REPUBLICANS in CONGRESS NOW FACE a TEST of their GOOD FAITH

Author: oromagi

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Double_R
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Voter ID laws are not racist and there is no reasonable argument to the contrary.
So if it is well known ahead of time that a new voter ID law will disproportionally affect black peoples and the law is passed anyway with no effort to rectify the effect… you don’t think that is racist?

If you have to have a state-issued ID to buy alcohol or tobacco, there is absolutely no reason why requiring the same is unreasonable to vote.
I’ve always hated this argument. Rather than comparing voting to buying alcohol, do you have another example of a constitutionally guaranteed right that requires you to attain a government issued ID?

Greyparrot
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@Double_R
WTF? Supply is low because there’s no more space. You don’t produce land.

Is this a real comment or just a pathetic attempt at trolling? I would be happy to school you about basic concepts of land value if you are not trolling as usual.

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@Double_R
will disproportionally affect black peoples 

Legal Nigerian immigrants have Black Skin and are the wealthiest demographic in America.

Specifically which class of Black Skinned people are you talking about?
Greyparrot
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@Double_R
example of a constitutionally guaranteed right 
Non-citizens and dead people don't have that right, The only way to ensure a citizen's vote won't be nullified by a non-citizen is through election safeguards and ensuring election integrity.

This is the reason why a majority of Minorities and Democrats want ID. To make sure their vote counts. Opposing ID or an equivalent form of election integrity is not only subverting Democracy and the will of  the people, it is also unfairly suppressing the very minorities that overwhelmingly demand voter ID.

Americans have a right to fair and secure elections and elections that are free to Americans only.
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@Greyparrot
Is this a real comment or just a pathetic attempt at trolling? I would be happy to school you about basic concepts of land value if you are not trolling as usual.
That or he’s in Commiefornia smoking pot
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@ILikePie5
That or he’s in Commiefornia smoking pot
Imagine zoning regulations and the scarcity of productive development affecting the value of a minor quantity of land.

Land wouldn't be valuable if you could just build a house or a factory anywhere you wanted to.

There exists beautiful land all over the world with much more picturesque beaches and perfect weather that you could buy for a few dollars per square foot. There just isn't any economic development anywhere nearby. The idea that people mainly choose to pay alot to just live in a pretty place is the most fucking ridiculous idea ever.
ebuc
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@Greyparrot
#56.......How many Trumpet Trumpeteer butt sniffers here at DArt?   How many would admit that they were a Trumpet butt sniffer, or still are a Trumpet butt sniffer, and/or,  will continue to be so until their  last dying breath? Sad lack of moral integrity on their part.

Some have good faith in racism, bigotry, false narrative, misinformation, lies and unnecessary violence etc as espoused by largest baby on Earth, the Trumpet, and clearly expressed at USA capital building  in 2021 as they best way forward for USA people.

I disagree with their approach.

 


Double_R
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@Greyparrot
I would be happy to school you about basic concepts of land value if you are not trolling as usual.
You aren’t serious enough to school me, on anything. But you are more than welcome to try. Enlighten me as to how democrats not knowing how to produce land is the reason people are leaving NY and CA.

Double_R
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@Greyparrot
Legal Nigerian immigrants have Black Skin and are the wealthiest demographic in America.

Specifically which class of Black Skinned people are you talking about?
The entirety, not the sub-group you cherry picked because it fits your narrative.
Double_R
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@Greyparrot

Non-citizens and dead people don't have that right, The only way to ensure a citizen's vote won't be nullified by a non-citizen is through election safeguards and ensuring election integrity.
Election integrity already is assured. Republicans have been obsessed for decades now with finding evidence of some kind of fraud they can use the as a pretext for these laws and have found nothing. The only thing that is different now are the limits of what politicians can get away with thanks to Donald Trump who taught the Republican Party how to gaslight their base and how much their base loves it.

But that aside, your argument sounds good because it’s made in the abstract. The issue is not the idea of voters proving who they are before casting their ballots, it’s the reality of what that looks like and the precision with which these things always affect minority communities. You’re not stupid enough to believe republicans don’t know this as they are  crafting these laws.

Americans have a right to fair and secure elections and elections that are free to Americans only.
Correct. Now provide the evidence that anyone other than Americans are participating in our elections.
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@Double_R
You aren’t serious enough to school me, on anything. But you are more than welcome to try. Enlighten me as to how democrats not knowing how to produce land is the reason people are leaving NY and CA

Holy fuckballs, are you seriously going to double down on the retarded idea that land is scarce? In America of all places???

Unreal. Enjoy the blissful ignorance that is the life of a gated lefty.
Double_R
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@Greyparrot
Holy fuckballs, are you seriously going to double down on the retarded idea that land is scarce? In America of all places???
Ok, you have to be trolling, no one is this stupid.

Come to NYC and show me the abundance of land you seem to think exists, or, perhaps you can explain how proximity to downtown areas has no impact on the value of land.
bmdrocks21
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@oromagi
  • I am not alleging conspiracy, I am reporting the Republican conspiracy as documented by a fair number of Federal, State, and Journalistic investigations over the years.
  • The short version is that FL contracted out the voter purge files to a private data crunching firm.
    • In 1998, they hired the lowest bidding contractor, Professional Services Inc and paid them $5,700 for a fairly typical voter purge list
    • In 2000, they hired DBT Online (then run by a flashy well known former cocaine smuggler) in a no-bid contract and paid them $4 million for a gigantic purge list. (which appears to be why DBT's services were 70 times more valuable to the Republican Government)
      • According to the Palm Beach Post (among other issues), though blacks accounted for 88% of those removed from the rolls, they made up only about 11% of Florida's voters.  Even before election day, country officials were finding chunks of thousands of perfectly legit black voters who were on the purge lists.
      • The lists were so obviously fraudulent that 20 counties simply refused to use the list and conducted their own purges.
    • The State used the same firm to try to purge lists in 2004 and were interdicted by Federal Courts.
    • The ACLU sued Florida and Florida settled by agreeing to stop using contractors and use the ACLU standards going forward (thereby admitting the fault of the 2000 purge)
    • The bipartisan US Commision on Civil Rights found "that the problems Florida had during the 2000 presidential election were serious and not isolated. In many cases, they were foreseeable and should have been prevented. The failure to do so resulted in an extraordinarily high and inexcusable level of disenfranchisement, with a significantly disproportionate impact on African American voters." and referred the violations to the US Attorney General's office for determination of liability (needless to say AG John Ashcroft never looked into his boss's brother's conduct)
  • Investigations by the Miami Herald, LA Times, BBC, Vanity Fair, etc. documented thousands of legally registered black voters in FL who were incorrectly purged and denied access to voting booths on election day- in an election where Bush's margin of victory depended on 538 votes when counting was stopped by the Supreme Court.  There really is no question that Gov Jeb Bush's administration deliberately intervened to illegally block the votes of thousands of black people and that intervention alone caused reversed the majority of voter's choice of a Democratic president.
  • Republicans had two good reasons not purge Hispanics:
    • The Cuban (one third of Miami Dade) vote was reliably Republican and absolutely necessary to a Republican win in FL.  The purge had no way of distinguishing Cuban voters from other Hispanic voters but also
      • More Hispanic voters supported Bush than any other Republican presidential candidate before or since (40%).  The GOP had good reason not to tamper with Hispanic voters.  The fact that Hispanic voters were barely purged at all reveals the deliberation used by the GOP in purging.

I have a few points to make on this.

The first is that just because something has a disproportionate impact on some group doesn't make it wrong. Enforcement of any law or regulation will always affect one group or another more than others for a slew of reasons. Taxes affect Whites and Asians more than Hispanics and African Americans, for example. That doesn't mean taxes are wrong or a racist conspiracy. There is nothing inherently wrong with them making up that large of a percentage of the purged voters.

There may have been ~1,100 of AA that shouldn't have been purged, but was that incorrect purge rate higher for them? How many of other groups were incorrectly put on the purge list?

The reason that there was a large voter purge was in part spurred by the massive fraud in the 1997 Miami mayoral election, in which elderly people were
manipulated in their votes (hence the mentally impaired part of the bill), dead people voted, and nonresidents voted. So this came from a desire to enact voting security and ensure confidence in election outcomes.

The intervention did not necessarily go against the majority of voters' choice if it prevented more illegal voters from voting than legal voters.

Hispanics, at the top of their Republican support were still a net negative for Bush, meaning that targeting Hispanics overall would have helped them.

20 counties rejecting it means nothing. There could be a handful of reasons for them rejecting it. I'd imagine every democrat county rejected it because it affected their voter base negatively and they want to win elections.
oromagi
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@bmdrocks21
just because something has a disproportionate impact on some group doesn't make it wrong.
If that something is corruption and that impact is disenfranchisement of US citizens than yes, that is always wrong no matter who the group.

Enforcement of any law or regulation will always affect one group or another more than others for a slew of reasons.  
But the GOP paying a private firm to illegally remove tens of thousands of blacks from the voting registrars was not "enforcement of any law,"  The opposite, in fact.
Taxes affect Whites and Asians more than Hispanics and African Americans, for example.

Including federal and state taxes, the tax code likely “worsens” the wealth gap, said Kim Rueben, senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center. Local taxes tend to be flatter, eating up more money from lower-earning households as a proportion of their income, she noted.

Disparities are less clear when focusing on the federal code, she said. Higher earners pay higher income rates — but they also have access to “special aspects of the tax code.” That includes the rules surrounding capital gains and inheritances, she noted.

“For people starting with less assets, which on average black and Hispanic households are, it is harder to access these benefits in the tax code,” Rueben said.

“There’s nothing in the way the federal income tax is written that’s explicit about race. But because of the demographics and characteristics of different taxpayers, it can have different effects,” she later added.

There is nothing inherently wrong with them making up that large of a percentage of the purged voters.  There may have been ~1,100 of AA that shouldn't have been purged, but was that incorrect purge rate higher for them? How many of other groups were incorrectly put on the purge list?
The first list DBT Online provided to the Division of Elections in April 2000 contained the names of 181,157 persons. Of these, approximately 65,776 were identified as felons.   88% of this list were Black (FL is 11% Black).  That's 159,418 Blacks removed from the rolls.  In May, election official complaints led to the discovery that at least 8,000 people on the list had never been convicted of more than a misdemeanor.  DBT never claimed that more than a third of the removals were due to felony convictions and even that list was shown to be extremely tampered with.  Election day revealed thousands and thousands more on the criminal list who had never been convicted or only had misdemeanors.  Blacks who had been pardoned by the Governor were still on the list. 

The reason that there was a large voter purge was in part spurred by the massive fraud in the 1997 Miami mayoral election,
also by Republicans
in which elderly people were manipulated in their votes (hence the mentally impaired part of the bill), dead people voted, and nonresidents voted. So this came from a desire to enact voting security and ensure confidence in election outcomes.
Which explains why a Republican Secretary of State paid a well-established firm $5000 for a well-justified list in 1998.  It does not explain why a Republican Secretary of State paid a former drug runner $4 million for the super sloppy list of 2000 that "just happened" to remove 8 times more black voters than all other voters combined.  The company officially warned the State that its process would misidentify many, many legal voters and the State approved.  That is a crime that by itself won the Republicans the presidency in spite of garnering half a million fewer votes than Democrats.

The intervention did not necessarily go against the majority of voters' choice if it prevented more illegal voters from voting than legal voters.
Yes it did.  That crime necessarily overturned the majority of voter's choice as soon as it illegally disenfranchised 537 voters.

Hispanics, at the top of their Republican support were still a net negative for Bush, meaning that targeting Hispanics overall would have helped them.
Hispanics are the swing vote in FL.  You can piss off the Blacks because they were never going to vote GOP anyway but if a FL Republican pisses off Hispanics, particularly Miami Cubans who vote in blocks (the 1997 Mayoral election being a great example), Republicans lose Florida, period.

20 counties rejecting it means nothing. There could be a handful of reasons for them rejecting it. I'd imagine every democrat county rejected it because it affected their voter base negatively and they want to win elections.
Some county commissioners rejected the data because they found their own name on the purge list!

Let's ask ourselves honestly, if a third of all counties in GA or AZ had objected to a voting procedure as illegally disenfranchising thousands of white males, would Trump voters even care what the facts were?  No.  Fat Nazis would be scaling the walls of the Capitol with swastika flags and nooses in hand even as we.....oh, wait.



bmdrocks21
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@oromagi
If that something is corruption and that impact is disenfranchisement of US citizens than yes, that is always wrong no matter who the group.

Of course, but your initial post did not convince me that that was the case.

But the GOP paying a private firm to illegally remove tens of thousands of blacks from the voting registrars was not "enforcement of any law,"  The opposite, in fact.
There is no need to exaggerate. The highest estimate I saw was 1,300 not "tens of thousands". The fact that the firm was private is irrelevant. The government hires private contractors all the time for a variety of reasons.

And the GOP was enforcing laws on the books- they were removing people flagged as being felons, mentally incompetent, etc. Now was their enforcement of that law incompetent? To some degree, yes, as there were people removed that shouldn't have been.

Including federal and state taxes, the tax code likely “worsens” the wealth gap, said Kim Rueben, senior fellow at the Tax Policy Center. Local taxes tend to be flatter, eating up more money from lower-earning households as a proportion of their income, she noted.

Disparities are less clear when focusing on the federal code, she said. Higher earners pay higher income rates — but they also have access to “special aspects of the tax code.” That includes the rules surrounding capital gains and inheritances, she noted.

“For people starting with less assets, which on average black and Hispanic households are, it is harder to access these benefits in the tax code,” Rueben said.

“There’s nothing in the way the federal income tax is written that’s explicit about race. But because of the demographics and characteristics of different taxpayers, it can have different effects,” she later added.
That is a pretty poor interpretation of the tax code. The capital gains taxes are a double tax- after the richer people pay the higher tax rates on the regular income, they are paying taxes on that money again after they invest after-tax dollars and make money.

Inheritances are also not taxed for a good reason- the money used to buy the houses, investments, land, etc were all bought with after-tax dollars. Why tax somebody for dying?

That is a clearly partisan reading of things to call it "special aspects of the tax code". The Tax Policy Center over a decade ago showed that 47% of Americans did not pay income taxes.

Paying no taxes at all seems like more of a "special aspect of the tax code" than "paying lower rates the second time you get taxed".

The first list DBT Online provided to the Division of Elections in April 2000 contained the names of 181,157 persons. Of these, approximately 65,776 were identified as felons.   88% of this list were Black (FL is 11% Black).  That's 159,418 Blacks removed from the rolls.  In May, election official complaints led to the discovery that at least 8,000 people on the list had never been convicted of more than a misdemeanor.  DBT never claimed that more than a third of the removals were due to felony convictions and even that list was shown to be extremely tampered with.  Election day revealed thousands and thousands more on the criminal list who had never been convicted or only had misdemeanors.  Blacks who had been pardoned by the Governor were still on the list. 
FL is 11% Black, but I fail to see why you think that is relevant. 48% of Florida's prison population is also Black. So obviously, we would expect a much larger percent of the people taken off of the list to also be Black, yes?

While that 88% number sounds a little high, I don't know what percent of felons, mentally incompetent, etc. were on the voting rolls by race. And of those 8,000 that had not been convicted of even a misdemeanor, I still don't know the race of them. It could have been proportionate to the amount that were rightly taken off, which would suggest incompetence instead of conspiracy.

Just because a disparity exists doesn't by itself suggest any wrongdoing.

That is a crime that by itself won the Republicans the presidency in spite of garnering half a million fewer votes than Democrats.

That is irrelevant because we have an electoral college. I've never been one to support mob rule, anyway. If you do, that's your prerogative.

Hispanics are the swing vote in FL.  You can piss off the Blacks because they were never going to vote GOP anyway but if a FL Republican pisses off Hispanics, particularly Miami Cubans who vote in blocks (the 1997 Mayoral election being a great example), Republicans lose Florida, period.

Eh, I'll give that one to you. You can't piss them off. But I would doubt that removing felons from the voting rolls would piss them off.

Let's ask ourselves honestly, if a third of all counties in GA or AZ had objected to a voting procedure as illegally disenfranchising thousands of white males, would Trump voters even care what the facts were?  No.  Fat Nazis would be scaling the walls of the Capitol with swastika flags and nooses in hand even as we.....oh, wait.

I don't see how Boomers taking selfies in the Capitol is relevant. I don't care what Trump voters think. Do people get pissed when elections don't go their way? The answer is quite obvious.

Heck, commies even riot over something as insignificant as a career criminal OD'ing on fentanyl.