Free Will

Author: Dr.Franklin

Posts

Total: 100
Topic's author
#31
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Sum1hugme
I'm not sure where I lost you. 

Either we are choosing freely, or our choices are determined by an unbroken chain of events going back to the beginning of time. Either our actions are the product of some function that is making decisions, the will, or our actions are the inevitable product of cause and effect.

So how do you know that you're choosing freely, and not determined by cause and effect?

we can still make our own decisions despite a chain of events from the beginning of time 
#32
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@Dr.Franklin
But how do you know that that decision isn't determined by physical cause and effect? How do you know that your decisions aren't merely the illusion of choice?
Topic's author
#33
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@zedvictor4
Consider the process Doc.

How random can random  be?

Ultimately a random choice is an internal choice, subject to internal data analysis.

More like a snap decision perhaps?
nothing is truly random zed

Topic's author
#34
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Bones
But you still went anyways because you wanted to. 

nope.

This isn't about becoming a female, this is about loving a male. If you are a heterosexual male, and lust for male is simply a mind thing which requires no physical change, surely you can change your mind about your sexuality? 
if it isnt a choice to begin with then it doesnt fit free will definition

Don't you see that this leads to an infinite regress? You say you want to do something, but free will requires you to be able to justify why you did what you did. And then you give a reason for why you did what you did, but then why did you do the thing which you did? 

For example, consider the following thought experiment. 

Pick a random country. Any country. Notice this processes which you are going through. Notice the selecting and the choosing, and the "freeness "which you are going through. What if I were to say that this very processes proves that free will does not exist? 
 
In order to unpack this, we must first establish the options that one has to pick. 
 
1)A person is not free to choose a country which they do not know exists. 
2)A person cannot choose a country which didn't occur to them
3)You can only choose what occurs to you
 
The first option is obvious. If you don't know it, then you cannot choose it. You are not free to choose it, so to speak. 
 
The second option however, is a little more confronting. Perhaps all readers know about Argentina but for some reason, your Argentina neurons were not functioning and you did you think it it. This then begs the question, what canyon think about?
 
The third option is to unpack what you can choose. Say you chose America. The first thing to note is that you only "chose" it because it occurred to you. But how do you choose what occurs to you? The process of something occurring toyon is unsolicited, it is impossible to choose what occurs to you. 
 
Secondly, say the countries America and China occurred to you (you did not choose for these two countries to occur to you, they simply did). Ask yourself, why did you choose America? When subjects in a lab are asked to justify their actions(whilst under the influence of some independent variable) the test subject usually does not know the real reason why their actions occurred the way that they did (assuming an experienced experimenter was involved). However, this isn't to say they don't have a tale to tell. If you asked a person who has been hypnotised why they did certain things, they usually have bizarre reasons forwhy the did what they did (though unconvincing to us, the subject remains convinced of their tale). Returning to the case of free will, why does one choose Americas opposed to China. Well, one may say that "they just had an American hotdog last night and so America appealed to them". However, this is no justification, it is merely stating a fact. It's like if you asked a murderer why they murdered and they said "I killed him". So why choose America instead of China because you ate a hotdog? Why couldn't you think "well I've just had a hotdog, let's switch things up, I'll choose China". This process of "choosing" because of your apparent "justification" is no more than your neurons making a decision for you and you being aware of this decision. 
 
You cannot know how things occur to you and neither can you know why you "chose" the option of which you did. 

free will does not require a justification for your action to be done. therefore your entire stupid thought experiment is wrong

and you can not which things occured to you, you can know what country your born it and etc
#35
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@zedvictor4
Freedom to make informed choices is probably as good as it gets.
That's saying the same as free will is as good as it gets. Of course, we should make informed choices. Adam and Eve were not thrown into Eden without advice.
#36
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@Wylted
@zedvictor4
@Dr.Franklin
@Sum1hugme
@Bones
The term free will is a philosophical concept used in opposition against the assumption that all our choices our predetermined because of the assumption of God's omniscience. We're not arguing against the idea that the choices we make have preceding factors. The point here, is that we are "free" to decide what we want to do regardless if there was a reason we chose it, not that there is some mechanical influence somewhere that predestinated it.

Even in the line of reasoning that says there are causes for our decisions it's not 100% certain what we will do. For example, there might be reasons that made me do something as a reaction to an event however the options of how I choose to react are endless. In this sense, we are "free" to decide how to react and in what way. This doesn't negate the reality there was a cause for my reaction.

#37
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@Dr.Franklin
But you still went anyways because you wanted to. 

nope.
Name me an instance in which you did something which you both didn't want to and weren't forced to. 

This isn't about becoming a female, this is about loving a male. If you are a heterosexual male, and lust for male is simply a mind thing which requires no physical change, surely you can change your mind about your sexuality? 
if it isnt a choice to begin with then it doesnt fit free will definition

But surely you can use your "free will" to want to be gay? Perhaps this isn't the best example, but consider belief. I challenge you, as a Catholic to use your free will and believe Islam.This is a choice that you can make. 

free will does not require a justification for your action to be done. therefore your entire stupid thought experiment is wrong
So you're saying that you'e free, yet you can't even tell me why you're doing what you'e doing. Surely if you "chose" to do something, you can tell me why you chose to do it. Otherwise, it would just be random. 


#38
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@Bones
Name me an instance in which you did something which you both didn't want to and weren't forced to. 
  Every day at 4:30 am
#39
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@Sum1hugme
What exactly do you do?
#40
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,078
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@fauxlaw
In my opinion Adam and Eve were just an analogy, in an ancient and naive text.

We will have to disagree on this one.
#41
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 12,078
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@EtrnlVw
Concepts are philosophical.

And a god's omniscience is an assumption.

One can also refer to freewill philosophically, in contexts other than established religions.

A reasonably liberal society allows us more freedom to choose, but social programming is inevitably the basis of our choices.

Religion is just a greater or lesser part of social programming.
#42
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@Bones
I get up early every day for the discipline. 
#43
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@Sum1hugme
I get up early every day for the discipline. 
So you get up everyday because you want to be discipled. Even though you do not directly enjoy getting up early, you still want to because your desire to be disciplined overrides the discomfort of waking up early. 
#44
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@Bones
The desire to be disciplined motivates me to will over my loathing of getting up early. I'm still doing something I don't want to do and not forced to do.
#45
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@Bones
I would also say that moral actions or do not qualify under your humean assertion of desire and force being the only things that motivate one to act. One can both not want to do the moral thing and not be forced to do the moral thing and still be intrinsically motivated to by x action being the right thing to do.
#46
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@Sum1hugme
The desire to be disciplined motivates me to will over my loathing of getting up early.
Exactly. Even though you do not like the feeling of getting up, you still want to as your desire to stick to your resolution. You still want to get up, because your want to stay disciplined is more rewarding than sleeping in.  


#47
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@Bones
I'm motivated to do something I hate by my desire for something greater. That's neither desire to do the thing I hate, or force. 

I don't desire the thing I hate, I desire something else.
#48
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@Sum1hugme
I don't desire the thing I hate, I desire something else.
But as an overall package, you want to wake up early because you weigh the cost and benefit of doing so and find that sticking to your resolution is something you want to do. 
#49
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@Bones
You're conflating my desire for the ends with my non-desire for the means.
#50
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@Sum1hugme
I'm not denying the fact that there are things that you don't like. However, getting up early as a package, is something which you believe the goods outweigh the bad, hence something you want to do. 
#51
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@Bones
But I don't desire the "bad." So you shouldn't say I desire the end, therefore I desire the means of attaining that end. My desire rests in the attainment of the goal, not necessarily the means of attaining it.
#52
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@Sum1hugme
But I don't desire the "bad." So you shouldn't say I desire the end, therefore I desire the means of attaining that end. My desire rests in the attainment of the goal, not necessarily the means of attaining it.
But we are discussing a single act, that is, getting up at 4. Overall, you do want to do it. At an individual level, you do not want to get up but when judging the action in perspective to your life, you do want to get up at 4 for the sake of discipline. 


#53
Sum1hugme
Sum1hugme's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 1,014
4
4
9
Sum1hugme's avatar
Sum1hugme
4
4
9
-->
@Bones
You're not addressing the fact that desiring the ends does not necessarily entail desiring the means. So the act, the means, is not desirable. Only the result
Topic's author
#54
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Bones
your getting free will wrong. It doesnt give you the choice to do impossible things. Free will doesnt magically let you become a fucking traingle
#55
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@zedvictor4
Most analogies have their root in fact. If not Adam and Eve, someone else. Determinism is not the alternate reality

#56
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@Dr.Franklin
You can't just say that, when I find something your free will can't do, it's not free will. Free will is the ability to make your own choices with regards to, well, choices. It is a choice to be Catholic just like how its a choice to be Islam.
#57
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,260
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
I find the free will debate to be ultimately pointless. If we don't have free will, then whatever it is, is something no one has ever experienced before. Therefore not only do we lose nothing, but we don't even know what it is we are supposed to have lost.

#58
Bones
Bones's avatar
Debates: 31
Posts: 968
3
7
9
Bones's avatar
Bones
3
7
9
-->
@Sum1hugme
You're not addressing the fact that desiring the ends does not necessarily entail desiring the means. So the act, the means, is not desirable. Only the result
But the fact of the matter is that you value the result so much you are willing to override the discomfort of waking up early with the results. 

Consider the following example. Not a lot of people like working out (the act of lifting weights), but almost everyone loves the result, that is, health and looks. However, as human beings, we are able to weigh and judge and action in it's entirety. This is further proven through the fact that people often take vaccinations despite the physical discomfort of doing so. The reason people get their jabs is because despite them not "wanting" the pain of the shot, they weigh the goods and find that doing so is a larger benefit, i.e something they want. 
Topic's author
#59
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,673
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Bones
it isnt free will because it doesnt allow to do impossible things
#60
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 14,582
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Intelligence_06
P2. Being forced to do something is not illustrative of free will.
When you are forced to do something, you are free to not trust the person to force you but you chose to trust them and do what they say. 
The "force" is not necessarily the will of another human.

Try not eating or drinking or breathing.

Try not evacuating the products of your metabolic systems.

Try not sleeping.