The implicit Resurrection within the Jewish system

Author: Tradesecret

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#1
Tradesecret
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Why is it that the Jewish calendar amongst all of the calendars in the history of humanity has the day set out like "it was evening and it was morning and this was the 6th day? Jewish Time (simpletoremember.com)

What is so significant about this way of putting the way the day looks that is obviously more than just poetry?

It is because it is an inbuilt design by God to the Jewish people that resurrection is his plan for his people.  

In the evening we go to sleep, in other words we die, and then in the morning we rise, we are resurrected.  

Now we may be able to suggest this is true of the rest of the world's calendars, after all we go to sleep and then in the morning rise.  

Yet, the significance in symbolism is profound.  In the Biblical picture - resurrection takes place during the daytime. Not just in the morning. But at the high point of the day.   

For the Greek - resurrection comes after the day is finished. Hence, do we have life after we have finished living. For the Jew, it was injected into their belief system from the time they came about that - life or resurrection with God - begins in the daytime - while they were still living and breathing and before the day was finished. 

Abraham believed in the resurrection - this is why he trusted God with his Son. Jesus believed in the resurrection this is why he trusted his Father with his Son. 

Our Sleep patterns are a picture of resurrection. An inbuilt one. 

The pictures are all the way through the OT.  Joseph was thrown into the pit - to die - and he was brought out resurrected.  Daniel was thrown into the pit of lions to die - but he was resurrected.    The three men were thrown into the fire to die - but they came out resurrected.   There are many other examples of this picture of resurrection in the OT.  This of course was God putting into the hearts and minds of his people about the reality of the resurrection of which Jesus the Son of God would be the first fruits of. 

Another interesting side point - the two Jewish religious groups mentioned in the NT, the Pharisees and the Sadducees - were often pitted against each other. They both had polar opposite positions in relation to the resurrection. The Pharisees, believed in the resurrection and the Sadducees did not. And interestingly, this point was one which brought them both together and also caused them division. 

The Resurrection of Jesus was effectively prophesied from when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, it was continuously brought to the Jewish people's attention throughout its history - but not just because of Jesus - who would the highpoint of Resurrection - but then all who sleep in Christ would rise and be resurrected with him on the last day. 

Another wonderful little point - at the time Jesus died - Matthew records -  many in the graves were brought up from the dead and were seen walking about the city.  The point being that Jesus' death was the door by which people are resurrected.   

The evening and the morning - a picture - a delightful picture - injected into the psyche of the Jews, but also the rest of the world.  


#2
BrotherDThomas
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@Stephen
@Tradesecret
@Bones

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TRADESECRET, whose gender went from a woman to a man, and now unknown, the Debate Runaway on Jesus' true MO,  Bible denier of Jesus being the Trinity God in the OT, the runaway to what division of Christianity he/she/unknown follows, the pseudo-christian that has committed the Unpardonable Sin, the number 1 Bible ignorant fool regarding Noah's ark, the pseudo-christian that says kids that curse their parents should be killed, states there is FICTION within the scriptures, and is guilty of Revelation 22:18-19 and 2 Timothy 4:3, AN ADMITTED SEXUAL DEVIANT, and had ungodly Gender Reassignment Surgery, Satanic Bible Rewriter, an embarrassed LIAR of their true gender, and goes against Jesus in not helping the poor, has turned into a HYPOCRITE, and a LIAR,


WOW, Jesus H. Christ, you're off to the dumbfounded of the Bible pseudo-christian races AGAIN!  NOT ONCE, have you given biblical citations to your otherwise questionable opinions, not once!  When you actually "grow up" in not using "your opinions" in bringing forth discussions upon this forum, maybe other members will take you seriously! Good luck in having that to ever happen! LOL!

JESUS' INSPIRED WORDS RELATIVE TO YOUR POST: "A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion." (Proverbs 18:2)



TRADESECRET, GUESS WHAT?  You are only 4 runaway posts from me away to make you the complete Bible stupid and ignorant pseudo-christian again upon this esteemed forum, praise Jesus!  I know, the current holder of this position is FAUXLAW, where he is really going to be upset with you because he is holding this cherished #1 status position now, of which was the ONLY thing that he had going for him in this Religion Forum.  When you take over again soon, maybe you can send FAUXLAW a "sympathy card," yes?  That would be nice. :)

Should we hold a DEBATEART recognition party in you being the #1 Bible fool again?  Let us know, okay?  Thanks.

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#3
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@Tradesecret
In the evening we go to sleep, in other words we die, and then in the morning we rise, we are resurrected.

" Vertical is to live, as horizontal is to die "...Bucky Fuller { ' Earth Inc ' 1973 } and that is four years after his " Utopia or Oblivion " excerpts of his talks book }.

 ..we are the  stuff of stars or cosmic star stuff. {?} ...Carl Sagan 1980's?


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@ebuc
Interesting. 
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#5
Tradesecret
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@BrotherDThomas
Not once did you actually address the topic.  


#6
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@Tradesecret
As profound as you want it to be.


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@Tradesecret

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TRADESECRET, whose gender went from a woman to a man, and now unknown, the Debate Runaway on Jesus' true MO,  Bible denier of Jesus being the Trinity God in the OT, the runaway to what division of Christianity he/she/unknown follows, the pseudo-christian that has committed the Unpardonable Sin, the number 1 Bible ignorant fool regarding Noah's ark, the pseudo-christian that says kids that curse their parents should be killed, states there is FICTION within the scriptures, and is guilty of Revelation 22:18-19 and 2 Timothy 4:3, AN ADMITTED SEXUAL DEVIANT, and had ungodly Gender Reassignment Surgery, Satanic Bible Rewriter, an embarrassed LIAR of their true gender, and goes against Jesus in not helping the poor, has turned into a HYPOCRITE, and a LIAR,


YOUR QUOTE TO ME IN TRYING TO SAVE YOURSELF WITHIN THIS THREAD: 'Not once did you actually address the topic."

Uh, Jesus did address your "opinionated" post, where what part of Jesus' verse herewith didn't you understand:  "A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion." (Proverbs 18:2).    When you support your claims in your post, then Jesus and I will address your topic, understood?  If you are going to give this forum further threads, here is an idea, actually give biblical citations to support your otherwise opinionated views like Jesus and I do.  Furthermore, DO NOT remove one foot from your mouth to insert the other when chastising a member because they "allegedly" didn't address the topic, when Jesus' inspired words actually did, understood Bible fool?


Here, let Jesus and I "SCHOOL YOU" once again in front of the membership relative to your, at this time, opinionated quotes as follows:

1. "It is because it is an inbuilt design by God to the Jewish people that resurrection is his plan for his people."  Bible citation is where?

2. "In the evening we go to sleep, in other words we die, and then in the morning we rise, we are resurrected." Bible citation is where?

3. "Abraham believed in the resurrection - this is why he trusted God with his Son. Jesus believed in the resurrection this is why he trusted his Father with his Son."  Bible citation is where?

4. "Our Sleep patterns are a picture of resurrection. An inbuilt one."   Bible citation is where?

5. "Joseph was thrown into the pit - to die - and he was brought out resurrected.  Daniel was thrown into the pit of lions to die - but he was resurrected.    The three men were thrown into the fire to die - but they came out resurrected."  Bible citations for the above instances is where?

6. "There are many other examples of this picture of resurrection in the OT."  Since there are many, list at least 5 Bible citations supporting your claim

7. "This of course was God putting into the hearts and minds of his people about the reality of the resurrection of which Jesus the Son of God would be the first fruits of. " Bible citation is where?

8. "The Pharisees, believed in the resurrection and the Sadducees did not. And interestingly, this point was one which brought them both together and also caused them division. "  Bible citation is where?

9. "The Resurrection of Jesus was effectively prophesied from when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden," Bible citation is where?



Tradesecret, to "try" and give you at least a modicum of validity within this forum, *cough,* support your "opinions" at this  time as shown above with actual Biblical axioms. If you cannot perform this simple act, then they remain nothing but your opinions of one person and fall flat upon their proverbial face in the overall scheme of things and the truth relating to Christianity!  Get it?

BEGIN:

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#8
Stephen
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@BrotherDThomas
Here, let Jesus and I "SCHOOL YOU" once again in front of the membership relative to your, at this time, opinionated quotes as follows:

1. "It is because it is an inbuilt design by God to the Jewish people that resurrection is his plan for his people."  Bible citation is where?

2. "In the evening we go to sleep, in other words we die, and then in the morning we rise, we are resurrected." Bible citation is where?

3. "Abraham believed in the resurrection - this is why he trusted God with his Son. Jesus believed in the resurrection this is why he trusted his Father with his Son."  Bible citation is where?

4. "Our Sleep patterns are a picture of resurrection. An inbuilt one."   Bible citation is where?

5. "Joseph was thrown into the pit - to die - and he was brought out resurrected.  Daniel was thrown into the pit of lions to die - but he was resurrected.    The three men were thrown into the fire to die - but they came out resurrected."  Bible citations for the above instances is where?

6. "There are many other examples of this picture of resurrection in the OT."  Since there are many, list at least 5 Bible citations supporting your claim

7. "This of course was God putting into the hearts and minds of his people about the reality of the resurrection of which Jesus the Son of God would be the first fruits of. " Bible citation is where?

8. "The Pharisees, believed in the resurrection and the Sadducees did not. And interestingly, this point was one which brought them both together and also caused them division. "  Bible citation is where?

9. "The Resurrection of Jesus was effectively prophesied from when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden," Bible citation is where?

And this I take it, Brother is what those Universities pay good money for from the " accredited "Tradey" Tradesecret. These students just have to sit back,  listen and suck it up without rebuttal or questioning.

Don't expect anything civil in the way of replies, answers or biblical citation, Brother. You know its not coming.
And  do not throw a spanner in his works just yet Brother,  although I too am itching to throw up Ecclesiastes right now, I will restrain myself.

#9
rosends
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@Tradesecret
You came to the conclusion that the statement of evening and morning constituting the day can be understood to say that " it is an inbuilt design by God to the Jewish people that resurrection is his plan for his people."

That’s a fanciful conclusion to draw – not that Judaism doesn’t have an idea of resurrection in it, but I haven’t heard any Jewish thinkers tying it to this construction of the day. The phraseology of evening and morning established the structure of a day which has practical implications in how we fulfil certain commandments. But it isn’t tied to resurrection.
 
Judaism DOES have an idea that sleep is a mini-version of death (the oral law speaks of sleep as “one sixtieth of death”) and this has additional implications in terms of ritual impurity and the morning’s need for hand washing.
 
It is perfectly fine for you to speak of Christianity’s seeing these and other biblical events as symbolic or allusions (“shadows” is often a word I hear used) but that’s not how they work in Judaism.
 
The same can be said of your representation of the division between Sadducees and Pharisees (we would call them Tzedukim and Prushim). Jewish history records important differences of opinion, but not, if I recall correctly, about the idea of resurrection. That is a Christian version of things.
 
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@Stephen
@Tradesecret


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Stephen,

YOUR REVEALING QUOTE IN TRADESECRET BEING A MINON OF SATAN: "And this I take it, Brother is what those Universities pay good money for from the " accredited "Tradey" Tradesecret. These students just have to sit back,  listen and suck it up without rebuttal or questioning."

When Tradesecret allows themselves to preach at ANY University, it becomes the "blind leading the blind" at best!  We, and TS, have to ask ourselves, how can Tradesecret even be able to sleep at night in knowing that certain members of this esteemed forum have easily made TS an outright biblical fool!  If only said Universities could read about Tradesecret within this forum alone, in what TS thought they knew, but didn't relative to the JUDEO-Christian Bible, subsequent to correcting them of same, Tradesecret would be reduced to the streets trying to sell pencils and note paper!

Subjectively, here I thought FAUXLAW was the #1 Bible RUNAWAY fool, but then TRADESECRET pulls out all stops recently and is now on the way to being the #1 Bible fool AGAIN within this forum, which will be shown soon at their expense!  Jesus will NOT be smiling in behalf of Tradesecret: "Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid." (Proverbs 12:1)

Stephen, since Tradesecret is an alleged teacher, *COUGH.* I am just following the prophet James in his following statement: "Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness." (James 3:1)

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Stephen
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@BrotherDThomas


 We, and TS, have to ask ourselves, how can Tradesecret even be able to sleep at night in knowing that certain members of this esteemed forum have easily made TS an outright biblical fool!  

Well with a workload that he claims to have Brother ( I won't list it here) ,  he has no time to sleep, does he`?





Stephen, since Tradesecret is an alleged teacher, *COUGH.* I am just following the prophet James in his following statement: "Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness." (James 3:1)

Indeed Brother, but many  attempt to rise above their station. But it is his call at the end of the day and he his "qualified" and "accredited" to take on the more awkward and difficult questions, is he not?

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BrotherDThomas
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@Stephen
@Tradesecret

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TRADESECRET, whose gender went from a woman to a man, and now unknown, the Debate Runaway on Jesus' true MO,  Bible denier of Jesus being the Trinity God in the OT, the runaway to what division of Christianity he/she/unknown follows, the pseudo-christian that has committed the Unpardonable Sin, the number 1 Bible ignorant fool regarding Noah's ark, the pseudo-christian that says kids that curse their parents should be killed, states there is FICTION within the scriptures, and is guilty of Revelation 22:18-19 and 2 Timothy 4:3, AN ADMITTED SEXUAL DEVIANT, and had ungodly Gender Reassignment Surgery, Satanic Bible Rewriter, an embarrassed LIAR of their true gender, and goes against Jesus in not helping the poor, has turned into a HYPOCRITE, and a LIAR,


Whoops, it looks like you couldn't find the citations needed to back up your weak mish-mash "OPINIONS" as shown in my following post # 7 within this thread: 
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/6542/post-links/281245.  Comically, you RUN AWAY from your own posts! LOL!

Seriously, how can you remain upon this esteemed forum, where in fact, you have absolutely no business being here in the first place because of your new status as being the #1 Bible stupid, ignorant, and runaway of same?!  
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#13
PGA2.0
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@rosends
It is perfectly fine for you to speak of Christianity’s seeing these and other biblical events as symbolic or allusions (“shadows” is often a word I hear used) but that’s not how they work in Judaism.
He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him.

They, His people, Israel, for the most part, did not recognize Him as their Messiah.

***

I would not say "allusions" but the greater reality that many Jews missed. They failed to see the spiritual significance that Yeshua spoke of, the types and shadows pointed to by the lesser Old Covenant (Mosaic covenant) physical reality.

All the prophecies that pointed to the Jewish Messiah, how are they fulfilled after AD 70 when the covenant can no longer be met as stipulated by the Law?

The Mosaic Law that the covenant was built around, how can it be fulfilled after AD 70?

Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 24
3So Moses came and told the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances, and all the people answered in unison and said, "All the words that the Lord has spoken we will do."
altar.
 
7And he took the Book of the Covenant and read it within the hearing of the people, and they said, "All that the Lord spoke we will do and we will hear."
 
זוַיִּקַּח֙ סֵ֣פֶר הַבְּרִ֔ית וַיִּקְרָ֖א בְּאָזְנֵ֣י הָעָ֑ם וַיֹּ֣אמְר֔וּ כֹּ֛ל אֲשֶׁר־דִּבֶּ֥ר יְהֹוָ֖ה נַֽעֲשֶׂ֥ה וְנִשְׁמָֽע:

Was not God displeased with His people? Did He not bring judgment (the curses) upon them, per Deuteronomy 28, in the form of the destruction of their city and temple as promised by the prophets and the Law?

Did He not say He would create a new covenant with Israel?

Yirmiyahu - Jeremiah - Chapter 31
30Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant.
 
להִנֵּ֛ה יָמִ֥ים בָּאִ֖ים נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֑ה וְכָֽרַתִּ֗י אֶת־בֵּ֧ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֛ל וְאֶת־בֵּ֥ית יְהוּדָ֖ה בְּרִ֥ית חֲדָשָֽׁה:
31Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord.
 
לאלֹ֣א כַבְּרִ֗ית אֲשֶׁ֚ר כָּרַ֙תִּי֙ אֶת־אֲבוֹתָ֔ם בְּיוֹם֙ הֶֽחֱזִיקִ֣י בְיָדָ֔ם לְהֽוֹצִיאָ֖ם מֵאֶ֖רֶץ מִצְרָ֑יִם אֲשֶׁר־הֵ֜מָּה הֵפֵ֣רוּ אֶת־בְּרִיתִ֗י וְאָֽנֹכִ֛י בָּעַ֥לְתִּי בָ֖ם נְאֻם־יְהֹוָֽה:
32For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people.
 
לבכִּ֣י זֹ֣את הַבְּרִ֡ית אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶכְרֹת֩ אֶת־בֵּ֨ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל אַֽחֲרֵ֨י הַיָּמִ֚ים הָהֵם֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה נָתַ֚תִּי אֶת־תּֽוֹרָתִי֙ בְּקִרְבָּ֔ם וְעַל־לִבָּ֖ם אֶכְתֳּבֶ֑נָּה וְהָיִ֚יתִי לָהֶם֙ לֵֽאלֹהִ֔ים וְהֵ֖מָּה יִֽהְיוּ־לִ֥י לְעָֽם:
33And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.
 
לגוְלֹ֧א יְלַמְּד֣וּ ע֗וֹד אִ֣ישׁ אֶת־רֵעֵ֜הוּ וְאִ֚ישׁ אֶת־אָחִיו֙ לֵאמֹ֔ר דְּע֖וּ אֶת־יְהֹוָ֑ה כִּֽי־כוּלָּם֩ יֵֽדְע֨וּ אוֹתִ֜י לְמִקְּטַנָּ֚ם וְעַד־גְּדוֹלָם֙ נְאֻם־יְהֹוָ֔ה כִּ֚י אֶסְלַח֙ לַֽעֲו‍ֹנָ֔ם וּלְחַטָּאתָ֖ם לֹ֥א אֶזְכָּר־עֽוֹד:

Did He not promise the Messiah to this old covenant people before the covenant was replaced?

Daniel - Chapter 9 
כגבִּתְחִלַּ֨ת תַּֽחֲנוּנֶ֜יךָ יָצָ֣א דָבָ֗ר וַֽאֲנִי֙ בָּ֣אתִי לְהַגִּ֔יד כִּ֥י חֲמוּד֖וֹת אָ֑תָּה וּבִין֙ בַּדָּבָ֔ר וְהָבֵ֖ן בַּמַּרְאֶֽה:
24Seventy weeks [of years] have been decreed upon your people and upon the city of your Sanctuary to terminate the transgression and to end sin, and to expiate iniquity, and to bring eternal righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.
 
כדשָֽׁבֻעִ֨ים שִׁבְעִ֜ים נֶחְתַּ֥ךְ עַל־עַמְּךָ֣ | וְעַל־עִ֣יר קָדְשֶׁ֗ךָ לְכַלֵּ֨א הַפֶּ֜שַׁע וּלְהָתֵ֚ם (כתיב וּלְחָתֵ֚ם) חַטָּאוֹת֙ וּלְכַפֵּ֣ר עָו‍ֹ֔ן וּלְהָבִ֖יא צֶ֣דֶק עֹֽלָמִ֑ים וְלַחְתֹּם֙ חָז֣וֹן וְנָבִ֔יא וְלִמְשֹׁ֖חַ קֹ֥דֶשׁ קָֽדָשִֽׁים:
25And you shall know and understand that from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king [shall be] seven weeks, and [for] sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times.
 
כהוְתֵדַ֨ע וְתַשְׂכֵּ֜ל מִן־מֹצָ֣א דָבָ֗ר לְהָשִׁיב֙ וְלִבְנ֚וֹת יְרֽוּשָׁלִַ֙ם֙ עַד־מָשִׁ֣יחַ נָגִ֔יד שָֽׁבֻעִ֖ים שִׁבְעָ֑ה וְשָֽׁבֻעִ֞ים שִׁשִּׁ֣ים וּשְׁנַ֗יִם תָּשׁוּב֙ וְנִבְנְתָה֙ רְח֣וֹב וְחָר֔וּץ וּבְצ֖וֹק הָעִתִּֽים:
26And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.
 
כווְאַֽחֲרֵ֚י הַשָּֽׁבֻעִים֙ שִׁשִּׁ֣ים וּשְׁנַ֔יִם יִכָּרֵ֥ת מָשִׁ֖יחַ וְאֵ֣ין ל֑וֹ וְהָעִ֨יר וְהַקֹּ֜דֶשׁ יַ֠שְׁחִית עַ֣ם נָגִ֚יד הַבָּא֙ וְקִצּ֣וֹ בַשֶּׁ֔טֶף וְעַד֙ קֵ֣ץ מִלְחָמָ֔ה נֶֽחֱרֶ֖צֶת שֹֽׁמֵמֽוֹת:
27And he will strengthen a covenant for the princes for one week, and half the week he will abolish sacrifice and meal- offering, and on high, among abominations, will be the dumb one, and until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one.
 
כזוְהִגְבִּ֥יר בְּרִ֛ית לָֽרַבִּ֖ים שָׁב֣וּעַ אֶחָ֑ד וַֽחֲצִ֨י הַשָּׁב֜וּעַ יַשְׁבִּ֣ית | זֶ֣בַח וּמִנְחָ֗ה וְעַ֨ל כְּנַ֚ף שִׁקּוּצִים֙ מְשֹׁמֵ֔ם וְעַד־כָּלָה֙ וְנֶ֣חֱרָצָ֔ה תִּתַּ֖ךְ עַל־שׁוֹמֵֽם:

When was eternal righteousness established? It was brought by Yeshua, who fulfilled every jot of the Law of Moses. 

***

Moses said,

Deuteronomy 18:15-18

New American Standard Bible

15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen; to him you shall listen. 16 This is in accordance with everything that you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Do not let me hear the voice of the Lord my God again, and do not let me see this great fire anymore, or I will die!’ 17 And the Lord said to me, ‘They have [a]spoken well. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them everything that I command him.


Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 18
15A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the Lord, your God will set up for you; you shall hearken to him.
 
טונָבִ֨יא מִקִּרְבְּךָ֤ מֵֽאַחֶ֨יךָ֙ כָּמֹ֔נִי יָקִ֥ים לְךָ֖ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֑יךָ אֵלָ֖יו תִּשְׁמָעֽוּן:
16According to all that you asked of the Lord, your God, in Horeb, on the day of the assembly, saying, "Let me not continue to hear the voice of the Lord, my God, and let me no longer see this great fire, so that I will not die."
 
טזכְּכֹ֨ל אֲשֶׁר־שָׁאַ֜לְתָּ מֵעִ֨ם יְהֹוָ֤ה אֱלֹהֶ֨יךָ֙ בְּחֹרֵ֔ב בְּי֥וֹם הַקָּהָ֖ל לֵאמֹ֑ר לֹ֣א אֹסֵ֗ף לִשְׁמֹ֨עַ֙ אֶת־קוֹל֙ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהָ֔י וְאֶת־הָאֵ֨שׁ הַגְּדֹלָ֥ה הַזֹּ֛את לֹֽא־אֶרְאֶ֥ה ע֖וֹד וְלֹ֥א אָמֽוּת:
17And the Lord said to me, "They have done well in what they have spoken.
 
יזוַיֹּ֥אמֶר יְהֹוָ֖ה אֵלָ֑י הֵיטִ֖יבוּ אֲשֶׁ֥ר דִּבֵּֽרוּ:
18I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him.
 
יחנָבִ֨יא אָקִ֥ים לָהֶ֛ם מִקֶּ֥רֶב אֲחֵיהֶ֖ם כָּמ֑וֹךָ וְנָֽתַתִּ֤י דְבָרַי֙ בְּפִ֔יו וְדִבֶּ֣ר אֲלֵיהֶ֔ם אֵ֖ת כָּל־אֲשֶׁ֥ר אֲצַוֶּֽנּוּ:
19And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him.

Now I realize most Jews have a slightly different take on this, for they mistakenly include all the prophets sent, per the commentary:

[A prophet] from among you, from your brothers, like me: This means: Just as I am among you, from your brothers, so will He set up for you [another prophet] in my stead, and so on, from prophet to prophet.

***

On a side-note, what is applied to God in the OT is applied to Jesus in the NT.

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@rosends
You came to the conclusion that the statement of evening and morning constituting the day can be understood to say that " it is an inbuilt design by God to the Jewish people that resurrection is his plan for his people."
It may be a little stretched yet I have not looked into it and the NT reveals that the whole OT speaks (especially the reference in Luke 24:32) of Jesus/Yeshua, so then again, it could be a valid point. A reasonable deduction in the NT is the comparison of the time Jonah spent in the whale to the time Jesus spent in the ground. Jonah being released from the whale/sea monster was like a resurrection. He was given new life. After the three days in the ground Jesus was resurrected to life again.

for just as Jonah was in the stomach of the sea monster for three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

An evil and adulterous generation wants a sign; and so a sign will not be given to it, except the sign of Jonah.” And He left them and went away.

The Sign of Jonah
Now as the crowds were increasing, He began to say, “This generation is a wicked generation; it demands a sign, and so no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.

For just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so will the Son of Man be to this generation.

The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.









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@Stephen
@PGA2.0
@rosends


PGA2.0,

Hey, its great you are back once again subsequent to me easily Bible Slapping you Silly!  Jesus and I can see that you are healed enough to reenter this forum, whereas rosends has healed as well after Jesus and I bludgeoned him up as well, where what rosends thought they knew relative to his faith, he didn't after I had to correct him in embarrassment.

So many False Prophets upon this forum like you two represent, and so little time to easily refute them, praise my serial killer Jesus as Yahweh God incarnate!

.


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John 1:11
He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him.
 
They, His people, Israel, for the most part, did not recognize Him as their Messiah.
so you are trying to explain something to me by citing a book which I don’t see as authoritative or useful? Got it.
 
I would not say "allusions" but the greater reality that many Jews missed. They failed to see the spiritual significance that Yeshua spoke of, the types and shadows pointed to by the lesser Old Covenant (Mosaic covenant) physical reality.
and instead of “allusions” I might say “fantasies” as others invented and innovated things that were no where in the original.
 
All the prophecies that pointed to the Jewish Messiah, how are they fulfilled after AD 70 when the covenant can no longer be met as stipulated by the Law?
Just because you don’t understand the nature of the covenant doesn’t mean that your assessment of its applicability is correct. In fact, it means the exact opposite.
 
The Mosaic Law that the covenant was built around, how can it be fulfilled after AD 70?
because built into the system was a replacement for sacrifices. That’s textual. You didn’t know that?

Was not God displeased with His people? Did He not bring judgment (the curses) upon them, per Deuteronomy 28, in the form of the destruction of their city and temple as promised by the prophets and the Law?
yes, we are being punished, but we still follow the laws. We don’t throw them out and claim that they are somehow “fulfilled.” They say they are eternal.
 
Did He not say He would create a new covenant with Israel?
in nature, yes. In content and parties, no.
 
Did He not promise the Messiah to this old covenant people before the covenant was replaced?
the covenant was not replaced. It was established through a different medium. Same content.

When was eternal righteousness established? It was brought by Yeshua, who fulfilled every jot of the Law of Moses.
wrong on at least 3 levels. Jesus wasn’t righteous. There is no name “Yeshua” and laws aren’t fulfilled. I can find more levels if you really want.
 
Now I realize most Jews have a slightly different take on this, for they mistakenly include all the prophets sent, per the commentary:
ah, so Jews don’t understand the text given to Jews which makes reference to the exact prophet that you already quoted from in your original message. Got it.
 
On a side-note, what is applied to God in the OT is applied to Jesus in the NT.
that is certainly your fantastical belief

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@PGA2.0
It may be a little stretched yet I have not looked into it and the NT reveals that the whole OT speaks (especially the reference in Luke 24:32) of Jesus/Yeshua

it is more than stretched -- it is nonsensical. I'm sure people can say that Jesus is spoken of in the Quran, or the BofM or the Harry Potter series. Is that conclusive and persuasive to you?
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PGA2.0,

Hey, its great you are back once again subsequent to me easily Bible Slapping you Silly!  Jesus and I can see that you are healed enough to reenter this forum, whereas rosends has healed as well after Jesus and I bludgeoned him up as well, where what rosends thought they knew relative to his faith, he didn't after I had to correct him in embarrassment.

So many False Prophets upon this forum like you two represent, and so little time to easily refute them, praise my serial killer Jesus as Yahweh God incarnate!

Yes, you are an authority unto yourself!
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@Tradesecret

.
PGA2.0,

YOUR LYING QUOTE ONCE AGAIN RELATIVE TO ME EASILY BIBLE SLAPPING YOU SILLY: "Yes, you are an authority unto yourself!"

As is shown when I make you the continued Bible fool, the "authority" comes from the word of Jesus Himself. Therefore, when you continue to step out of line relative to His exact words in the name of Satan, I bring forth His words, and at which point, you RUN AWAY just like Tradesecret does!  LOL!

Your embarrassment once again is excused at this time.

NEXT?

.

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@rosends
John 1:11
He came to His own, and His own people did not accept Him.
 
They, His people, Israel, for the most part, did not recognize Him as their Messiah.
so you are trying to explain something to me by citing a book which I don’t see as authoritative or useful? Got it. 
 Yes, I am trying to explain from a Christian perspective and opening up to you the consideration that you do not recognize your Messiah, just like 1st century Israel did not (for the most part). 

I would not say "allusions" but the greater reality that many Jews missed. They failed to see the spiritual significance that Yeshua spoke of, the types and shadows pointed to by the lesser Old Covenant (Mosaic covenant) physical reality.
and instead of “allusions” I might say “fantasies” as others invented and innovated things that were no where in the original.
 
There are way too many prophecies that you cannot explain away for them to be fantasies, rather fulfillment. 

All the prophecies that pointed to the Jewish Messiah, how are they fulfilled after AD 70 when the covenant can no longer be met as stipulated by the Law?
Just because you don’t understand the nature of the covenant doesn’t mean that your assessment of its applicability is correct. In fact, it means the exact opposite. 
I could say the same of you. Those are just assertions on your part. 

Can you, today, apply the sacrificial system as mandated by the Law of Moses as prescribed in the Torah? If not I have made my point.

The Mosaic Law that the covenant was built around, how can it be fulfilled after AD 70?
because built into the system was a replacement for sacrifices. That’s textual. You didn’t know that?
Yes, a replacement that I believe you failed to identify. The NT concerns the replacement and goes into great detail over it. 

Was not God displeased with His people? Did He not bring judgment (the curses) upon them, per Deuteronomy 28, in the form of the destruction of their city and temple as promised by the prophets and the Law?
yes, we are being punished, but we still follow the laws. We don’t throw them out and claim that they are somehow “fulfilled.” They say they are eternal. 
I think the punishment was fulfilled in AD 70. 

How are you following the laws as prescribed in the Torah? I do not see animal sacrifices as prescribed for atonement. 

What happened to the Levitical priesthood? 

Did He not say He would create a new covenant with Israel?
in nature, yes. In content and parties, no. 
So what happened to the Old Covenant? You say you are still following it yet I see no indication that you are, as prescribed by the Law.

Did He not promise the Messiah to this old covenant people before the covenant was replaced?
the covenant was not replaced. It was established through a different medium. Same content.
That is where you and I disagree. 

Before the fall of Jerusalem one writer of the NT said,

Hebrews 8:13
New American Standard Bible

13 [a]When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is [b]about to disappear.

I don't see the ceremonial aspects continued after AD 70. Jesus/Yeshua said,

Matthew 5:17-18
New American Standard Bible

17 “Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [a]the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!

As a Christian I believe Jesus has met every righteous aspect of the Law, thus fulfilling it. The NT goes into depth regard this point. 


When was eternal righteousness established? It was brought by Yeshua, who fulfilled every jot of the Law of Moses.
wrong on at least 3 levels. Jesus wasn’t righteous. There is no name “Yeshua” and laws aren’t fulfilled. I can find more levels if you really want. 
No name Yeshua? 

Sure, go ahead. Supply more than assertions. 

Now I realize most Jews have a slightly different take on this, for they mistakenly include all the prophets sent, per the commentary:
ah, so Jews don’t understand the text given to Jews which makes reference to the exact prophet that you already quoted from in your original message. Got it. 
I said most. The NT writers were most Jews, as was Jesus. 

On a side-note, what is applied to God in the OT is applied to Jesus in the NT.
That is certainly your fantastical belief

Again, your assertion. There is good evidence for such a belief. I can demonstrate, time after time that what I said is so. 

Take one example of what is applied to God in the OT as being applied to Jesus in the NT:

I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.


Yeshayahu - Isaiah - Chapter 45
23By Myself I swore, righteousness emanated from My mouth, a word, and it shall not be retracted, that to Me shall every knee kneel, every tongue shall swear."
 
כגבִּ֣י נִשְׁבַּ֔עְתִּי יָצָ֨א מִפִּ֧י צְדָקָ֛ה דָּבָ֖ר וְלֹ֣א יָשׁ֑וּב כִּי־לִי֙ תִּכְרַ֣ע כָּל־בֶּ֔רֶךְ תִּשָּׁבַ֖ע כָּל־לָשֽׁוֹן:

The NT fulfillment as applied to Jesus:

Philippians 2:9-11
New American Standard Bible

9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

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It may be a little stretched yet I have not looked into it and the NT reveals that the whole OT speaks (especially the reference in Luke 24:32) of Jesus/Yeshua

it is more than stretched -- it is nonsensical. I'm sure people can say that Jesus is spoken of in the Quran, or the BofM or the Harry Potter series. Is that conclusive and persuasive to you?

Nope. None of those listed are persuasive or conclusive as to the deity of Jesus. Only the OT and NT are because I recognize both as Holy Scripture. 
#22
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@BrotherDThomas
YOUR LYING QUOTE ONCE AGAIN RELATIVE TO ME EASILY BIBLE SLAPPING YOU SILLY: "Yes, you are an authority unto yourself!"

As is shown when I make you the continued Bible fool, the "authority" comes from the word of Jesus Himself. Therefore, when you continue to step out of line relative to His exact words in the name of Satan, I bring forth His words, and at which point, you RUN AWAY just like Tradesecret does!  LOL!

Your embarrassment once again is excused at this time.

NEXT?
You do nothing of the sort. You offer nothing but assertions, slander, ridicule, and innuendo.   
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@PGA2.0

.
PGA2.0,

YOUR LYING QUOTE RELATIVE TO PREACHING JESUS' TRUE WORDS TO YOU AT YOUR EXPENSE: "You do nothing of the sort. You offer nothing but assertions, slander, ridicule, and innuendo."

Prove your points above with examples, instead of hiding like a little boy in the name of Satan, and remember, the membership AND Jesus is watching! 


Have you forgotten these two posts relative to your Bible ignorance and stupidity, where I use Jesus' true words at your expense once again?
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5729-why-don-t-we-see-religious-people-debating-in-the-science-and-nature-forum?page=1&post_number=20
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5729-why-don-t-we-see-religious-people-debating-in-the-science-and-nature-forum?page=1&post_number=21

This link below shows you RUNNING AWAY again from me and the 2 posts above regarding you being the Bible fool!
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5729-why-don-t-we-see-religious-people-debating-in-the-science-and-nature-forum?page=1&post_number=22


PGA2.0, learn to accept your place within this forum as you being another False Prophet, and where I easily own you and your faith, understood?

You are excused in embarrassment once again.

.

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Yes, I am trying to explain from a Christian perspective and opening up to you the consideration that you do not recognize your Messiah, just like 1st century Israel did not (for the most part).
 
And I am trying to explain from a Jewish perspective and opening up to you the consideration that you are completely wrong and should reject Christianity as Jews did (for the most part).
 
There are way too many prophecies that you cannot explain away for them to be fantasies, rather fulfillment.

There are way too many things that you think of as messianic prophecies that are not and too many prophecies that you think of as having been “fulfilled” that are not what you understand.
 
Can you, today, apply the sacrificial system as mandated by the Law of Moses as prescribed in the Torah? If not I have made my point.

 actually, yes. Since there is a lot more to the Law of Moses than you have read, I can apply other elements of it that you are not familiar with.
 
Yes, a replacement that I believe you failed to identify. The NT concerns the replacement and goes into great detail over it.
 
No, a replacement that was textually identified many years before Jesus was around, and was understood already.
 
I think the punishment was fulfilled in AD 70.

That’s nice. You can think all sorts of things if you try hard enough.
 
How are you following the laws as prescribed in the Torah? I do not see animal sacrifices as prescribed for atonement.

So, first, you seem not to understand what the laws in the Torah includes if you ask the first part of your question. And you don’t understand the Mosaic laws of atonement if you ask the second part.

What happened to the Levitical priesthood?

It still exists. Why do you ask?

So what happened to the Old Covenant? You say you are still following it yet I see no indication that you are, as prescribed by the Law.

Then you simply don’t understand what was included in the covenant. It was right there in the Hebrew that you quoted, but since you are relying on a translation, you missed it. Sad.

As a Christian I believe Jesus has met every righteous aspect of the Law, thus fulfilling it. The NT goes into depth regard this point.

As a Jew, I know the rules for “righteous” under Jewish law, and he ain’t it. Also, laws are not fulfilled, they are obeyed. And, of course, if your measuring rod is texts that hold not value or authority for me, then quoting them is worthless.

No name Yeshua?

Nope none. There was a nickname of yay-shu-a with the stress on the first syllable. Is that how you pronounce the nickname of your God? This is really basic Hebrew. There is also a Hebrew word which can be transliterated as “y’shu-a” with the stress on the second syllable, but that isn’t a name. Which one did you mean?

Take one example of what is applied to God in the OT as being applied to Jesus in the NT:

exactly – your “proof” is that the writers of later books took passages from the earlier books and applied them to someone else. By that logic, if I took passages and applied them to Harry Potter, you would say that there is “proof” that Harry Potter is identical with God. Silly, empty, illogical assertions on your part.

Nope. None of those listed are persuasive or conclusive as to the deity of Jesus. Only the OT and NT are because I recognize both as Holy Scripture.

and that’s how I feel about your gospels. Chuck in the same pile as the ones you reject.
 
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@rosends
Yes, I am trying to explain from a Christian perspective and opening up to you the consideration that you do not recognize your Messiah, just like 1st century Israel did not (for the most part).
And I am trying to explain from a Jewish perspective and opening up to you the consideration that you are completely wrong and should reject Christianity as Jews did (for the most part).
Good luck with that, even though I value your incite into Jewish Scripture!
 
There are way too many prophecies that you cannot explain away for them to be fantasies, rather fulfillment.
There are way too many things that you think of as messianic prophecies that are not and too many prophecies that you think of as having been “fulfilled” that are not what you understand.
Great assertions! Like what for instance and I said prophecy, not just Messianic prophecy? I mean also the many covenant prophecies or ones concerning the nation of Israel. Prophecy is a big topic.

Maybe it is you who does not recognize some Messianic prophecy?

But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their hearts;
 
Can you, today, apply the sacrificial system as mandated by the Law of Moses as prescribed in the Torah? If not I have made my point.
 actually, yes. Since there is a lot more to the Law of Moses than you have read, I can apply other elements of it that you are not familiar with.
Other elements, but what about the atonement for sin?
How can you be right with God without following His laws and statutes?
Do you offer burnt offerings in the prescribed manner?
How about meal offerings, sin offerings, trespass offerings, or peace offerings?

Let's test that query I underlines of mine and the claim you made as they relate to Torah. 

First, the offerings, with one exception, require the shedding of blood. How obedient are you to that commandment?
Let's take two of these, the burnt offering and the sin offering.

The Burnt Offering - Leviticus 1:1-17
Do you (through your priest/kohanim) offer a male bull, sheep, goats, or turtledoves, pigeons, and those without blemish, according to your possessions?

The Sin Offering - Leviticus 4:2-35
Does your priests/kohanim bring a bull for their unintentional sins?
Do you, if you are a "person of the people"/commoner and have commit unintentionally sins offer a female goat?
Is the sacrifice made at the entrance of the house of worship?

Now, regarding the six celebratory feast days of the LORD and the solemn Day of Atonement, are they still followed as prescribe. Let's take the Day of Atonement.

Day of Atonement - Leviticus 16:1-32
Is this atonement for sin still performed and in the prescribed manner for the sins of the people of Israel once a year?
Does the Priest/anointed Kohen still offer the sacrifice?
Are two goats used, one for sacrifice, one released into the wilderness?
Is the blood spread over the ark cover/atoning cover?

C.W. Slemming says, God's holiness demands a sacrifice, His majesty requires particular regulations, His honour a code of conduct, His perfection the best in kind, His purity requires no spot or blemish, His sovereignty obedience. Thus Shalt Thou Serve, p.9-10. 

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#26
Tradesecret
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@BrotherDThomas
Please keep to the topic.  I understand with your inability to concentrate how difficult this is for you, but PLEASE keep to the topic or leave the thread.  
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@PGA2.0
Prophecy is a big topic.

yes, and very different from what you understand. The biblical notion of prophecy and prophet is not centered around “predictions”
 
Maybe it is you who does not recognize some Messianic prophecy?

ah, more of the “Jews don’t understand texts aimed at and given to Jews”. Thanks. Do the Russians often tell the Americans “you don’t understand the American constitution”? And quoting from “Corinthians”? Do you think that means anything to me?
 
Other elements, but what about the atonement for sin?

yes, that is covered as well.
 
Do you offer burnt offerings in the prescribed manner?
How about meal offerings, sin offerings, trespass offerings, or peace offerings?

according to the text, I am not supposed to, so I follow the rules that the law lays down. You seem to be familiar with only a small set of rules. You quote all sorts of verses about the sacrificial system, but ignore some others (like rules indicating where and in what condition one is allowed to do those things, and what to do if the criteria cannot be met). You should learn more before you start asking these questions because they are already answered.
 
Here are some random facts:
According to Jewish law, atonement through sacrifice only covers a small section of sin
According to Jewish law, atonement on the day of atonement happens without sacrifice at all
According to Jewish law, sacrifices had to be given in the temple by people ritually pure.
The temple was destroyed and all people are in a state of impurity.
According to Jewish law, there is a verse which says what we can do instead of sacrifices in this situation.
 
Do you know that verse?
#28
BrotherDThomas
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@Tradesecret



YOUR VAIN ATTEMPT TO RUNAWAY AGAIN QUOTE, LOL!!!: "Please keep to the topic.  I understand with your inability to concentrate how difficult this is for you, but PLEASE keep to the topic or leave the thread."

HELLO, I am completely staying on topic, of which you continue to RUN AWAY from because I asked you in the ever so embarrassing link below for you, to simply give us Biblical citations for your OPINIONS that you made in your blithering initial post! WHERE ARE THE CITATIONS BIBLE FOOL?


Now, if you can't STAY ON TOPIC and address my post above, other than to sheepishly RUN AWAY from it, then why do you create threads like this one and not answer a members post relative to the topic at hand?!  If you can't address the link above, then just say so in total embarrassment, understood? The only one that should leave this thread is YOU, for running away again from my post #7!!! LOL!

I have asked you many times, with no answer from you for obviously reasons, WHY do you allow me to easily own you and your faith? Answer this time, if you can for a change, okay dumbfounded of the Bible fool?

BEGIN:


#29
PGA2.0
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@rosends
Yes, a replacement that I believe you failed to identify. The NT concerns the replacement and goes into great detail over it.
No, a replacement that was textually identified many years before Jesus was around, and was understood already.
Are you speaking of the oral law? Please be specific.
 
I think the punishment was fulfilled in AD 70.
That’s nice. You can think all sorts of things if you try hard enough.
And that is what the text of the NT teaches, a text that I would hazard you know very little of and yet speak from a point of authority on.
 
How are you following the laws as prescribed in the Torah? I do not see animal sacrifices as prescribed for atonement.
So, first, you seem not to understand what the laws in the Torah includes if you ask the first part of your question. And you don’t understand the Mosaic laws of atonement if you ask the second part.
I understand that an animal sacrifice was needed for sin, per the Law of Moses, the idea of a substitutionary payment for sin. The animal was acting in place of the sinner and it was a costly sacrifice, even so, yet it preserved the life of the sinner. I understand that from the beginning of Genesis there was a principle of sacrifice, and Abel's sacrifice was considered more noble than Cain's. I understand that animal sacrifice was required under the Law. An animal sacrifice was always only a temporary sacrifice for sin until God could give the sacrifice which would atone for sin forever. Hebrews 9 explains this in great detail for anyone who wants to understand the OT system of sacrifice better. I thought Jews would understand it, that bulls and goats were never a permanent sacrifice for sin, yet they WERE required under that covenant. (see below) Bulls and goats are not the guilty party before God. Human beings are. They act as a substitute until God would make a sufficient sacrifice, a sinless human to restore righteousness. Until that time (when Jesus sacrificed Himself) the message of the OT is a continual annual sacrifice for the people of God on Yom Kippur that ended in AD 70 with the destruction of the Temple and priesthood. After that time, Jews were no longer obedient to the covenant they made with God, nor could they be because God was displeased with that covenant yet used it for a purpose to demonstrate.

Hebrews 10:4-5
New American Standard Bible

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“You have not desired sacrifice and offering,
But You have prepared a body for Me;

Remember:

Each day you shall offer a bull as a sin offering for atonement, and you shall purify the altar when you make atonement for it, and you shall anoint it to consecrate it.

Shemot - Exodus - Chapter 29
36And a bull as a sin offering you shall offer up every day for the atonements, and you shall purify the altar by performing atonement upon it, and you shall anoint it, in order to sanctify it.
 
לווּפַ֨ר חַטָּ֜את תַּֽעֲשֶׂ֤ה לַיּוֹם֙ עַל־הַכִּפֻּרִ֔ים וְחִטֵּאתָ֙ עַל־הַמִּזְבֵּ֔חַ בְּכַפֶּרְךָ֖ עָלָ֑יו וּמָֽשַׁחְתָּ֥ אֹת֖וֹ לְקַדְּשֽׁוֹ:

Where is that practiced in our day by the Jewish people? That was required by God until He established the New Covenant in His Son. 

As for atonement as required under the Law:

And on the next day Moses said to the people, “You yourselves have committed a great sin; and now I am going up to the Lord; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.

And he shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, so that it may be accepted for him to make atonement on his behalf.

He shall also do with the bull just as he did with the bull of the sin offering; he shall do the same with it. So the priest shall make atonement for them, and they will be forgiven.

And he shall offer all its fat up in smoke on the altar as in the case of the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings. So the priest shall make atonement for him regarding his sin, and he will be forgiven.

Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat was removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall offer it up in smoke on the altar as a soothing aroma to the Lord. So the priest shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

Then he shall remove all its fat, just as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of the peace offerings, and the priest shall offer it up in smoke on the altar, on the offerings by fire to the Lord. So the priest shall make atonement for him regarding his sin which he has committed, and he will be forgiven.

He shall also bring his guilt offering to the Lord for his sin which he has committed, a female from the flock, a lamb or a goat as a sin offering. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin.

The second he shall then prepare as a burnt offering according to the ordinance. So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf for his sin which he has committed, and it will be forgiven him.

So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin which he has committed from one of these, and it will be forgiven him; then the rest shall become the priest’s, like the grain offering.’”

And he shall make restitution for that which he has sinned against the holy thing, and shall add to it a fifth part of it and give it to the priest. The priest shall then make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering, and it will be forgiven him.

He is then to bring to the priest a ram without defect from the flock, according to your assessment, as a guilt offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin which he committed unintentionally and did not know it, and it will be forgiven him.

and the priest shall make atonement for him before the Lord, and he will be forgiven for any one of the things which he may have done to incur guilt.”

But no sin offering of which any of the blood is brought into the tent of meeting to make atonement in the Holy Place shall be eaten; it shall be burned with fire.

The guilt offering is like the sin offering: there is one law for them. The priest who makes atonement with it shall have it.

Next Moses slaughtered it and took the blood and with his finger put some of it around on the horns of the altar, and purified the altar. Then he poured out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar and consecrated it, to make atonement for it.

The Lord has commanded us to do as has been done this day, to make atonement on your behalf.

Moses then said to Aaron, “Come near to the altar and offer your sin offering and your burnt offering, so that you may make atonement for yourself and for the people; then make the offering for the people, so that you may make atonement for them, just as the Lord has commanded.”

“Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to take away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord.

Then he shall offer it before the Lord and make atonement for her, and she shall be cleansed from the flow of her blood. This is the law for her who gives birth to a child, whether a male or a female.
And so on it goes. 

And almost all things are cleansed with blood, according to the Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

***

The idea that you have the ability to live without sin before a holy God on your own merit is not what your OT Scriptures teach by its examples. And constantly we see the people of Israel offering animal sacrifices for their sins and the sins of the people. The very fact is the Israel could never live that righteous life required by God. Even David, who God looked upon as the apple of His eye sinned. Sin (or disobedience to God) brought death into the world, and all humans die. You can't deny that. Adam was given the choice to live forever in the Garden (at peace with God) yet the day he ate of the tree of knowledge he was barred from the intimate presence of God, and that very day he died spiritually to God. On that very day he was tossed from the Garden. Adam's sin corrupted humanity. 

16And the Lord God commanded man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat. 
טזוַיְצַו֙ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֔ים עַל־הָֽאָדָ֖ם לֵאמֹ֑ר מִכֹּ֥ל עֵֽץ־הַגָּ֖ן אָכֹ֥ל תֹּאכֵֽל:
17But of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat of it, for on the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die." 
יזוּמֵעֵ֗ץ הַדַּ֨עַת֙ ט֣וֹב וָרָ֔ע לֹ֥א תֹאכַ֖ל מִמֶּ֑נּוּ כִּ֗י בְּי֛וֹם אֲכָלְךָ֥ מִמֶּ֖נּוּ מ֥וֹת תָּמֽוּת:

“But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die.

#30
rosends
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@PGA2.0
Are you speaking of the oral law? Please be specific.
 
Well, that also.
 
And that is what the text of the NT teaches, a text that I would hazard you know very little of and yet speak from a point of authority on.
 
Oh, I don’t speak with any authority on the gospels, even though I have read a bunch of it. I certainly don’t quote it here to make any points. In fact, I have stated that it is useless because it has no authority. If I wanted to, I could certainly post verses that I have studied that would raise serious theological questions for you, but that’s not the goal.
 
I understand that an animal sacrifice was needed for sin, per the Law of Moses,

No, not really, but keep going. This is fun.
 
the idea of a substitutionary payment for sin. The animal was acting in place of the sinner and it was a costly sacrifice, even so, yet it preserved the life of the sinner.

No, not at all. By that logic, there should be no capital punishment, just animal sacrifice replacing the human life. Or the sacrifice should be for sins that would otherwise require human death. But that’s not the case. Keep going…
 
 I understand that from the beginning of Genesis there was a principle of sacrifice, and Abel's sacrifice was considered more noble than Cain's.

There was no “principle”. There was an idea of ceding to God something of value.
 
An animal sacrifice was always only a temporary sacrifice for sin until God could give the sacrifice which would atone for sin forever.

then you only understand Christianity and not Judaism because that idea has nothing to do with Judaism or the Jewish bible.
 
 Hebrews 9 explains this in great detail for anyone who wants to understand the OT system of sacrifice better.

See how to prove your point you have to quote form a non-Jewish text? QED.
 
They act as a substitute until God would make a sufficient sacrifice, a sinless human to restore righteousness.

Yeah, um…yuck. Humans aren’t fit for sacrifice under biblical law. In fact, human sacrifice is frowned upon. Also, humans are not sinless with rare exceptions and Jesus wasn’t one of those exceptions. And sins don’t “restore righteousness.”
 
After that time, Jews were no longer obedient to the covenant they made with God, nor could they be because God was displeased with that covenant yet used it for a purpose to demonstrate.

That is your assertion. It is meaningless, but there you go.
 
Where is that practiced in our day by the Jewish people? That was required by God until He established the New Covenant in His Son.
 
A wrong assertion, full of problems. It reflects a lack of understanding of the bible, of Jewish law and of logic.
 
The idea that you have the ability to live without sin before a holy God on your own merit is not what your OT Scriptures teach by its examples.

nor is it what anyone claims. That makes this a strawman.
 
yet the day he ate of the tree of knowledge he was barred from the intimate presence of God, and that very day he died spiritually to God.

if you knew Hebrew you would see why this is a mistake. But you don’t. So you don’t.