Arguments regarding God

Author: Benjamin

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SkepticalOne
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@Tarik
cooperation and smooth social interactions
How do you justify the value of those concepts without God?
Groups without cooperation and smooth social interactions are less likely to remain Groups. 

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@Shila
The GOD principle.

That which initiates a universal event is predictable within the potential and limitations of physical laws.

So the organic was inevitable, therefore ideas of a supernatural deity were also inevitable and predictable.

Trouble is such predictability can only be predicted with hindsight. LOL


And of course, a supernatural deities behaviour is simply human behaviour.
Tarik
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@SkepticalOne
Groups without cooperation and smooth social interactions are less likely to remain Groups. 
How do you justify the value of said “Groups” without God?
Elliott
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@Tarik
How do you justify the value of those concepts without God?
They were the product of evolution through natural selection and they helped maximise human fitness to survive. There is no need for God.

To move on, none of your rather cryptic questions actually addresses the argument I posted.
 
The OP asked for the best arguments for and against God, So I posted an argument against God, I’m not sure it’s the best and it certainly it isn’t new, so I can’t take credit for it but I thought it might be interesting to see if anyone could refute it. Here it is again:

God wants us to believe in him so he should have provided strong evidence for his existence. We have no strong evidence for his existence, therefore God doesn’t exist.
This is my take on it. The argument isn’t asking for evidence of Gods existence. The argument poses a question that if God wants us the believe in him then why didn’t he provide irrefutable evidence for his existence, that is basically make himself known to everyone on this planet. The fact that he hasn’t allows for two possible answers. He exists and the first premise in the argument is wrong and he doesn’t care whether people believe in him or not, or alternatively he doesn’t exist.
Tarik
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@Elliott
why didn’t he provide irrefutable evidence for his existence, that is basically make himself known to everyone on this planet.
Maybe to teach the lesson of faith, I know that’s a turnoff for a lot of nonbelievers so I offer deductive reasoning as an alternative argument.
Elliott
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@Tarik
Maybe to teach the lesson of faith, I know that’s a turnoff for a lot of nonbelievers so I offer deductive reasoning as an alternative argument.
What is this lesson in faith, surely it can only be taught to those who have faith, as those who do not have faith would be unresponsive to such teaching, so there would be little point in it.
Tarik
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@Elliott
those who do not have faith would be unresponsive to such teaching, so there would be little point in it.
They will at some point, whether or not it’s too late is the question.
Public-Choice
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I find it funny that God literally walked the earth 2,000 years ago, performing miracles, raising the dead, calming stormy seas, walking on water, coming back from the dead, and ascending into heaven, and people didn't believe their own eyes and ears back then.

But today people ask for the same thing God already did 2,000 years ago and say they will believe in Him.

People believe what they want to believe, not what the facts show, when it comes to religion.

Just because God doesn't agree with their tiny little box for what God should be, they claim he doesn't exist.

Can you see how anything can be any more stupid than that? Imagine telling people Abraham Lincoln never existed because he threw people into prison and had people executed while claiming everyone had rights. Would anyone take you seriously?

Imagine saying Julius Caesar never existed because the Roman Empire had pedophilic government officials in it. Would anyone take you seriously?

But, suddenly, it all changes when someone says "God." Then we can completely throw out historical evidence, eyewitness testimonies, empirical analysis of the star patterns, and more because of pedophiles and bad things happening to people.

How stupid. Nobody in North Korea says Kim Jong Un doesn't exist because there is suffering in North Korea. It's because even the brainwashed members of the populace in North Korea, most of whom have never actually seen Kim Jong Un in person, knows better than to think that.

But with God suddenly the standards of evidence and goalposts completely shift. Secular historical accounts now become fabrications. The gospel accounts become people, who largely died broke, hated, and in some cases were tortured, "doing it for money and fame," and any miracle that happens today is instantly discredited because "muh science."

Science can't even answer if we have a soul or not but you think it is conclusive on whether a person raised from the dead?

Even moreso, whenever you isolate one of thse anti-God thinkers and give them a bona fide, science-defying, miracle, they claim it HAS to be ANYTHING else. Even if it is unexplainable. They assert science will magically figure out why it can't possibly be an answered prayer. Why? Why can't it be an answered prayer? He was dead before the prayer. Now he's alive after the prayer. He was in a wheelchair before the prayer, now he can walk perfectly fine after the prayer. The doctor scans show this. Why can't it be a miracle? It seems pretty simple to me. Prayer --> miracle. SOMETHING HAD TO DO THE MIRACLE. People don't just magically regain the ability to walk after being in a wheelchair for years through sheer willpower. Therefore God.

But you'll never get one of these people to admit they're doing this. They'll fight you on everything. They'll claim "it's different. My sources are objective. Historians don't lie." Even though historians in the Roman Empire were literally working night and day to revise history just like our historians do today. And even though the people literally worshipped the Roman Emperor as a god, and even though the people writing the gospel accounts had NOTHING AT ALL PHYSICAL TO GAIN from it. You know, "only my source is true." Yours must be rejected for whatever insane, illogical reason I make up today. Certainly not because of any actual evidence of any kind.

So, when they realize they have nothing left, they use "evolution." A theory invented by a man with a grudge against the Catholic Church that has yet to have been replicated successfully in any lab test and, in fact, faces the problem of numerous experiments being unable to falsify it. But, you know, it just HAS to be a better explanation than God. It HAS to be. Evolution is FACT. Even though we can't prove it. Even though no lab test has successfully replicated it. Even though 99% of scientists can't even agree on how it works. That HAS to be the truth. It can't POSSIBLY be something so straightforward, logical, and easy to grasp as God.

Why? Because of circular reasoning. Their whole argument boils down to "God doesn't exist because God doesn't exist."

Any and all credible evidence to the contrary is immediately thrown out because it doesn't fit into their circular logic.

They suddenly become the judge, executioner, and jury. They get to define who God is, what evidence is allowed to be put forward, and whether it is believable enough based arbitrarily on their feelings.

Even though, for LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE ON THE PLANET, this isn't how logic or reason works. It magically works for debating the existence of God.

And then these people have the gall to say they are too "rational" for religion.
Elliott
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@Tarik
They will at some point, whether or not it’s too late is the question.
They will acquire faith at some point, so what is that point, as you say “whether or not it is too late” would suggest it is in an afterlife when God makes himself known. If God makes himself known in an afterlife then they would not be acquiring faith as faith would be unnecessary, and it doesn’t answer the question as to why God doesn’t make himself known in this life.
SkepticalOne
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@Tarik
How do you justify the value of said “Groups” without God?
I take it you accept my last justification. Kicking the can down the road, eh? Groups are beneficial to individual survival (among other things). 

My turn: How do you justify values like fairness and equality with your particular god?
Shila
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@Tarik
For starters here is a list of nuclear powered countries prepared to deal with a  genocidal God and it’s believers.

India, China, N Korea, 

And you know this how?
Their population growth has outpaced the flood. Proof the flood did not reach their shores.
Tarik
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@Elliott
Theirs a strength in the number of believers.
Tarik
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@SkepticalOne
Groups are beneficial to individual survival (among other things). 
How do you justify the value of survival without God?

How do you justify values like fairness and equality with your particular god?
By believing in a God that’s fair and equal.
Tarik
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@Shila
Their population growth has outpaced the flood. Proof the flood did not reach their shores.
What is this flood you speak of?
Shila
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@Tarik
Their population growth has outpaced the flood. Proof the flood did not reach their shores.

What is this flood you speak of?
Genesis 7:4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

Genesis 7:23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark. 24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.



Tarik
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@Shila
Many self proclaimed Christians don’t follow the Old Testament.
Elliott
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@Tarik
Theirs a strength in the number of believers.
What is considered a strength is a matter of perception and opinion, it is subjective.
 
Assuming that this strength is beneficial, then  more believers would serve to increase this benefit, so why doesn’t God make himself known, as this would increase the number of believers?
SkepticalOne
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@Tarik
How do you justify the value of survival without God?
How many times do you plan to move the goalposts? God doesn't provide a justification for survival anyway. People literally die in the name of gods. You're asking for something your own view does not justify.

How do you justify values like fairness and equality with your particular god?
By believing in a God that’s fair and equal.

According to your holy book, your god condoned slavery and has/had a chosen people. You have a twisted notion of fair and equal. Again, your particular deity does not justify fair and equal.
Shila
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@Tarik
Many self proclaimed Christians don’t follow the Old Testament.
That would be illogical. The Old Testament is the foundation on which the New Testament gets its credibility. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the prophesies in the Old Testament.

But Jews reject the New Testament because they rejected Jesus as the promised Messiah.

Even Jesus quoted from 24 books in the Old Testament. Remember, Jesus was a circumcised Jew.
Polytheist-Witch
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Many self proclaimed Christians don’t follow the Old Testament
They shouldn't, the Old Testament is for Jews. Any Christian that starts about the ten commandments as far as I'm concerned is not a Christian.
Shila
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@Tarik
Many self proclaimed Christians don’t follow the Old Testament

Polytheist-Witch: They shouldn't, the Old Testament is for Jews. Any Christian that starts about the ten commandments as far as I'm concerned is not a Christian.
If you read the Bible you might have found the exact verse Christians used to justify burning witches.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Polytheist-Witch
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@Shila
Do something with your death threats or f*** off.
Shila
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Polytheist-Witch: Do something with your death threats or f*** off.

Why do you keep asking for help to continue with the Catholic ritual of burning  witches. Are you in pain? Then go to a smaller size.
Tarik
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@Elliott
What is considered a strength is a matter of perception and opinion, it is subjective.
 And so is yours when you say

so there would be little point in it.
Not all believers always have faith, some converted.
Shila
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@Tarik
--> @Elliott
What is considered a strength is a matter of perception and opinion, it is subjective.
 And so is yours when you say

so there would be little point in it.
Not all believers always have faith, some converted.

So why are they still arguing about God?
Tarik
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@SkepticalOne
How many times do you plan to move the goalposts? 
I’m not, your just begging the question.

God doesn't provide a justification for survival anyway.
There are some that believe suicide is a sin.

According to your holy book

The Bible can be interpreted in many different ways, nonetheless there are some people that would classify themself as religious but don’t believe in the God depicted in The Bible.

Shila
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@SkepticalOne
How many times do you plan to move the goalposts?

I’m not, your just begging the question.

God doesn't provide a justification for survival anyway.
There are some that believe suicide is a sin.

The Bible can be interpreted in many different ways, nonetheless there are some people that would classify themself as religious but don’t believe in the God depicted in The Bible.


According to your holy book, your god condoned slavery and has/had a chosen people. You have a twisted notion of fair and equal. Again, your particular deity does not justify fair and equal.
Tarik
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@Shila
The Old Testament is the foundation on which the New Testament gets its credibility.
How so when the two are completely different?
Shila
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@Tarik

The Old Testament is the foundation on which the New Testament gets its credibility.

How so when the two are completely different?

Together the Old Testament and the New Testament make up the Holy Bible. The Old Testament contains the sacred scriptures of the Jewish faith, while Christianity draws on both Old and New Testaments, interpreting the New Testament as the fulfilment of the prophecies of the Old.
Tarik
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@Shila
while Christianity draws on both Old and New Testaments
So what do you call the people that don’t?