the Shoah.

The holocaust is where Jewish Theology ends and reality begins for the Jews.

#139
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@Shila
Jews love to interpret everything so that it suits their interests.
you have pretty explicitly and repeatedly crossed any line drawn dividing respectful discourse and (in)formal debate into fallacies and disrespectful language. You have proven a lack of knowledge of Judaism, history, geography, logic and theology. Among others. Your trolling is really poor and your insincerity is apparent. If one were to summarize your anti-Semitic position using the phrase that I quoted, I think that that would apt. Fortunately, with schools opening up, you will be kept busy with Earth Science homework and pre-Algebra tests. Good luck with that.
#140
Shila
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@rosends
Jews love to interpret everything so that it suits their interests.

you have pretty explicitly and repeatedly crossed any line drawn dividing respectful discourse and (in)formal debate into fallacies and disrespectful language. You have proven a lack of knowledge of Judaism, history, geography, logic and theology. Among others. Your trolling is really poor and your insincerity is apparent. If one were to summarize your anti-Semitic position using the phrase that I quoted, I think that that would apt. Fortunately, with schools opening up, you will be kept busy with Earth Science homework and pre-Algebra tests. Good luck with that.
Most people would be surprised to read the many interpretations of the Holocaust held by Jews  who claim there was a lack of knowledge of Judaism, history, geography, logic, poetry, prophecy, Jewish covenant and theology in the extermination of Jews by Europeans.

The many Jewish interpretations of the Holocaust.

Perennial suffering has as much right to expression as the tortured have to scream . . . hence it may have been wrong to say that no poem could be written after Auschwitz."
--Theodore Adorno

Jewish responses to the Shaoh, to the Holocaust, have been understandably multi-faceted:

1. "God is dead." If there were a God, he would surely have prevented the Holocaust. Since God did not prevent it, then God as traditionally understood either does not exist or has changed in some way. For some this means that God has abandoned them, while for others it means God never did exist. Jews must be in the world for themselves.  This may mean a turn to atheism or perhaps a turn to some more like pantheism. Sherman Wine holds that no God can possibly exist, while Richard Rubenstein has come to suggest a kind of neo-paganism as the best alternative.
2. "The Eclipse of God." There are times when God is inexplicably absent from history. Martin Buber made this phrase famous, suggesting that the 20th century was passing through a period where God, for reasons unknowable to us, refused to reveal himself.
3. A Distant God. The experience of the Holocaust calls for Jews to reinterpret their belief in God. God is obviously not a being who actually interferes with human existence in any tangible, measurable way. Arthur A. Cohen holds that God is so transcendent that he cannot be held responsible for the Holocaust.
4. A Limited God. God is not omnipotent. He does not have the power to bring to a halt such things as the Holocaust. Harold Kushner made this view popular in his book, When Bad Things Happen to Good People.
5. Free Will & God. Terrible events such as the Holocaust are the price we have to pay for having free will. God will not and cannot interfere with history, otherwise our free will would effectively cease to exist. Eliezer Berkovits, for example, stresses that God is all-powerful but that he curtails his own freedom to respect human freedom, even with such horrific consequences.
6.  A Suffering God. Borrowing from Christian reflection on Christ and the passibility of God, Hans Jonas has suggested that God is limited in power but able to suffer with the pain of the Jewish people. Others stress the compassion and love of God, even if not understood in the Holocaust.
7. Jewish Survival.  The event issues a call for Jewish affirmation for survival. The rise of the nation of Israel is one way of reading this revelation. Emil Fackenheim speaks of the 614th commandment-- ""Jews are forbidden to give Hitler posthumous victories." He further states this as Jews are "commanded to survive as Jews, lest the Jewish people perish;" "to remember the victims of Auschwitz, lest their memory perish;" and they are "forbidden to despair of Man, lest they co-operate in delivering the world to the forces of Auschwitz;" nor "to despair of the God of Israel, lest Judaism perish."
8. Incomprehensible Silence. The Shoah exceeds human comprehension. It is a so horrific as to strip away any attempts at explanation. André Neher believes that there can only be silence after the Holocaust--God's silence and our own.
9. A Theodicy of Protest. If the Holocaust is a mystery, it is nonetheless on the surface a clearly unjust and wicked horror that God should have prevented. What does this then reveal about the character of God? Perhaps God is capable of evil. David Blumenthal has argued that an analogy can be drawn between child abuse and the Holocaust. Children of abusing parents can learn to eventually make their peace with such a parent but should never be required to abstain from challenging the parent's misuse of authority.
10. A Broken Covenant. The Holocaust is proof that God has broken his covenant with the Jewish people. One need not conclude, Irving Greenberg holds, that Jews can still not choose to hold to Jewish law, but it is now only on a voluntary basis.
11. Providential History. Some have suggested the Shoah had the providential outcome of overturning old medieval Jewish structures and replacing them with modern Jewish life, and that this is what needed to happen.
12. Vicarious Suffering. In the Holocaust, the Jewish people become the "suffering servant" of Isaiah, collectively suffering for the sins of the world. Ignaz Maybaum explored this shocking claim, holding that perhaps in the Holocaust Jews even atoned for humanity's wickedness.
13. Coming Messiah. Sha’ar Yashuv Cohen has argued that the Shoah represents the birth pangs of the Messiah, that the Jewish people are in the final days before the Jewish savior finally comes.
14. "Because of our sins we were punished." (mi-penei hataeinu)  Some  in the Orthodox community have taught that European Jews were punished for their sins, either for the heresy of liberal Judaism or for an unfaithful rejection of the Holy Land. In these views, the Shoah is God's just retribution.
15. One More Tragedy. Some would suggest that the Holocaust is not a singular event, but only represents one more horror in human history. From this viewpoint, Jews make too much of the Holocaust as a crisis event that changes everything. David Weiss has taken something like this position.
16. Jewish Reconstruction. The Holocaust is better understood as a historical tragedy, singular or otherwise, that must now be answered with Jewish commitment to the restoration of cultural and ethnic life. Those who survive must rebuild what has been violated and lost.
17. Christian Responsibility. Christians need to face up to the their history of anti-Semitism and the role it played in the Holocaust. Ben Zion Bokser has suggested that Christianity's exclusive view of itself rendered the German people numb to the moral repugnance of Nazi racial theories. Others argue that this culpability should put an end to any exclusive claims on Christianity's part or to any assigning of "second-class" status to Jewish faith. Supersessionism is no longer a credible theology.
18.Jewish Responsibility. Marc Ellis argues that national Israel now uses the rhetoric of the Holocaust to justify the oppression of the Palestinian people. The Holocaust should become a reminder to care for the disadvantaged state of all colonized groups. In a broader way, the Shoah is a reminder that to be a Jew is to be a chosen people, one that must carry out the covenant and bring salvation to others in daily life.
19. Jewish Witness. Jews must not allow despair to shut their testimonies forever. Memory and writing is at the heart of what it means to be Jewish, and the Holocaust is a temptation to hopelessness and to the secular Enlightenment, a project wholly discredited by the Shoah. It is better to keep one's Jewish identity and belief in the face of this. Even God cannot rob Jews of this loyalty.
20. God's Female Face. God was not absent in the Holocaust, rather present in the face of female Jewish sufferers, who by covering themselves and holding to their dignity were bringing the Jewish God into Auschwitz. Melissa Raphael has made this position part of the current Jewish discussion.
21. No Theology nach Auschwitz. Any attempt at theology totalizes the ultimate horror, and by doing so, it lessens the suffering of what happened, as well as opening up humanity to ultimately excusing it and letting it happen again. For some this is a radical negation of any attempt to explain, while for others it is a simple dismissal of religious attempts at an answer. Any talk of God's justice or love makes a mockery of what happened in the Shoah.

The holocaust is where Jewish Theology ends and reality begins for the Jews.