Jesus Is Not God

#91

Tradesecret

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,437

3

2

6

Tradesecret

08.21.2022 11:16PM

3

2

6

08.21.2022 11:16PM

-->

@Harikrish

@Shila

It seems you must have reincarnated. Is this the 5th. 6th. or 7th time.

In any event, your arguments have not evolved any.

The Christian view is Jesus is not God the Father. They are separate persons. Hence most of your arguments are actually "arguments of straw".

The Christian understanding of God is that God is ONE. He is Trinity. ONE God, yet THREE persons. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, I have explained to you before that Jesus NEVER blamed God for his crucifixion. In fact the Crucifixion was planned before the beginning of the world and the THREE persons of the TRINITY were in agreement with it.

Psalm 22 is a reasonably long Psalm and has several sections within it - that must be understood together, not isolated out as one verse by itself. If you read the Psalm, which previously you have indicated that you have - then you would see the parallel in that Psalm with much of Jesus' life, his humiliation and his exaltation.

It is conceded that many Christians within mainstream Christianity - at least in the Protestant arm and moreso within the dissenter and Charismatic movements understand that the Father turned his face away from Jesus on the cross. Their basis for this view is God cannot look on sin - and therefore when Jesus himself became sin for the world, God turned his eye away from God. At this point Christ cries out - why did you forsake me? And the answer although silent in the story itself - is justification that Christ's death did in fact achieve what he was sent to earth to accomplish.

Reformed Folk tend to hold a different understanding. We say God could never be divided. That means that we hold the view that God was in agreement. Even in the garden of Gethsemane where Jesus sweats tears of blood - asking the Father - if it were possible to remove this cup. "nevertheless, Jesus says not my will but yours be done." Two things here - firstly was Jesus asking God the Father as the Son of Man or as the Son of God? Secondly, was Jesus speaking from the human perspective not a divine one? Very similar questions - but also substantially different.

Nowhere does the story show that God turned away from his son. Jesus expresses his thoughts on the cross. But is he speaking words of prophecy in accord with Psalm 22 - demonstrating he is the Lamb of God, or is he expressing sentiments that he is blaming God? Given his history of speaking words of prophecy it is more plausible that it is the former rather than the latter. Also we know that Jesus knows the Scriptures. Hence, he knows God will never leave nor forsake him. God doesn't break his promises. Jesus knows this. He is too much a creature of the Scriptures to think otherwise. And the fact that Jesus quotes Psalm 22 - clearly - at least in my view - illustrates he knows he is an instrument of prophecy - and is expressly declaring that even as he died on the cross.

For me - it points to his validity. It points to his divinity and to his humanity. It reveals he is a student not only of the Scriptures - but knows them intimately.

Hence - your words - much repeated words are simply more of the historical nonsense of another forum long ago which has died.

#92

Shila

Debates: 0

Posts: 3,006

3

5

Shila

08.22.2022 03:01PM

3

5

08.22.2022 03:01PM

-->

@Tradesecret

The Christian understanding of God is that God is ONE. He is Trinity. ONE God, yet THREE persons. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The Christian view is Jesus is not God the Father. They are separate persons. Hence most of your arguments are actually "arguments of straw".

Jesus said he too had a father and a God.

John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Furthermore, I have explained to you before that Jesus NEVER blamed God for his crucifixion. In fact the Crucifixion was planned before the beginning of the world and the THREE persons of the TRINITY were in agreement with it.

Jesus lamented on the cross God had betrayed and forsaken him just as he had done to David.

Matthew 37:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Also we know that Jesus knows the Scriptures.

Jesus was mostly clueless. When asked when he would return what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” He could not answer.

Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Only God knew and Jesus admitted he was not God.

clearly - at least in my view - illustrates he knows he is an instrument of prophecy - and is expressly declaring that even as he died on the cross.

Matthew 37:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Jesus was not an instrument of prophecy. Jesus was expressly declaring God had betrayed and forsaken him on the cross

jesus even denied he was heir to the Davidic kingdom.

John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

Jesus never claimed he was God. He said he was sent by God to save the Jews. But we know that failed. Jesus said he would return 2000 years ago. But that never happened.

During his life on earth Jesus was called a liar and a lunatic.

1. Liar.

John 10:33 "We are not stoning You for any good work," said the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because You, who are a man, declare Yourself to be God."

2. Lunatic.0

Mark 3:21 When His family heard about this, they went out to take custody of Him, saying, "He is out of His mind."

John 10:20 Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him?"

3. They demanded Jesus be crucified.

Luke 23:21 but they kept shouting, "Crucify Him! Crucify Him!"

4. The Romans crucified Jesus.

John 19:23 When they crucified him, the Roman soldiers took his clothes and divided them up four ways, to each soldier a fourth. But his robe was seamless, a single piece of weaving ...

5. Even Jesus blamed God for forsaking him on the cross.

Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

6. Jesus's call to his disciples failed too. No one followed Jesus or joined him in his crucifixion. Therefore no one was saved or worthy of Jesus.

Matthew 10:38 and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me.

7. His discipiles all tried to save their own lives and did not want to lose it for Jesus.

Luke 17:33 Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it.

8. The one time offer for salvation ended with Jesus. Jesus has not returned to make a similar offer to future generations. But God has sent another prophet Mohammad in his place.

9. Jesus spoke to his generation. Repeating his words does not carry the same promise. His promise ended on the cross.

Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

10. Even the Pope declared the cross was a failure of God.

Pope Francis said during his whirlwind U.S. tour. "And if at times OUR EFFORTS AND WORKS SEEM TO FAIL AND PRODUCE NO FRUIT, we need to REMEMBER that WE ARE FOLLOWERS OF JESUS ... and His LIFE! humanly speaking, ENDED IN FAILURE, THE FAILURE OF THE CROSS"

When you don"t understand something, when desperation hits you then look at the CROSS. THAT IS THE GREAT FAILURE OF GOD, THAT IS THE DESTRUCTION OF GOD, AND IT'S A CHALLENGE TO OUR FAITH

#93

Polytheist-Witch

Debates: 1

Posts: 4,188

3

6

Polytheist-Witch

08.22.2022 04:53PM

3

6

08.22.2022 04:53PM

-->

@Tradesecret

The mods know it too and they simply allow him to keep spewing his hatred because you know it's directed at us.

#94

Shila

Debates: 0

Posts: 3,006

3

5

Shila

08.22.2022 05:10PM

3

5

08.22.2022 05:10PM

Polytheist-Witch: The mods know it too and they simply allow him to keep spewing his hatred because you know it's directed at us.

How am I spewing hatred by quoting scriptures? Tradesecret as a preached does it all the time even though he knows Jesus was crucified for what he claimed and preached.

John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

#95

Tradesecret

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,437

3

2

6

Tradesecret

08.23.2022 11:28PM

3

2

6

08.23.2022 11:28PM

-->

@Polytheist-Witch

you are correct.

#96

Tradesecret

Debates: 2

Posts: 3,437

3

2

6

Tradesecret

08.23.2022 11:30PM

3

2

6

08.23.2022 11:30PM

-->

@Shila

Polytheist-Witch: The mods know it too and they simply allow him to keep spewing his hatred because you know it's directed at us.
How am I spewing hatred by quoting scriptures? Tradesecret as a preached does it all the time even though he knows Jesus was crucified for what he claimed and preached.

John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Poly never said you spewed hatred by quoting the scriptures. It is your commentary and interpretation that permeates hatred.

Jesus was crucified but thankfully, and praise God, he rose from the dead. He is alive.

#97

Shila

Debates: 0

Posts: 3,006

3

5

Shila

08.24.2022 01:02AM

3

5

08.24.2022 01:02AM

-->

@Tradesecret

Polytheist-Witch: The mods know it too and they simply allow him to keep spewing his hatred because you know it's directed at us.
How am I spewing hatred by quoting scriptures? Tradesecret as a preacher does it all the time even though he knows Jesus was crucified for what he claimed and preached.

John 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

Tradesecret : Poly never said you spewed hatred by quoting the scriptures. It is your commentary and interpretation that permeates hatred.

Jesus was crucified but thankfully, and praise God, he rose from the dead. He is alive.

Jesus lost the Jews the very people he was sent to save.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

The Romans even crucified their messiah, destroyed the temple, Jerusalem and replaced Judaism with the Roman Catholic Church turning it is a universal religion.

Jesus who claimed in Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Jesus is now a housekeeper in heaven preparing rooms for guests.

John 14:2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Stood idly by.

Even the Pope declared the cross was a failure of God.

Pope Francis said during his whirlwind U. S. Tour. "And if at times OUR EFFORTS AND WORKS SEEM TO FAIL AND PRODUCE NO FRUIT, We need to REMEMBER that WE ARE FOLLOWERS OF JESUS. . . And His LIFE, Humanly speaking, ENDED IN FAILURE, THE FAILURE OF THE CROSS?"

When you don"t understand something, When desperation hits you then look at the CROSS. THAT IS THE GREAT FAILURE OF GOD, THAT IS THE DESTRUCTION OF GOD, AND IT'S A CHALLENGE TO OUR FAITH?