Who's in for some fun challenges?

Author: Yassine
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#1
Yassine
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- First of all, anybody I used to know still lurking around here?

- It seems nobody wants to debate me despite my soliciting efforts... I've been away a couple of years, & I've already noticed a huge change of attitudes. Regardless, this is a debate website, so let's get debating. I am Muslim, cultivated in an Islamic Tradition, my primary interest for debate. I realize most here have an aversion towards debating Islam related topics, maybe this post will make it a little bit more compelling. Although I'm interested in debating any Islam related topics (religion, theology, history, law, philosophy...etc), this is an initial list of ideas:

General:
God Is (God, as defined in the Islamic tradition of course)
Islam is true / Muhammed (pbuh) is a true prophet
The Quran is faithfully preserved
The Quran is a true revelation
Islam is a religion of peace
The Hadith tradition is genuine

Christianity vs. Islam:
Tawhid vs. Trinity
Quran vs. Bible preservation
Quran vs. NT preservation
Truth of Quran vs. Bible
Quranic stories vs. Biblical stories
Quranic prophets vs. Biblical prophets
Free Will in Islam vs. Christianity
Salvation in Islam vs. Christianity
Worldview in Islam vs. Christianity
Women's rights in Islam vs. Christianity
Human rights in Islam vs. Christianity
History of Muslims vs. Christians
Science in relation to Islam vs. Christianity
Islamic conquests vs. Christian conquests

Secularism vs. Islam:
Islamic state vs. Secular state
Freedom of religion in Islam vs. Secularism
Islamic education vs. Secular education
Islamic ethics vs. Secular ethics
Islamic history vs. Secular history
Human rights in Islam vs. Secularism
Women's rights in Islam vs. Secularism
Islamic conquests vs. Secular conquests

Hard challenges (for me):
The Quran is better preserved than any other book in history
Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is the best attested to person in history
Islamic penal law is superior to Secular penal law
History in Islamic tradition is superior to History in the Western tradition
The origin of Common Law is primarily Islamic Law
Eastern Christianity is superior to Western Christianity
The Hijab is a religious duty in all abrahamic religions
The zionist cause of Israel is culpable
Atheism is unattainable 
Darwinian Evolution is more literature than science
Subsaharan Africa adopted civilization before White Europe (non-Mediterranean)
Nicholas Copernicus is a plagerist
Classical Physics is primarily an Islamic invention
The Arab race is the most influential race in history
Democracy is a terrible government system
Erdogan vs. any current European leader
The Islamic world will surpass the Western world by 2050
The Belt & Road project is good
China will surpass the Western world by 2040
The world order will go back to its pre-Western dominion by 2070
China has already surpassed the US
The Chinese communist state is superior to the Western democratic state

- I might think of more to add later... Lemme know if you'd like to chip in, I am open to new topics as well. 
#2
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@Yassine
May I ask a question?

One of the items you list is "The Hijab is a religious duty in all abrahamic religions" and I'm not sure on what basis you can even make that claim. How would you define "religious duty" and "abrahamic religions" and on the basis of what would you make that claim?
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#3
Yassine
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@rosends
One of the items you list is "The Hijab is a religious duty in all abrahamic religions" and I'm not sure on what basis you can even make that claim. How would you define "religious duty" and "abrahamic religions" and on the basis of what would you make that claim?
- The 'Hijab' is modest covering, which includes head covering. A religious duty is an act sanctioned by scripture &/or religious authority. The Abrahamic religions are of course, Judaism, Christianity & Islam. 

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#4
Yassine
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@rosends
- You interested in debating the topic? Or any of the other topics?
#5
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@Yassine
I'm still trying to understand. One cannot debate if one is speaking at cross purposes because grounds are not common.  You wrote, " A religious duty is an act sanctioned by scripture &/or religious authority" but who decides what religious authority is binding? And you also wrote that " The 'Hijab' is modest covering, which includes head covering" - are you saying that there is an obligation for any form of "modest covering" in any Abrahamic religion (who defines what is modest?) or that there is an obligation of a specific type/piece? Is everyone required to include head covering?

I could present the argument that everyone is required to X because the law of ?????? says so, and the law of ?????? is binding on everyone because that law says so. But that isn't really a persuasive argument because someone outside of ?????? would deny a basic premise -- the authority of that system and its laws.
#6
Intelligence_06
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Are these topics even “fun” at all? Many of them are overused in DDO and here.


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Stephen
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@Yassine
Why cannot Islam reform?
#8
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@Intelligence_06
Are these topics even “fun” at all? 

 Maybe because religion is such a serious subject.  As someone here once said to me;
" Do you have any conception of how dangerous religion is and in particular Christianity"? History shows otherwise. History shows how dangerous it is".    #153


There is nothing "fun" about ideologies that promote indoctrination and or oppression.

This would have made for a decent discussion on its own thread Intelligence_06.
#9
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@Yassine

Islam is a religion of peace.
Try telling that to all Muslims.


In all fairness, all the Muslim labelled humans that I know are peaceable, and in predominately Muslim countries, I have always been treated well.


Nonetheless, ideologies foster nutcases, and nutcases can incite the gullible....Look at the climax of the recent U.S. Presidential election for example.


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#10
Yassine
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@Stephen

Why cannot Islam reform?
- Is this the resolution you're proposing? We can debate: "Islam needs a reformation" or something similar. I'll take Con.

Maybe because religion is such a serious subject.  As someone here once said to me;
" Do you have any conception of how dangerous religion is and in particular Christianity"? History shows otherwise. History shows how dangerous it is".    #153
There is nothing "fun" about ideologies that promote indoctrination and or oppression.
This would have made for a decent discussion on its own thread Intelligence_06.
- How about the resolution: "Islam is a dangerous religion"? Of course I'll take Con.

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#11
Yassine
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@rosends
I'm still trying to understand. One cannot debate if one is speaking at cross purposes because grounds are not common. 
- You are free to propose your own phrasing of the resolution, or your own topic.

You wrote, " A religious duty is an act sanctioned by scripture &/or religious authority" but who decides what religious authority is binding?
- I'm guessing the commonly accepted religious authority within the faith. For instance, the Halakha or rabbinic authority, for Judaism. Or the Church's fathers & the patriarchs for Christianity. The Mathhabs (legal schools) & the ulama in Islam.

And you also wrote that " The 'Hijab' is modest covering, which includes head covering" - are you saying that there is an obligation for any form of "modest covering" in any Abrahamic religion (who defines what is modest?) or that there is an obligation of a specific type/piece? Is everyone required to include head covering?
- I'm a little confused as to what exactly you're inquiring about, but I'll try. Modest covering is indeed prescribed in all Abrahamic faiths. Modest = chaste & decent clothing, to avoid attracting sexual attention. Not necessarily a specific type, rather it's about not exposing most of the body, including the hair. 

I could present the argument that everyone is required to X because the law of ?????? says so, and the law of ?????? is binding on everyone because that law says so. But that isn't really a persuasive argument because someone outside of ?????? would deny a basic premise -- the authority of that system and its laws.
- Evidently, religious prescriptions are relevant to religious adherents. When I say "prescribed in Islam" it obviously does not entail for Christians or non-Muslims, but it is for Muslims. We would have to agree of course on religious authority prior to debating, to avoid any debate of "feelings".   

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#12
Yassine
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@Intelligence_06
Are these topics even “fun” at all?
- What's your idea of "fun" topic to you? You're free to propose your own topic. As long as there is Islam somewhere there, I'll be happy to debate it.

Many of them are overused in DDO and here.
- Besides the "God" one, which else are overused? I've never seen any such debates here, otherwise I would've jumped on them.

- Are you actually Chinese? From China? There are a few 'China' related topics on my list, but I doubt you would take Con in any of them.

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#13
Yassine
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@zedvictor4
Try telling that to all Muslims.
- You seem to be eager to talk the talk, can you walk the walk? Let's debate the resolution.

In all fairness, all the Muslim labelled humans that I know are peaceable, and in predominately Muslim countries, I have always been treated well.
- & yet, you hold such bigotries. That's cool.

Nonetheless, ideologies foster nutcases, and nutcases can incite the gullible....Look at the climax of the recent U.S. Presidential election for example.
- Why don't you save your arguments for the actual debate. We don't wanna expose too much. Are you up for it?
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Stephen
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@zedvictor4
Nonetheless, ideologies foster nutcases, and nutcases can incite the gullible.

 Who can ever forget the incitement over a novel in countries where the majority of the  population doesn't even speak English never mind read in their own  languages?
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@Yassine

Why cannot Islam reform?
- Is this the resolution you're proposing?

 Can you not see the question mark, Yassine? It looks just like  one of these >>   ?

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#16
Yassine
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@Stephen
 Can you not see the question mark, Yassine? It looks just like  one of these >>   ?
- Can you not read the OP? It says: "debating topics"... Are you here for debate? 

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#17
Yassine
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@Stephen
 Who can ever forget the incitement over a novel in countries where the majority of the  population doesn't even speak English never mind read in their own  languages?
- That could be one of your arguments in the debate... 

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@Yassine
 Can you not see the question mark, Yassine? It looks just like  one of these >>   ?
- Can you not read the OP? It says: "debating topics"...

Yep.   Your own title reads :  "Who's in for some fun challenges?"  .

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@Yassine
I'll debate you about the existence of god anytime man. I just move slowly so give me a week for arguments and we can make it happen.
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#20
Yassine
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@Sum1hugme
I'll debate you about the existence of god anytime man.
- Damn! I was hoping it would be something else. Anything else on the list you may be interested in? Or something new?

I just move slowly so give me a week for arguments and we can make it happen.
- Sure. Me too, I don't like deadlines. If this happens, it should be my first debate here, so I'd need to familiarize myself with the platform. Anything I should know in terms of formatting & voting?

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#21
Yassine
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@Stephen
Yep.   Your own title reads :  "Who's in for some fun challenges?"  .
- Since you have an opinion on the inability of Islam to reform, & since you're here to have some fun challenges, it naturally follows that you're probably here to debate the reformation of Islam, are you not?

#22
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@Yassine
Thanks for the clarification. In your post, you wrote,

Modest covering is indeed prescribed in all Abrahamic faiths. Modest = chaste & decent clothing, to avoid attracting sexual attention. Not necessarily a specific type, rather it's about not exposing most of the body, including the hair. 

I can't speak about all Abrahamic faiths, but I can say that in Judaism, some Jews understand that there are rules governing dress including, for some people, some of the time, an obligation to cover the hair. All those "some" statements undermine any more general claim. If that's the case across other religions, then the claim is working backwards -- finding a common rule and then asserting the common thread as a function of membership in the Abrahamic group. That's a safe claim because it is self evident. So it would seem that your topic is more precisely

"In all Abrahamic faiths, there are certain denominations which understand religious authority to have devised rules regarding covering the body and in certain cases, this includes covering hair, for a variety of reasons."

This ends up being a report (substantiated by the various codes of law, easily quotable), not a topic for debate (at least as it relates to Judaism) so I'm still not sure what the topic of the debate would be.
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#23
Yassine
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@rosends
Thanks for the clarification. In your post, you wrote,
- What kind of Jew are you? What do you subscribe to?

I can't speak about all Abrahamic faiths, but I can say that in Judaism, some Jews understand that there are rules governing dress including, for some people, some of the time, an obligation to cover the hair. All those "some" statements undermine any more general claim. If that's the case across other religions, then the claim is working backwards --
- "Some Jews"...? You are already on your way to your first round of debate. My claim, as stated, regards the prescription of Hijab, the modest & head covering for ritual & decency purposes, in all three of the Abrahamic faiths. That entails scriptural or authoritative foundation for said prescription. My opponent, henceforth, would argue for the opposite. That is, lack of scriptural & authoritative foundation for Hijab in any of the abrahamic faiths. 

finding a common rule and then asserting the common thread as a function of membership in the Abrahamic group. That's a safe claim because it is self evident.
- I have the sneaking feelings that this topic will turn into an argument about authority, & not an argument about Hijab. Since I'm trying to avoid this, we would have to agree on 'authority' first. The Torah, the Talmud & the various commentaries. We can't have "feelings". 

So it would seem that your topic is more precisely
"In all Abrahamic faiths, there are certain denominations which understand religious authority to have devised rules regarding covering the body and in certain cases, this includes covering hair, for a variety of reasons."
- The topic is more about the scriptural & authoritative religious foundations, not the practices of various adherents. Otherwise, all religious prescriptions become empty, for we live in a time where feelings became faith itself, & submission to the whim became submission to God. Yeah, I don't want none of that.

This ends up being a report (substantiated by the various codes of law, easily quotable), not a topic for debate (at least as it relates to Judaism) so I'm still not sure what the topic of the debate would be.
- I'm taking the Pro position that indeed it is the case that modest & head covering is prescribed. If you agree with this, then we have nothing to debate. I'm seeking someone who would take the Con position, to refute the claim.
#24
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@Yassine
you wrote, "What kind of Jew are you? What do you subscribe to?"
 
I am an orthodox Jew
 
you wrote, ""Some Jews"...? You are already on your way to your first round of debate."
 
But that isn’t debatable. It is a fact that not all Jews feel bound by what others claim is religious Jewish law.
 
you wrote, "That is, lack of scriptural & authoritative foundation for Hijab in any of the abrahamic faiths. "
 
But since not all Jews agree that the “authority” is the authority, some Jews would say that the rule isn’t in the religion.
 
you wrote, "I have the sneaking feelings that this topic will turn into an argument about authority, & not an argument about Hijab. Since I'm trying to avoid this, we would have to agree on 'authority' first. The Torah, the Talmud & the various commentaries. We can't have "feelings". "
 
Some Jews see none of these as an authority in the creation of the religion – some see the religion as a human construct inspired by the Torah text but codified by men, and most of those people would say that modest clothing and/or hair covering are not found in the religion. This isn’t about feelings, but about understanding of how religion exists and develops. A reform Jew, who claims that his understanding of Judaism is valid as a religion, would say that there is no mention in his code of any laws or texts of clothing, and any innovation by some other person whom he does not see as an authority is useless.
 



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Stephen
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@Yassine
 Since you have an opinion on the inability of Islam to reform

  I have asked you why it cannot reform?  Are you suggesting  that it can?
#26
Sum1hugme
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@Yassine
Well to be honest, I don't know much about the specifics of Islam since I was raised as a christian. So, I just threw out there what I'm confident at. But I can go back through your list and see if there's something else there I'd be interested in
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#27
Yassine
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@rosends
I am an orthodox Jew
- What do you adhere to in terms of modest dressing in Judaism?
 
But that isn’t debatable. It is a fact that not all Jews feel bound by what others claim is religious Jewish law.
- Yeah, no "feelings" allowed. We don't see any of them 'feel' not bound by American law, no do we? 
  
But since not all Jews agree that the “authority” is the authority, some Jews would say that the rule isn’t in the religion.
- Without authority, there is no meaning to any law. I believe it's called Judaism not WhateverIwantism. This also applies for Muslims & Christians. Regardless, the topic is about the religious foundation for the practice, not about the feelings adherents hold about the practice.
  
Some Jews see none of these as an authority in the creation of the religion – some see the religion as a human construct inspired by the Torah text but codified by men, and most of those people would say that modest clothing and/or hair covering are not found in the religion.
- We are not talking about religion anymore here. 

This isn’t about feelings, but about understanding of how religion exists and develops.
- Indeed it is about feelings. When the personal whims & feelings become the criterion for religious morality, instead of the divine commandment. If the Enlightenment aimed to put human Reason as the ultimate authority, Post-Modernism denies it & instead put personal feelings as the new criterion. Why is it that for thousands of years Jews have behaved a certain way, & now under secular states they suddenly feel otherwise? The power of the materialist world order today is virtually total, & has succeeded in making religious law virtually cede its authority to secular law.

A reform Jew, who claims that his understanding of Judaism is valid as a religion, would say that there is no mention in his code of any laws or texts of clothing, and any innovation by some other person whom he does not see as an authority is useless.
 - Exactly, self-claims = feelings. Indeed, the modernist Muslim or Christian or Jew does have a authority, except it isn't the religious authority, rather it is the secular one. Without a sense of religious authority any argument about religious law becomes meaningless. Yeah, this is already turning into an argument about authority.





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#28
Yassine
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@Sum1hugme
Well to be honest, I don't know much about the specifics of Islam since I was raised as a christian. So, I just threw out there what I'm confident at. But I can go back through your list and see if there's something else there I'd be interested in
- You could propose your own topic you wish to argue. Or we can still do the "God is" debate.

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#29
Yassine
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@Stephen
  I have asked you why it cannot reform?  Are you suggesting  that it can?
- Do you want to debate the topic? Or is this just to converse? If so, there have already been reformation movements in Islam, namely Salafism.

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@Yassine
The Hijab is a religious duty in all abrahamic religions
do you mind expanding a little more?

i know in the past it was normal for women to wear viels