“Everyday people want things and are told to stop following those feelings. For example in court a man loves his wife so much he can’t stop following her around or texting her. The court says do it again and you will breach a restraining order. The man keeps doing this until he gets out into prison several times. Or he sees her with someone else. I am not saying it is easy to stop being attracted to someone but the fact is people do stop loving others for all sorts of reasons”
I assume that in this example depicts the homosexual as the criminal facing charges, and the “wife” as the other individual. The only difference with this and homosexuality is that, unlike how in this situation the wife is escaping the husband, both parties want to be together, with the only thing keeping them apart being the court. In a loving homosexual relationship, both parties are satisfied, it isn’t as if one of them is the “wife” attempting to escape. To alter your example slightly, how would you consider a situation in which a man and his wife were desperate to be together, but as the court rules their relationship as “unnatural” they are forced apart. And not only this, unlike any ordinary law, if they break this one, they spend eternity burning in flames with satan.
The point is not about homosexuals per se. It is about every person in this world. People do choose to be attracted to others - and then they can choose to stop being attracted to the same person. It happens everyday and to deny this is plain nonsense. Every day in this world - people get married or enter into a new relationship and everyday - people separate and divorce. This is not rocket science. It happens. Sometimes people enter into relationships that are plain bad. For instance a brother falls in love with his sister. A married man falls in love with someone else's wife. A stalker falls in love with someone he is stalking. Sin is sin. I am not embarrassed by God's definition of sin. The homosexual, the drunkard, the liar, the adulterer, the idolater, are all in danger of Hellfire. Please also notice I did not say - they will all end up there - but they are certainly all in danger. My personal view is that there will be some gay people in heaven.
“Why would I want to stop loving my parents?”
Exactly, asking you
to stop loving your parents would be absurd. Just like how asking a homosexual
to stop loving their own sex is absurd. To them, it would be like me telling
you to stop loving your parents. Their relationship, at least to them, feels as
natural as your love for your parents. It isn’t as if they are feeling some
sort of artificial love, or else why would they go to such an extent to protest
for their rights? If homosexuals really could “change their minds”, do you not
think they would? Gays get bashed up for their sexuality, any rational person
who could change their mind would do so immediately. Clearly this is something
coded into their brain. As such, why would God want to punish something which
people cannot change, even if they so desire?
The comparison is apples and oranges. The fact is people do choose to stop loving
their parents. Children very often divorce their parents. For me to stop loving my parents is possible,
yet unlikely. We are talking about two
different things here. One is love and the other is attraction. I would never ask a homosexual to stop loving
another homosexual. Jesus tells us to
love not only our friends and family but our enemies. So, it is not a Christian
position at any time to stop loving anyone. Yet, the love one has for their parents is quite different from the love
they have for their spouse or lover. And even between lovers – there are
different kinds of love. It simple is not a helpful comparison in that sense.
Gay people do change their minds. So, it is ridiculous to
say it is coded into their brains. I have helped numerous gay and lesbian
couples through separation proceedings. They do stop loving each other. And
when it happens it is CLEARLY their choice. Hence, why it is nonsense to
suggest that God is punishing someone for something they have no choice
in.
“Yet just because they don’t want to think they are abnormal
does not mean they are normal. They might be but thinking it does not make it
so”
We share common ground here. You’ll be surprised to find
that I actually lean conservative. Though we have disagreements with the issue
of homosexuailty, I can see where you are coming from, as your views are
somewhat similar to my views on transgendered people. I believe that trans
people should not be referred to as their chosen gender, as this violates my
right to freedom of speech and jeopardizes common biology. Even though
something is programmed into your brain, it should not be normalised, as you
rightfully state. After all, encoded in the gene’s of men is violence which,
even though “normal” should not be encouraged. However, this issue does not
extend to homosexuality. Unlike the violent male who, through their “normal”
behaviour will physically assault people, or the transgender person who through
their “normal” behaviour force me to through out my year 2 biology text book, I
can see nothing that the homosexual is doing to me which causes harm. They do
not force me to change my language and they do not abuse people. They are just
two loving people who, to put frankly, don’t need me busy bodying into what
they are doing.
Well in the first place I don’t agree that it is coded into
their brains. And I don’t hold to the view
that men are wired to be violent. There
are many men who are not violent and there are many females who are violent. When it comes to understanding or defining
sin, whether or not it is something which causes harm to me or to others is simply
not helpful. Idolatry is sinful
according to God. Idolatry is just worshiping a wooden image or a bit of wood.
Sin is defined in the bible as that which falls short of God’s standards. Homosexuality falls short of God’s standards.
Two siblings – a brother and a sister could easily fall in love and never hurt
or harm anyone else (especially if they have no children). Yet is sinful. And from
my point of view and societies point of view – not acceptable. Loving each
other – and not causing harm is not the appropriate measure of determining
right and wrong.
“I might find myself attracted to Mariah Carey. You might
say ok you can’t help it. So does that mean I should accept that unless I can
make her like me then my life is empty and meaningless? Or do I have a choice?
Does the other person have to like me back? The fact is we choose who we are
attracted to and we choose how we are going to deal with that attraction”
The reason your attraction to Maraih should be contained is
because she doesn't like you back. Though you may be open to a relationship,
she is not. Therefore, in order to prevent violating her rights, you should
maintain distance. However, this is not the case with homosexuals. Both parties
in a homosexual relationhip are consenting and want to be together. Using your
example, imagine if you and Mariah were deeply in love, when some third party
of whom you have never met asserts that you need to be separated. This would be
deeply troubling.
My point was that attraction by itself is one person to another.
It is not automatically or necessarily going to be mutual. Using your argument above – why would God
punish someone – by letting them fall in love with another person – if the
other person will never love you back? If I can’t help it – and I can’t choose
not be to attracted then it is punishment. Yet I would reject this position –
because all of us can choose whom we are attracted to and more importantly whom
we are not attracted to. We can also choose whom we will love and whom we will
not love.
“God’s love is reflected in his utmost value of marriage and
family. You have not commented on that.
Because god values this so highly - it is why the sanction for breaching it is
so heavy”
But surely God can see that these people are desperately in
love and that despite their best efforts, they cannot change who they are.
Surely if God is omnipotent, he can put some sort of awakening sign in the
paths of the homosexuals which will make them realise that they are “sinning”.
Surely God could teach them why they are “wrong”, instead of forcing them into
a pit of fire.
God does not do things simply because people are desperate. We do not have God on a string to make him do
what we want him to do. He is no genie in a bottle at our beck and command. Your
understanding of omnipotence is not the same as mine. Yet, God has put the bible out to let people
know it is wrong. He has put lots of Christians and others in the world to know
it is sinful. Why don’t gay people
listen? Is it because God has not told them? No. It is because they don’t like
being told what is right and wrong. But don’t
misunderstand what I am saying here – this applies to all of humanity – in almost
every situation. No one likes being told
they are wrong. Human nature says – God is wrong. Or God does not exist.
“Or other offences that might cause a breach in that
covenant such as murder or assault or the death of a baby”
He also states “do not keep back training from the child:
for even if you give him blows with the rod, it will not be death to him”
(Proverbs 23:13) despite the fact that scientists have found that beating your
children doesn't work in the long term and can make children more aggressive.
Well actually scientists have said that so far as the punishment
is appropriate – then it does have both short term and long term benefits. God does not suggest that beating must equate
to abuse. There is a significant difference
between discipline and abuse. Between justified
force and unjustified force. I have read
the studies in relation to corporal punishment and understand them reasonable
well.
