How do you define "God"...

Author: SkepticalOne

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#31
Stephen
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@Timid8967
God is the one we find worthy above all others.  Hence we worship it.  It might be a superstitious person or thing. It might be a power or principle - but in most cases it is simply us. 

We are our own god - because we think we are more worthy than anyone else - we worship ourselves. 

I am the captain of my own soul - the master of my own destiny. The most important in this world is me.  

I am the center of my own universe.  Everything I do - is about me and for me and to make me succeed and go forth. 


So which is it ? "we" "us"  "ourselves" or in your own case "I" and "me",  or a "god"?  
We and us are humanity.  I in this particular case is me.  Or generally speaking it also could be all of humanity.  I think it speaks for itself.  

 So your are speaking for others then and how it is that  they define as god/s?  



I think it speaks for itself.  

 I think you should speak for yourself and not others that you don't know or have ever met.


I like that you believe that you are your own god but unless I have misunderstood you;  affirming the WE and US all believe that it is we and us that are god/s or is stretching it a bit and I am sure that there  must be many that would take offence at you claiming to be a god to the point of calling you a  blasphemer. I know that you have said that :

"I don't give a rat's arse about blasphemy.  I cannot blaspheme against something that does not exist.  And if religious people get upset - well good for them.  It is not my job to make people feel happy about nonsense".#89
And I agree with you. Christians get upset for the least of things from my own experience.  Such as when I speak of the miraculous ten years pregnancy of the "virgin" Mary?

But that said do you for instance ,  know how a Hindu defines any one of his /her god or goddesses?  Or do you know of any Muslims , like you,  that believe they   are a god.

And an after thought would be;  if as you say , `you are your own god` then as per the OP, how do you define yourself?  Or is this you definition of you/god >>>>?



I am the captain of my own soul - the master of my own destiny. The most important in this world is me.  

I am the center of my own universe.  Everything I do - is about me and for me and to make me succeed and go forth.









#32
Stephen
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@fauxlaw

Yes, I am definitely a polytheist, because there are innumerable Gods. God the Father has a Father who is a God, and there is his Father, and so on back into an eternity of past, as there will be of future.


And I just know that with those two phd 's  and being a student in ancient Greek  (something you have omitted from  your membership profile) under your belt, that you are going to prove that with facts aren't you?
#33
Timid8967
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@Stephen
So your are speaking for others then and how it is that  they define as god/s?  
No. I am speaking for no one else.  


I think it speaks for itself.  

 I think you should speak for yourself and not others that you don't know or have ever met.
I am not speaking for others. 

I like that you believe that you are your own god but unless I have misunderstood you;  affirming the WE and US all believe that it is we and us that are god/s or is stretching it a bit and I am sure that there  must be many that would take offence at you claiming to be a god to the point of calling you a  blasphemer. I know that you have said that :

Stop lying. I don't think I am my own god.  I put a definition on the table.  That is all i have done.  I don't care about offence because that was not my intention. 


"I don't give a rat's arse about blasphemy.  I cannot blaspheme against something that does not exist.  And if religious people get upset - well good for them.  It is not my job to make people feel happy about nonsense".#89
And I agree with you. Christians get upset for the least of things from my own experience.  Such as when I speak of the miraculous ten years pregnancy of the "virgin" Mary?

But that said do you for instance ,  know how a Hindu defines any one of his /her god or goddesses?  Or do you know of any Muslims , like you,  that believe they   are a god.

And an after thought would be;  if as you say , `you are your own god` then as per the OP, how do you define yourself?  Or is this you definition of you/god >>>>?
all people get upset about some stuff.  christians do - so do hindus and muslims - and so does stephen.   and perhaps even me. how would I know how a hindu defines any of his or her gods? nor would I know how a muslim defines their god. It is not a question that I have thought about much before secmer asked it. 

I am not defining myself - that is a pointless exercise - human if anything. But I never said I was god. That is your overactive imagination and paranoia working overtime again.  I gave a definition of what god was - from my perspective.  

#34
Stephen
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@Timid8967





Since I don't believe in god or any god, then I certainly do not consider myself god............ I am not defining myself - that is a pointless exercise - human if anything. But I never said I was god.


 Yes indeed and it was that which has puzzled me. You do define yourself as your own "god",  But that's the trouble with you. You can never seem to remember what shite you actually write and always need reminding. If you are not saying that you define god as "us" and "we" and  "you"then what the hell are you talking about? HERE>>


God is the one we find worthy above all others.  Hence we worship it.  It might be a superstitious person or thing. It might be a power or principle - but in most cases it is simply us.#16  Timid8967


So, does that  "god is us"^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ include you among the "us" or doesn't it? 



Just because I have provided a definition for god does not mean that I am suggesting that I am god.  

 That's correct you did, and you have defined god as  " we "  "us"  and "YOU" have you not!? Or is it a case of YOU not even realising what YOU say or write  ALL the fkn time!








#35
fauxlaw
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@ Stephen

And I just know that with those two phd 's  and being a student in ancient Greek  (something you have omitted from  your membership profile) under your belt, that you are going to prove that with facts aren't you?
So, it isn't sarcasm when you dish it out? Such as, by your profile, what does one learn? Absolutely nothing. You're a cipher. You're closed. What? Dish it, but can't take it? Nice.
#36
Stephen
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@fauxlaw
So, it isn't sarcasm when you dish it out?

 No. I can guarantee you that was pure sarcasm. Obviously you wouldn't know sarcasm dished out in any language.


Such as, by your profile, what does one learn?

What about my profile? Non of your damn business or a requirement of signing up.

I just thought it odd that you went to all that trouble and detail of informing us of all your qualifications , degrees, and achievements yet left out that you are  a student in the ancient Greek language#28?       Although you mention that you are fluent in  " English, French, Italian, and Egyptian hieroglyphs"  but didn't mention Greek at all, ancient or modern.

  I thought  "fluent in English "  funny, too . Why only fluent?  Are you an American that doesn't speak English as your natural tongue? Or is your profile  just bullshite?

And yes. I know you are male gender, I was being sarcastic about you, a male having a menstrual cycles. One only has to google  your  book  "Faux Law" that you also attempt to impress the membership here with  and one of your 19  ugly mugs pops up on Amazon.


Dish it, but can't take it? Nice

 I can take it sunshine. Now what about that proof.  Do you any at all to support your claim of god, gods fathers, father, fathers, farther ? >>>>>#2  fauxlaw


#37
fauxlaw
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@Stephen

What about my profile? Non of your damn business 
It's real simple: Don't leave shyte about my profile if you're so sensitive about yours. I could not care less about your profile.
#38
Stephen
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@fauxlaw
What about my profile? Non of your damn business 
I could not care less about your profile.

Then why did you  even mention mention my profile? #35 How many times do you need reminding?  Stones and glass houses, you keep forgetting that don't you.


And  your profile is public knowledge on THIS FORUM for all to see and read  and to see in the wider WWW and YOU made it so, not me. And   I didn't "leave any shyte  about"  unless you are telling lies about yourself and your qualifications and achievements of course.   Then that would explain why it was you forgot to mention  that you are a student in ancient Greek while freely and openly telling us in your DebateArt  profile that you are fluent in so many languages but didn't mention Greek.  

Now then, what about this proof?  Do you have  any thing at all to support your claim of god, gods fathers, father, fathers, farther ? >>>>>#2  fauxlaw



26 days later

#39
Yassine
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@SkepticalOne
How do you define "God"...

- God is the singular absolute necessary transcendent being. 


...and how did you come to this definition?

- Quran surah 112:
1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only | – singular
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute | – absolute
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten | – necessary
4. And there is none like unto Him | – transcendent
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#40
SkepticalOne
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@Yassine
Why should a non-Muslim accept the Quran as authoritative here?


#41
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@SkepticalOne
I'm an agnostic. But I have a feeling what many people experience as God, another person might call intuition, gut, or instinct. It's something you have to pay attention to, usually with a clear mind, and often times it's a muscle that has to be strengthened. 
#42
Yassine
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@SkepticalOne
Why should a non-Muslim accept the Quran as authoritative here?

- That's his choice, wether he wants to pursue Truth or not. But you asked, and now you understand that the God Muslims believe in is the singular absolute necessary & transcendent being. Do you have any objections?

#43
Timid8967
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@Yassine
You're quite a funny person Yassine.  

So what is your background? 

Are you religious? 

Muslim? Or something else? I am intrigued. 
#44
Yassine
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@Timid8967
You're quite a funny person Yassine.  
- I try to be, I'm rather a serious person in person. 


So what is your background? 
- Long story. Old member, maybe I'll make a comeback.


Are you religious? 

Muslim? Or something else? I am intrigued. 
- I am Muslim, yes. You?
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#45
SkepticalOne
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@Yassine
- That's his choice, wether he wants to pursue Truth or not.
I don't feel that answers the question - why should a non-Muslim recognize the Quran as truth? 
#46
Timid8967
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@Yassine
Me - non theist. 

I am a reasonably new member.  Just a couple of months really.  

So why did you leave and why have you come back? 

Muslim? Are you hard core or just living the dream?  Would you be considered fundamentalist or nominal? Is there a difference? 

Were you born into a Muslim family or did you come to it at a later stage in your life? 

Were you born into the West or has your family moved to the West? Or even do you live in the West now? 

Do you take the view that a person's religion is individual or rather than it is put on them by family, culture, and heritage? 

Do you think that the West is identical with christianity or with secularism? Or do you think they are both the same? 

Is it possible to be a muslim Christian? Or  a secular Muslim? 

I am asking lots of questions - I hope you don't mind.  If you would prefer to answer them privately - pm me. 
#47
Yassine
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@SkepticalOne
I don't feel that answers the question - why should a non-Muslim recognize the Quran as truth? 
- That's a different question. Answer: because it's the truth, or more precisely, the Quran is revealed by God to Prophet Muhammed.

- To establish that, let's first consider the following designations of the Quran:
i. Recited Quran: the recitation we have today with us.
ii. Conveyed Quran: the recitation taught by the Prophet.
iii. Revealed Quran: the recitation revealed to the Prophet by God.  

- The argument thus becomes:
P1. The Recited Quran is the Conveyed Quran
P2. The Conveyed Quran is the Revealed Quran. 
C. Therefore, the Recited Quran is the Revealed Quran.

- It is thus sufficient to establish premises P1 & P2 to realize the conclusion, not an easy feat, but achievable. 


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#48
SkepticalOne
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@Yassine
I don't feel that answers the question - why should a non-Muslim recognize the Quran as truth? 
- That's a different question. Answer: because it's the truth, or more precisely, the Quran is revealed by God to Prophet Muhammed.
This translates to 'the Quran is true because the author claimed to speak for God'. ...its 'true because someone said its true'. 

Ok. If you say so. ;-)

#49
Yassine
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@SkepticalOne

This translates to 'the Quran is true because the author claimed to speak for God'. ...its 'true because someone said its true'. 
- False. It translates to:
P1. The Recited Quran is the Conveyed Quran
P2. The Conveyed Quran is the Revealed Quran. 
C. Therefore, the Recited Quran is the Revealed Quran. [that is to say, the Quran is true]

- For which it is sufficient to establish premises P1 & P2 to realize the natural conclusion C. If you wish to argue this, we can have a formal debate. 

Ok. If you say so. ;-)
- if you don't understand, & you clearly don't, let me make it simple for you:

Muslims today––––––the Prophet––––––––––God–––––––––
–––––||–––––––––––––––––||––––––––––––––––||––––––––––
Recited Quran = ? =  Conveyed Quran  = ? = Revealed Quran
––––––––––––––P1–––––––––––––––––P2–––––––––––––––

- Of course establishing P1 & P2 is not evident. To establish P1 we need to prove that the Quran we have today was preserved *verbatim* as it was first taught by the Prophet 14 centuries ago. To establish P2 we have to prove that the Prophet is actually a *true* prophet who indeed received his revelation from God not a false prophet who made up his own "revelation".
#50
Yassine
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@Timid8967
Me - non theist. 

I am a reasonably new member.  Just a couple of months really.  
- Welcome to the forums. You'll have a good time.

So why did you leave and why have you come back? 
- Life I guess. I like to argue when I'm bored, that's why I'm here.

Muslim? Are you hard core or just living the dream?  Would you be considered fundamentalist or nominal? Is there a difference? 
- I am a traditional Muslim. I follow the Maliki school of jurisprudence, the Ashari school of theology & the Junaidi school of sufism. 

Were you born into a Muslim family or did you come to it at a later stage in your life? 
- I am as Muslim as they come in lineage. I am a descendent of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).

Were you born into the West or has your family moved to the West? Or even do you live in the West now? 
- I lived in many places since childhood, including few European countries, mainly France though.

Do you take the view that a person's religion is individual or rather than it is put on them by family, culture, and heritage? 
- A person's religiosity is largely social indeed, but a person's faith is an individual path. After all, we face God in the hereafter individually. In Islam we don't believe in collective salvation or collective damnation. 

Do you think that the West is identical with christianity or with secularism? Or do you think they are both the same? 
- The West has experienced more changes the past 30 to 40 years than it did the previous 2000 years, it's shocking! But I would say the Western Tradition rests on few obvious pillars, among which is obviously Secularism & Christianism, but also Liberalism, Egalitarianism, Democracy, Exceptionalism, Nationalism, Modernism, Scientism, Capitalism & Universalism.

Is it possible to be a muslim Christian? Or  a secular Muslim? 
- Clearly one can not be a Muslim Christian, these are exclusive doctrines. Christianity is about the belief in the Trinity, Islam is about the belief in Tawhid, absolute strict monotheism. You can't mix the two. A secular Muslim is a Muslim who adheres to secular principals in policy & administration, not in legislation. 

I am asking lots of questions - I hope you don't mind.  If you would prefer to answer them privately - pm me. 
- My pleasure. I will be happy to answer any questions you have. Thank you.
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#51
SkepticalOne
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@Yassine
Of course establishing P1 & P2 is not evident. To establish P1 we need to prove that the Quran we have today was preserved *verbatim* as it was first taught by the Prophet 14 centuries ago. To establish P2 we have to prove that the Prophet is actually a *true* prophet who indeed received his revelation from God not a false prophet who made up his own "revelation".
Whether the words were preserved perfectly from 14 centuries ago is irrelevant if we can't establish the words were given by a deity. I see no way to establish (P2) Mohammed had anything revealed to him other than the fact he said so, or more precisely, it was written that he said so.

In short, the provided syllogism doesn't address what I'm challenging. Regardless, continuing from here or not, I appreciate your efforts. 
#52
zedvictor4
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@Yassine
Manipulated by a 2000 year old  Arabian ideology.....Without choice......Basic tenet, different club etiquette.

Same old, same old.

Such is the predictability of the human computer.

Head filled with nonsense as my dear old Dad would say.

To be fair though...It's got to be full of something....Hunter gathering  and day to day survival has long since ceased to be our main preoccupation.

Though I expect that even back then, we used to give the Sun, Moon and Stars the occasional nod.

And then, some several thousand or so, years later...... Lo and Behold...... Some guy meets this GOD bloke up a mountain.....You just couldn't make it up, could you?


So where's this GOD "Being" then?

Christians don't seem to know.

Though these days, some Arabianists try and to play down the "Being" thing.



Here today and gone tomorrow....All knowledge dissipated in an instant.....Most probably....Though I would happily be proved wrong.

But I bet you can't.
#53
Yassine
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@SkepticalOne
Whether the words were preserved perfectly from 14 centuries ago is irrelevant if we can't establish the words were given by a deity.
- Indeed, absolutely.

I see no way to establish (P2) Mohammed had anything revealed to him other than the fact he said so, or more precisely, it was written that he said so.
- Oh, but there are ways. Let us have a formal debate over this. I'll be Pro & you be Con. You can prove me wrong there. What say you?

In short, the provided syllogism doesn't address what I'm challenging. Regardless, continuing from here or not, I appreciate your efforts. 
- You are making a lot of assumptions... The syllogism perfectly answers the question, that much is obvious. You are assuming the premises can not be proven! Why would I mention P1 & P2 if they are unprovable! 

#54
Yassine
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@zedvictor4
- I have no idea what you are saying. Do you got any actual points to make? Any actual objections?

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#55
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@Yassine
Oh, but there are ways. Let us have a formal debate over this. I'll be Pro & you be Con. You can prove me wrong there. What say you?
Maybe. Once I know more about what your position is (that's what I'm trying to discover now), we can have a debate.

In short, the provided syllogism doesn't address what I'm challenging. Regardless, continuing from here or not, I appreciate your efforts. 
- You are making a lot of assumptions... The syllogism perfectly answers the question, that much is obvious. You are assuming the premises can not be proven! Why would I mention P1 & P2 if they are unprovable! 

Indeed. Why would you mention P2, say it is defensible, and not defend it? Unsubstantiated claims have no value.
#56
Yassine
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@SkepticalOne
Maybe. Once I know more about what your position is (that's what I'm trying to discover now), we can have a debate.
- The resolution would be something like 'the Quran is true' or 'the Quran is a revelation from God' or 'Muhammed is a prophet' or something to that affect. 


Indeed. Why would you mention P2, say it is defensible, and not defend it? Unsubstantiated claims have no value.
- Indeed, why would I! You can find out in the debate. 

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#57
SkepticalOne
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@Yassine
Maybe. Once I know more about what your position is (that's what I'm trying to discover now), we can have a debate.
- The resolution would be something like 'the Quran is true' or 'the Quran is a revelation from God' or 'Muhammed is a prophet' or something to that affect. 
I guess there's nothing left to discover?

- Indeed, why would I! You can find out in the debate
From here, a debate is looking like a timesink. The questions I'm asking are pretty basic and you're trying to kick the conversation down the road.

#58
Yassine
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@SkepticalOne
I guess there's nothing left to discover?
- Do you have a different resolution in mind you want to debate instead?

From here, a debate is looking like a timesink. The questions I'm asking are pretty basic and you're trying to kick the conversation down the road.
- What's the point of defending my premises here if we are having a debate?? Unless of course you don't wish to debate, which would be a shame. 
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#59
SkepticalOne
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@Yassine
- What's the point of defending my premises here if we are having a debate?? Unless of course you don't wish to debate, which would be a shame. 
As I said earlier, I'm still trying to discover what your position is. Its possible I may agree with you in which case there would be nothing to debate. 

We can continue with 'what you believe AND why?' as the OP laid out... or not. Its totally your decision, friend.
#60
Yassine
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@SkepticalOne
As I said earlier, I'm still trying to discover what your position is. Its possible I may agree with you in which case there would be nothing to debate. 
- We can give that a shot too. My position regarding what exactly?

We can continue with 'what you believe AND why?' as the OP laid out... or not. Its totally your decision, friend.
-  I believe a lot of things. That's a wildly general question. Anything in particular?