During Christmas time, the Independent was looking for a seasonal image and found a heart-warmingly ecumenical one at a school nativity play. The Three Wise Men were played by, as the caption glowingly stated, Shadbreet (a Sikh), Musharraf (a Muslim) and Adele (a Christian), all aged four. Perhaps one could call this a "charming" image, demonstrating "diversity at it's peak". I beg to differ. In what world does labelling four-year-old children's with the cosmic and theological opinions of which they had no choosing? To demonstrate the issue, imagine the same photograph, but with the caption as follows: Shadbreet (Democrat), Musharraf (Republican) and Adele (Communist) aged 4.
Religious children do not exist.
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114
If kids can call themselves transgender at 4 I don't see why they can't call themselves Christian or Muslim or democrat or libertarian. After talking to the child for a few minutes I'm sure you could establish whether he has his own views or his parents.
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@Bones
Are you even around small children enough to know what thoughts they have, on their own? Apparently not. Prepare to be shocked.
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@fauxlaw
Are you even around small children enough to know what thoughts they have, on their own?
How do you mean? Like children that are around strict religious parents from day one and that have more than likely forced fed their children their own religious beliefs and ideology? As in Muslim babies are said to be ' born` Muslim.
Apparently not. Prepare to be shocked.
I wouldn't put anything past religious fanatics and the only thing that shocks me these days is but the fact that nothing shocks me anymore .
There are few ex Christians here that admit to being indoctrinated by their parents religious beliefs systems and then being disowned when they had grown up to have their own thoughts and opinions about religion...
There again the ` lord ' does say hate your own children if you want to follow him, doesn't he.
@stephen
Did I mention one word about religion or God, or whatever else doesn't float your boat? One-track mind. Bitch, bitch, bitch.
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@fauxlaw
Did I mention one word about religion or God
Oh stop it, FFS!
The thread is about children in regards to religion.
Are you trying to tell us that you were talking completely off topic with your first post about something entirely different to that which is suggested by the OP?
You must think that we was all born yesterday, sunshine. You are a real tit when your are caught cold aren't you.
AND I did ask you; "How do you mean"?
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@Bones
Religious children do not exist.
Not until their parents and their parents church get hold on them, I'm afraid,Bones.
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@Polytheist-Witch
After talking to the child for a few minutes I'm sure you could establish whether he has his own views or his parents.
I highly doubt this. What I do know is that kids are very impressionable and that they would believe anything you tell them. So even if you ask a 4 year old about their religion and they seem convicted of their religion, the question then becomes, how much of this has been conditioned by their parents?
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@fauxlaw
Are you even around small children enough to know what thoughts they have, on their own? Apparently not. Prepare to be shocked.
Thanks for ignoring my post. Tell me, how can a little child know that they are a Christian, any more than they could possibly know that they are a Marxist?
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@Bones
Socialized children do not exist without benefit of a socializing force in their lives. A child wouldn't become verbal without a language guide. But a child born into an ethnic identity has that identity even before he knows it, and even if he doesn't like it.
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@Bones
I did not ignore your post at all. You are making claims about children without the benefit of personal experience, or you would have replied with that experience. Are you not finished growing up, yourself [your profile is categorically unknown on the subject, which speaks for itself].
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@fauxlaw
I did not ignore your post at all. You are making claims about children without the benefit of personal experience, or you would have replied with that experience.
You did. I am making claims about children which should seem very obvious. Tell me, what would your reaction be if the caption read Shadbreet (Democrat), Musharraf (Republican) and Adele (Communist) aged 4.
Are you not finished growing up, yourself [your profile is categorically unknown on the subject, which speaks for itself].
Well the state of me being alive and able to respond clearly means that I have not finished growing up.
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@Bones
Well then that should be true for anything of 4-year-old thinks.
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@Bones
A persons religion might have many contributing factors. What is true is that they are not born into a vacuum. Yet at the end of a day what determines whether someone is religious or not? Is it their own individual self or the environment around them or is it something else? In the West we tend to suggest it is an individual thing. In other places there are other determinants- including country of origin, gender, wealth, etc.
I think making a blanket statement about someone’s religiosity or not is erroneous.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Exactly, that's why we should avoid teaching faith based things to children. It would be more effective to teach children maths and language, or other uncontroversial objectively true facts. Even the most hard core priest would have to concede that faith plays a major role in belief in religion.
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@Bones
A child's database becomes established relative to it's immediate environment.
And at 4 years of age , children are highly susceptible to indoctrination.
So religiously conditioned children do exist.
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@Bones
Then we should avoid teaching everything to children actually let's take kids and put them in a facility and let the state raise them completely neutral with no personality.
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@Bones
Exactly, that's why we should avoid teaching faith based things to children. It would be more effective to teach children maths and language, or other uncontroversial objectively true facts.
Well, when a child is dying from cancer it is good for them to believe that there is a loving God and and a joyful afterlife.
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@FLRW
One has nothing to do with the other. No one is asking dying kids to do math either. Kids get math and science at school. If you don't want parents influencing kids put them in homes and let the state raise them.
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@Bones
Do you ignore, then, the prudence of teaching a child what faith is, and how it works? Faith is not synonymous with belief, nor religion. Faith is a concept of how to determine what ideas are true and that which is not true. A child can learn and apply that much. In fact, they can do it more easily than can adults.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Then we should avoid teaching everything to children actually let's take kids and put them in a facility and let the state raise them completely neutral with no personality.
A straw man if there ever once was. Therefore, I must respond with my initial statement
It would be more effective to teach children maths and language, or other uncontroversial objectively true facts. Even the most hard core priest would have to concede that faith plays a major role in belief in religion.
What is your personal opinion on labelling four year olds as Marxists or republicans?
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@fauxlaw
Do you ignore, then, the prudence of teaching a child what faith is, and how it works? Faith is not synonymous with belief, nor religion.
Faith is defined as "a strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof". As such, we should teach faith as what it is, that is, to believe in something regardless of and irrespective of evidence.
Faith is a concept of how to determine what ideas are true and that which is not true.
No, that is called evidence.
A child can learn and apply that much. In fact, they can do it more easily than can adults.
I highly doubt that. Do you really think that a little child is better equipped to face difficult question like the legitimacy of religion better than mature minded adults? A child's brain is malleable and can be made to believe anything that is fed into it. If you told a child that there was a tea pot revolving the earth, they would believe it. However, if you told an adult the same thing, they would ask for evidence. Reliance of faith at a young age removes this critical reasoning skill.
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@Tradesecret
A persons religion might have many contributing factors.
Do you find it interesting countries almost always have a dominating religion? 65 percent of people in America are Christians, while countries such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Syria are made up of more 81%-100% of Islam's? Does this not show that the country you are born in has a significant influence on the religion you will become? If Christianity was really true, why is it that there are so many Islams, who just so happen to be far away enough so that they are not endocrined at birth?
Yet at the end of a day what determines whether someone is religious or not?
I argue that it is what is taught to a young child. If you repeat over and over that the Christian God is real to a little child, you can be sure that they will believe you without question. Like wise, if you whisper into a child's ear that Allah will spare them in the afterlife, an identical effect will be gauged, just with a different God.
All in all, what is your view on Marxist children?
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@Bones
You offer a secular, dictionary definition of faith. From Hebrews 11: 1 - "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." There is a far greater power involved here than mere belief, but I don'r expect a secularist to understand a thing about that. Belief compels no one to do anything about it. Faith, on the other hand, does require action. by virtue of the first items described; something hoped for. One cannot hope for something with acting on it to achieve it. That is the distinction between wishing for something and hoping for it. By the work performed to realize the hope, realize the evidence, that is, to present "unseen," as something achieved in seeing. Wishing will never accomplish that, and mere belief, if more is not applied, will never accomplish it. Doubt all you like. Even a young child can accomplish this. They just need to be taught how it is done and they can do it, themselves. You could, too, but doubt can have no purchase on your effort. And you will never know until you try it, with real intent.
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@fauxlaw
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for"
There is not doubt that all would hope for an all loving being who cares about them. However, conviction does not equate to reality. Just because one really really hopes that there is a God, this in no way effects the reality of whether God exits.
There is a far greater power involved here than mere belief, but I don'r expect a secularist to understand a thing about that.
Belief, I believe, is the effect of being convinced. Whether that be through observable metrics, personal experience or "faith", belief is the result of being convinced. Regardless of whether the evidence is sound, if one buys it, it believe it, hence belief.
By the work performed to realize the hope, realize the evidence, that is, to present "unseen," as something achieved in seeing.
Again, my "hoping" that there is a God does not change the fact that there is/isn't one. Moreover, with this logic, I could justify any religion of which operates on faith. What you have said can be used as support for Christianity, Islam and every single other religion that requires faith.
You could, too, but doubt can have no purchase on your effort. And you will never know until you try it, with real intent.
If you were to convert someone to Christianity, what would you say to them. I am open minded to change, but from my perspective, there seems to be a cumbersome amount of evidence suggesting no God. Really try and consider this from my point of view. I am a same human being who is capable of ordinary emotions. Why would I not want an all loving God? Why would I not want to know that all my good deeds are seen be someone and contribute to me being in the afterlife? Do you think that the idea of eternal bliss does not intrigue me? There has to be serious evidence to persuade anyone to believe that this happiness is impossible.
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@Bones
However, conviction does not equate to reality
There is an element you obviously miss in the verbiage of the definition of faith as given in Hebrews. For faith to yield evidence that is unseen to the unbelievers, the hope, the faith necessary must be invested in things which are true. That is the payoff of faith verses belief. Faith only operates in things which are already true, but not known, not understood, not seen. If I tried the intent of applying faith to a notion that the sun rises in the west, my efforts would fail because it is not true. That is the true test of faith; it will always yield that which is only true. Therefore, can I find out for myself that God exists? Yes, and I have. You ask me to prove it, I reply that you must do as I did, and many others, to realize it is true. If you don't want to go through the effort, it is not going to be handed to you on a silver platter.
In other words, what some Christians will tell you, that works are not necessary to perform, that the grace of Christ, and the recognition of it is all that needs to be expressed. Hogwah. Faith demands work, otherwise this would be an easy exercise to only believe. And plenty of people are satisfied with that weak effort. People don't like to be told they must work for something. It is otherwise called entitlement. Nope, not how God works [yeah, he does, too.]
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@Bones
Already answered.
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@Polytheist-Witch
If kids can call themselves transgender at 4 I don't see why they can't call themselves Christian or Muslim or democrat or libertarian. After talking to the child for a few minutes I'm sure you could establish whether he has his own views or his parents.Well then that should be true for anything of 4-year-old thinks.Then we should avoid teaching everything to children actually let's take kids and put them in a facility and let the state raise them completely neutral with no personality.One has nothing to do with the other. No one is asking dying kids to do math either. Kids get math and science at school. If you don't want parents influencing kids put them in homes and let the state raise them.Already answered.
Here's everything you've said. Tell me where the word Marxist comes up.
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@fauxlaw
In a one line no BS sentence, define faith.
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@Bones
You trifle with things you do not understand, a dangerous attitude. I'm serious. Faith is to hope for things which are not seen, but which are true. It, therefore, comprises a six sense. Would you deny the five with which you are familiar? Do you deny these five mostly exist in other animals? Do you deny the ability of some animals to echolocate, and others to sense the Earth's magnetic field? To sense where blood vessels are in other animals with precision, though they are not seen? Then, why not faith for man? Argue for your limitations; they're yours, and only you can rid yourself of them. AS I've said, doubt and denial are faith killers. If children can learn how to exercise it, and they do, anyone can.